Trouble at 1st inversions

[kaanguner]

Hey people... My name is Kaan. I have just started learning and playing piano. It's my second day and I own my midi keyboard for three. So i am really the beginner, newbie if you must.
I've found a tutorial which helps me learning basics. Right now i'm learning a song which is basically:
(righthand): C 1st inv, D 1st inv, E 1st, F 1st
The video says i should play the notes with my 1st, 3rd, 5th finger but i feel more comfortable playing playing the middle notes with my 2nd finger. (1 being thumb)
Should i train myself to play it 1,3,5? Would i be handicapped at harder pieces or would you call 1,2,5 a bad habit?

[rmbarbosa]

I dont understand exactly what do you mean with c 1invertion, etc...
With real music, one must choose the fingering that is more confortable namely if this fingering does not distort the position of hands and arms nor does it look awkward or extravagant.
With technical exercises, however, the things may be not like that. Sometimes, there is a more difficult fingering in order that one may something considered good to our technic (you may wish to have a look to the exercises of Liszt...).
For example: in order to obtain more independence of the fingers, old books of technical exercises asked us to hold 4 of the 5 fingers and play the other finger. Ex: hold 1-2-3-5 and play 4444-4444..... In this case, obviously you cant use your 2º finger because it`s easier...
In modern teaching of piano, theese old methods are considered to be avoided.
To have a good teacher will be very good to you.
Best wishes!
Rui

[kaanguner]

I meant inversion of triad C. Others are triads too. Sorry i forgot to mention it in the first post.

[1piano4joe]

Hi kaanguner,

Are these are the 1st inversions your asking about?
  
C   egc
D   f#ad
E   g#be
F   acf

If so, 125 is the most comfortable fingering followed by the common fingerings of 124 and 235. Notice that the 2nd finger is used to play the middle note in the first two of these possible fingerings and not the 3rd finger. The 3rd finger should feel comfortable on the middle note when using the 2nd finger (not the thumb) on the 1st note which is the case with 235.

Fingering these 125 is not a bad habit at all. Fingering them 135 is considered the bad habit for a beginner as many teachers would consider this "bad fingering".

I hope I helped you, Joe.

And Welcome to Pianostreet.

[kaanguner]

It's: EGC, FAD, GBE, ACF
Teacher in the tutorial seem a very knowledgable person actually.

Could it be his advice something to do with this last phrase of the song?

Last one is: EGC, FAD, GBE, FGB, EGC?

Now i'm skeptic if i should continue learning from the same tutorial.

Song's name is Lean On Me. I just checked a tutorial from youtube these cords, which aren't played by right hand as i'm doing now on practice, are played by tutor as 1, 3, 5.

Here is the link:

You can skip to around 9 or 10:00 to see the chords for yourself. Thanks for the help.

[1piano4joe]

Hi kaanguner,

I checked out the Youtube link you posted. This tutorial is fine.

In your original post I read, "(righthand) 1st inversions)". In the  Youtube video, the tutorial has the left hand playing root position triads.

So, I'm sorry but I am very confused.

What is it your trying to do? Is it to learn to play this piece? If so, then why are you practicing the chords in a first inverstion with your right hand? This piece has the accompaniment in the left hand and the melody in the right.

The left hand should be played 531 as in the video. 421 would be okay too.  Notice I reversed the order of the fingerings from high to low for the left hand. Are you actually using 521 for these left hand root position triads and finding that more comfortable?

BTW, just a little theory for you but the chords are C major, d minor, e minor and F major. These are based on a C major scale.

The C major scale is a heptatonic scale which just means it has 7 notes. They are c,d,e,f,g,a,b.

A root position chord can be made by playing every other white key from this scale.

C E G is a Root position C major chord referred to as the "I chord".
d f a is a Root position d minor chord called the "ii chord".
e g b is an e minor Root position chord called the "iii chord".
F A C if the subdominant "IV chord". Yes, another major chord.
G B D is the "V chord". (Major)
a c e is the "vi chord".(minor)
b d f is the vii chord which is a diminished chord.

So 7 notes and 7 chords.

1,4 and 5 chords are the 3 MAJOR chords in the key of C.
2,3 and 6 chords are the 3 minor chords in the key of C.
7 is the one diminshed chord in the key of C.

A major chord is often described as "happy sounding".

A minor chord has been described as "sad sounding".

The diminshed should sound spooky. It's what one often hears in horror movies.

I apologize for this in depth discussion. It just occured to me you might be a "Monkey see, Monkey do learner" meaning you don't read music. But I typed it all and I am not deleting it.

So feel free to ignore both of my posts, Joe.

[kaanguner]

Sorry for all the trouble i've been causing for you.

The tutorial is although is the same song i'm learning isn't what i'm learning as a practice.

I thought the tutorial was showing the 1st inversions of C, D, E and F but it was instead played by majors and minors of C,D,E,F themselves. Fail by my part, sorry. So the tutorial doesn't count.

Because i'm a newbie my tutorial doesn't ask from me to play the phrases i've shared earlier WITH my left hand, i think.
Surely in the real song that part would be played by left hand but since it's a beginner excercise i'm doing it with my right hand. Tutorial assumes it would be hard for now i think. And i didn't mind the tutorial was showing it with left hand because i only cared for finger positioning.

So your earlier post for 1 3 5 finger positioning being wrong for E G C, F A D, G B E, A C F is what shuld count for me.

What do you propose for me now? Should i continue from learning this tutorial. I mean after all he was teaching me through a what you call a bad habit.

And all the informations you'd dropped are welcome. I'll make the most of them. Thanks, really.

[kaanguner]

Something came up.
Now we're using the first "Lean on Me" chord i've mentioned again in right hand.

Phrase goes: E G C, F A C, G B D, F A C, E G C.

Should i use: 1 2 5, 1 3 5, 1 3 5, 1 3 5, 1 2 5
or should it be all 1, 3, 5?

[1piano4joe]

Hi kaanguner,

I would Use 125,135,135,135,125.

I am very impressed with your strong desire to learn piano. I get the impression you desire to learn piano through popular music.

It seems like your arranging a popular song and yet referring to yourself as a beginner? It also seems like your making up your own exercises? Wow! I would say you have a gift. I am thinking of a movie called "August Rush". Do you play another instrument? Do you have a teacher? Did you teach yourself to read music? Do you have any desire to play classical music? What about jazz?

You ask, "What do you propose for me now?"

I don't know where you are musically, although you call yourself a beginner and I'm not sure where you want to go with your music. Give me some more background about yourself and your goals and I can make some suggestions for your consideration.

It would be easy to say "get a popular piano method book and get a teacher" but I also like your experimentation, developing your ear approach, arranging and possible improvisation your doing or will be doing as well.

There can be much joy in an unstructured creative environment as opposed to traditional lessons where your doing scales and practicing what the teacher assigns/directs and/or expects.

So while bad habits are a reality so is your motivation/desire/creativity which drove you to this website and Youtube and your passion keeping you returning to the piano day after day.

Just some food for thought, Joe. 

 

[nystul]

There are some standard fingerings for chords which usually fit the hand best.  In some case you might have a specific reason to use different fingerings, but if you know the general cases it gives you a starting point.

Triads in the root position:  This would be the chords like CEG, DFA, etc.  These will usually be played 531 in the left hand or 135 in the right hand.  This is very relaxed position and the other fingers are in position to play the in between notes if needed.  125 or 521 here is not ideal because the fingers are kind of crammed together and not ready to play other notes.

Triads in first inversion:  This would be the chords like CEA, DFB, etc.  Most of these chords are played with 531 in the left hand or 125 in the right.   If you play CEA  with 125, your hand is centered pretty well and finger 3 and 4 are ready to play F and G.

Triads in second inversion:  Chords like CFA, DGB, etc.  The spacing here is mirrored from what you have on first inversions.  So 521 and 135 are usually the best.

CEG is a major chord, while DFA is a minor chord, but the position of the hand feels exactly the same.  If you look at the white keys they are all the same width whether there is a black key in between them or not.  From C to E there are 2 black keys in between, but from D to F there is only one, but still the chords feel identical when played (but sound very different!).  So once you get used to playing a few chords on the white keys they are all pretty easy to play with the same general fingerings.  When we start playing chords with some black keys, like CEbG or DF#A, they use a little different hand shape.  This might even cause us to reconsider the best fingering, although in most cases the standard fingerings still work well.

[kaanguner]

@joe
I desire to learn piano through any means to be honest.

Like i said in the first post i have found a tutorial and am learning through that.

Yet like you said i like experimenting and when that finger position striked me as unnatural and uncomfortable i decided to join a community and ask about it. And glad i did!

Just to clarify i'm learning the piano and the music through a tutorial without a teacher. So i don't even know how to read music yet.

I too dont know where i want to go exactly. But there are on thing for sure is i want to play some Chopin. His nocturnes are a must for me as a human being! That's what got me into piano to be honest.

Other than that i like experimenting about music so I own a DAW and some synth. So after two or three years maybe i would like to produce some tracks too digitally. But it wouldn't be anything mainstream i predict.

I just hope i can stick with the piano. Because i'm mentally a very unstable person i have such fear. But something tells me that won't happen! Let's hope that.

@nystul
Thanks for the information you dropped. I will definitely make the most of them. Thank you.

[1piano4joe]

Hi kaanguner,

Firstly, you said, "I desire to learn piano through any means to be honest". This is an awesome attitude. An open mind will take you far in life.

I am going to reveal publicly for the first time my personal secret to success in any endeavor one takes on upon himself.

These are the 3 main ingredients:

1. knowledge
2. concentration
3. attitude

That's it. But you must possess or develop/master all 3. Having only 1 or 2 of them will limit your potential. Developing these are your responsibility.

Secondly, a teacher is an important tool to have in your toolbox which can "hopefully" aid you in the above recipe for success. However, a teacher should be far from the only tool in that box.

Thirdly, I gathered from this and your other posts that you don't have a teacher and can't afford one. Let me correct you there. You ARE the teacher and only one of the many you actually do have. You have a library card? Obviously, you have access to a computer. You have many, many teachers for free online.

Fourthly, I'm mentally unstable. So what. Have you ever heard of David Helfgott? Geoffrey Rush plays him in the movie "Shine" which is about a pianist that has a break down. Seriously, don't sweat it.

Fifthly, I too don't know where I want to go and for sure Chopin is a must also.

I am going to suggest using your computer and googling IMSLP. Search for Czerny Op. 599 practical method for beginners. Use the Busoni edition. Fingerings are provided for both hands. You will learn the notes and their time values and more importantly get fewer bad habits.

This entire method is available to watch on Youtube by many different performers so you can watch the hand movements and hear how they sound. This won't cost more than printer paper and some ink. Although it's cheaper to just buy it for a few dollars, easier to read, it's organized and you won't have papers all over the place.

Granted the pieces aren't the greatest sounding but are an incredible value. Whole notes, half notes, eighth notes, triplets, sixteenths, rests, ornaments, scales, chords, arpeggios, double notes are all introduced. Your open minded attitude and willingness to learn by any means will allow you to use this method.

I would also recommend Czerny Op. 823 if you can find it online or Beyer Op. 101 with Ruthardt the editor.

A teacher can cost thousands of dollars a year which is prohibitive for many. However, twenty dollars can buy a few great method books. I personally like and recommend Bastien and RCM.

Bastien is well coordinated and RCM will expose you to different periods, composers and styles. Bastien costs a few dollars per book and RCM just a few dollars more at the lower levels. These are copyrighted and you won't find them easily online. Then there is your local library. If they don't have them you can request they buy them for you! I do this all the time.

I strongly recommend against playing Chopin by ear or by rote. You must learn to read. Can you imagine not being able to read or write English? Well that is exactly where you are musically so start today, at once, do not delay! This is what I propose for you now.

Enjoy your journey, Joe.

[kaanguner]

Thank you so much! I'm grateful!