The best fourth ballade you will ever hear

[theballade]

I am at loss for words.

[chopin2015]

Dude...just thinking about this piece makes me cry. Because I've been trying to memorize the last 2 pages in my free time and it makes it seem like I have no free time.

[j_menz]

Nice indeed, but not the best by a long shot. Bunin has the notes, but just doesn't hit the mark like, for example:

Rubinstein

Zimerman

Arrau

Or Richter

[vladimir_gouldowsky]

I am at loss for words.

It's certainly an OK performance.  It makes structural sense, is technically sound, and has a good understanding of the usual performance style. But there's nothing incredibly engaging or original about the interpretation.  

Hofmann, Barere, Richter, Cortot, Moiseiwitsch (and probably about 10 others) all bring a unique angle to this masterwork, and are worthy of many listenings.  

So obviously saying it's "the best [we'll] ever hear" is a depressing and ignorant exaggeration that I'm sure the pianist himself would not approve of.

[chopin2015]

OMG RICHTER <3

It's certainly an OK performance.  It makes structural sense, is technically sound, and has a good understanding of the usual performance style. But there's nothing incredibly engaging or original about the interpretation. 

I really think that you would need to listen to the performance a couple of times to understand what is beautiful about it. It is just not right to say it is not original or special in any way. As a pianist, if there is a performance you do not like or do not find engaging, then you could go back and pick out the low points in the performance. You should decide why you do not like this, and you should use a broad vocabulary to describe precisely why this did not work. What is wrong with the sound, and what is good. Find yourself in that performance, as well. Does the performer mimic other famous recordings? how so?...and so on. 

[theballade]

For those who doubt Bunin's performance, listen to it four or fives times this week. His phrasing is out of this world. His sense of tempo, rubato and dynamics are sublime. At age nineteen, he has already reached higher musical control than most professionals will ever reach in their lives. This is only my opinion, but a steadfast one. So if you please, for your sake, have a few more listens by the end of the week and get back to me if you've changed your mind.

[j_menz]

de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum

I'm not questioning his skill, but I don't think he yet has the depth required for a truly remarkable performance of this. I'm impressed, but not much moved. If it speaks to you more than the other performances of this around, so be it; it just doesn't for me.  I eagerly anticipate the performance he gives of it in 20 years, though.

[theballade]

de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum

I love this!

[danhuyle]

It's all subjective and every pianist has a different taste of interpretations.

I like Ashkenazy and Zimmerman. The one played by Yulianna Avdeeva, the winner of the 2010 International Chopin Competition, is one that's really well interpreted.

Zimmerman FTW.

[pianoman53]

There will never be a best performance of anything, ever. That's such an ignorant comment! Isn't the greatness and beauty of music that it can be done in so many ways? If there would ever be "the best" way of doing it, it would have been done - copied - and done again.

Moreover, I agree with Gouldowsky and feel the same way about the performance as he does. He is clearly a fine pianist, but is far from the masters.

[danthecomposer]

If I may interject...

I gave the other 4 provided a good listen first, before listening to the OP version.  I am unfamiliar with the piece so no bias plays a part here.

I listened twice to the first minute of each, to get a feel for the melody and dynamics/passion.

Then I listend to the OP.

Regrettably, I found it the poorest.  I also took note of the lengths of the videos.  The OP version is clearly the quickest (and they all start about the same time).  That says a lot.

As I always say, you should not play something because you can, but because you have a purpose to play it.  This involves having lived and experienced what the song represents, amongst other things.

I feel, as another said, that whilst he is evidently a great piansit, he has some years to gain experiences and play from the heart and soul, rather than just the fingers.

Enjoyable, however.

[theballade]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but if I may comment on them...

You shouldn't use his age to argue against his performance. What if the performer was unknown and you just heard the audio? Would you have that bias? I don't think so. Also, let's assume that life experience really does play a role in interpreting music (which I don't think it does), but let's just assume it does. Bunin's father died when he was just thirteen years old. This is a time in every boy's life where the relationship with their father is so crucial. Every thirteen-year-old needs their dad. In most cases this has a long-lasting effect on the child throughout their whole life.

This is a tragic life experience in itself. Who knows what other problems he may have had up until the competition? Who are you to judge him this way?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but if I may comment on them...

You shouldn't use his age to argue against his performance. What if the performer was unknown and you just heard the audio? Would you have that bias? I don't think so. Also, let's assume that life experience really does play a role in interpreting music (which I don't think it does), but let's just assume it does. Bunin's father died when he was just thirteen years old. This is a time in every boy's life where the relationship with their father is so crucial. Every thirteen-year-old needs their dad. In most cases this has a long-lasting effect on the child throughout their whole life.

This is a tragic life experience in itself. Who knows what other problems he may have had up until the competition? Who are you to judge him this way?

+1

[danthecomposer]

I've read enough posts by 'rachmaninoff_forever' to know why he +1'ed the comment so surely the case is settled based on that alone?

If you do not think that life experience plays a part in performance, there is absolutely no need to continue this discussion since the whole concept of piano playing at the highest of levels is beyond your comprehension; offended or not, that is a simple fact of piano life.

Even Liszt's masterclasses had him discuss experience and true emotion and there were many peices that he would not accept to be played, no matter how good the student, since they were not mature enough to attempt it yet.  Life experience plays a 99% role in playing excellent piano, 1% being techinicalities and fingerwork which would be so engrained in your body and soul that no technical feat is too great.

Have you read Cziffra's biography?  The same is said by him; I am not trolling with nonsense here so do not assume as such.

It is indeed sad that his father died young, but this Chopin piece is not about death.  You can't compare one tragic situation with every piece of music you ever play!  He could play the Chopin Prelude in E minor (the one with just chords in the left hand) since that is heart-wrenching and was even subtitled by George Sand's daughter on the island of Manorca where he wrote it, and others, as 'suffocation', along with feelings of despair.  Now if he played that whilst thinking of his last days with his dad, it would perhaps be one of the most wonderful performances ever!

There you are 'telling' us that your video is incomparably the greatest version of this piece, but based on what?  On your own interpretation.  Yet, there you are simultaneously telling us that our opinions are wrong.  I don't get it?

It's a great performance; all the videos are of this, but even without knowing anything about his age, I'd still say it was fast and the dynamics/general control of the piece's movement do not move me in the same way as the others.

You could just as well post a video of some 6 year old child 'prodigy' (the most vulgar term in the English language) playing Beethoven and say it's the great piece.  I would then say that the kid doesn't even know what year Beethoven was born, how many other pieces he wrote, that he was probably half deaf when he wrote that particular piece or the background to the piece, if indeed it has somethin of interest.

Then show Cziffra playing it who was indeed a child prodigy, but then went on to be invovled in war, escape, be captured again, his hands tortured, his son die in a house fire, and then hear that piece.  His absolute, unimaginable control of his hands despite torture (he wore a wrist band on his right arm to give more strength following torture) and his complete awareness and appreciation of Beethoven and his life.

But I suppose the child prodigy plays it better in your eyes...

[theballade]

I've read enough posts by 'rachmaninoff_forever' to know why he +1'ed the comment so surely the case is settled based on that alone?

If you do not think that life experience plays a part in performance, there is absolutely no need to continue this discussion since the whole concept of piano playing at the highest of levels is beyond your comprehension; offended or not, that is a simple fact of piano life.

Even Liszt's masterclasses had him discuss experience and true emotion and there were many peices that he would not accept to be played, no matter how good the student, since they were not mature enough to attempt it yet.  Life experience plays a 99% role in playing excellent piano, 1% being techinicalities and fingerwork which would be so engrained in your body and soul that no technical feat is too great.

Have you read Cziffra's biography?  The same is said by him; I am not trolling with nonsense here so do not assume as such.

It is indeed sad that his father died young, but this Chopin piece is not about death.  You can't compare one tragic situation with every piece of music you ever play!  He could play the Chopin Prelude in E minor (the one with just chords in the left hand) since that is heart-wrenching and was even subtitled by George Sand's daughter on the island of Manorca where he wrote it, and others, as 'suffocation', along with feelings of despair.  Now if he played that whilst thinking of his last days with his dad, it would perhaps be one of the most wonderful performances ever!

There you are 'telling' us that your video is incomparably the greatest version of this piece, but based on what?  On your own interpretation.  Yet, there you are simultaneously telling us that our opinions are wrong.  I don't get it?

It's a great performance; all the videos are of this, but even without knowing anything about his age, I'd still say it was fast and the dynamics/general control of the piece's movement do not move me in the same way as the others.

You could just as well post a video of some 6 year old child 'prodigy' (the most vulgar term in the English language) playing Beethoven and say it's the great piece.  I would then say that the kid doesn't even know what year Beethoven was born, how many other pieces he wrote, that he was probably half deaf when he wrote that particular piece or the background to the piece, if indeed it has somethin of interest.

Then show Cziffra playing it who was indeed a child prodigy, but then went on to be invovled in war, escape, be captured again, his hands tortured, his son die in a house fire, and then hear that piece.  His absolute, unimaginable control of his hands despite torture (he wore a wrist band on his right arm to give more strength following torture) and his complete awareness and appreciation of Beethoven and his life.

But I suppose the child prodigy plays it better in your eyes...

A couple things I would like to address:

1) "The best fourth ballade you will ever hear" is just meant to sell the thread. I didn't expect so many people to really think I meant it, as if such a thing was objective.

2) I would like to elaborate on Life experience. Life experience plays absolutely no role in making good music. The most life-experienced man in the world could be a horrible musician. Musicianship is the only factor that affects the quality of performance. Life experiences only change the way the music is subjectively felt by the listener or the performer. Cziffra's life experience, so tragic as you explained, doesn't amount to anything to the listeners. They all have their own experiences that govern their emotional response to Cziffra's performance. Even if a listener went through the same horrible experiences as Cziffra, does that mean that listener is destined to agree with his interpretation? Of course not. Musical interpretation is solely governed by one's subjective tastes, not by life experience.

[pianoman53]

So what do you want to say with this topic then? You start with arguing why Bunin is the best. Most people disagree, and now you say you didn't mean it like that? Sorry, I sort of lost it...

[danthecomposer]

My point entirely, pianoman53.

And re. the life experiences.  We will have to disagree on that one.  Whilst I do accept part of your response in that the listener's emotions govern their interpretation of a piece, no matter the history of the performer, I will not yield on the fact that a combination of technique so advanced that no feat is impossible and true life experience do not provide the best music.  The oldest man in the world comparison is baseless since he is not a musician.

Think about this:  Chopin is a household name the world over after 200 years and still going strong; if anything, he will become even more popular and more played so perhaps another 200+ years are going for him and his music.  Why is that, and more importantly, HOW is that when the guy died at 39!  Do you realise that?  He composed the majority of his works when based in Paris (bar the odd excursion here and there) over a 15-20 year period.  Think about that for a moment.  Imagine if he had lived another 30+ years?

How did he write music that is so perfect, it has touched the whole world of all ages for 2 centuries?  Is it because the listener allows their emotions to dictate their response (which yes, I agree with to a point), or is it MORE so because Chopin wrote music at times of despair and heartache; every note longing to Poland, every chord sequence and melodic idea representing his continued sadness and loneliness?

So yes, I agree that a listener somewhat 'chooses' to interpret a piece, but all pieces sound the same when played; what makes them different is the performer, and what makes one performer 'better' or more 'touch-worthy', for want of a better word, to the listener is what the performer can bring to the keyboard...

and what he brings to the keyboard depends on not only his technical ability, which anyone can achieve with enough practice, but life experience and comprehension.

I thus rest my case.

[vladimir_gouldowsky]

I am going to challenge the following argument:  "People who have a wider depth and breadth of emotional experiences are more able to communicate these musically."

I think we're really asking "Where does quality interpretation come from?" Obviously a complicated question.  I think its some combination of the following (non-mutually exclusive) categories:

- Talent, (musical and intellectual)
- Personality (temperament, drive, discipline)
- Training (teachers, exposure to good musical culture)

Maybe people who have had more emotional experiences are better than people who havent -- *holding everything else equal*.  But it's impossible (and tedious, and absurd) to surmise how much better Bunin would play the F minor ballade if he happened to have had greater personal experience with Loss.

But for practical purposes I think the artists who embody the attributes I mentioned above are going to be great musicians - and this can start at the very early ages.   For instance, Mendelssohn and Scriabin wrote works of incredible finish and emotional depth at a very young age. I'm not saying they didn't have "experiences" but certainly Scriabin didnt have as many at 15 when he wrote the astonishing C#min (Op2) etude as he did when he wrote his Fifth piano sonata. (They're both great works).

In any case, I think the person who said we were judging him on his age is making a cheap argument.  If I could have heard Hofmann play the work at 12 I'm sure I would have liked it more than Bunin's.

In short,  I know why I didnt like the performance, thanks.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

The performance is obviously technically competent and well-controlled but I'm afraid I find it rather antiseptic. I much prefer Samson Francois, amongst others.

[chopin2015]

I really just love this piece of music. It is the soundtrack to my life! I would give it to anyone who plays this piece well. Richter will always be my favorite, but he was a force of nature, unstoppable! This is still beautiful and I think the performer enjoyed the atmosphere he created.

[danthecomposer]

I much prefer Samson Francois

Thank you, thank you thank you.  I am surprised I have never heard of this gentleman.  I just read his Wikipedia page and this quote from him I wanted to share:

"It must be that there is never the impression of being obliged to play the next note."

Brilliant.  Tell that to Bunin!  I particularly enjoyed his piece and I didn't know why; now I read this quote, I understand why.  That's it.

What a great pianist.  Shame he died through drugs and alcohol so young; I thought that was a pop and jazz thing, not classical!

I will delve into his recordings more.

[chopin2015]

Thank you, thank you thank you.  I am surprised I have never heard of this gentleman.  I just read his Wikipedia page and this quote from him I wanted to share:

"It must be that there is never the impression of being obliged to play the next note."

Brilliant.  Tell that to Bunin!  I particularly enjoyed his piece and I didn't know why; now I read this quote, I understand why.  That's it.

What a great pianist.  Shame he died through drugs and alcohol so young; I thought that was a pop and jazz thing, not classical!

I will delve into his recordings more.

wait, which pianist died of a(n) substance abuse problem?

[ronde_des_sylphes]

wait, which pianist died of a(n) substance abuse problem?

Samson Francois. I don't think it's absolutely proven that it killed him, but his heavy alcohol and drug use is well documented.

[danthecomposer]

Yes, sorry I was not clear.  I meant Samson, not Bunin.

I would share this recording of Samson to give an example of how he certainly does not rush and indeed practices what he preaches regarding not being obliged to play the next note.  It's a really interesting way to say "don't rush!"

The way he holds back absolutely tugs at my ears and heart; it just forces me to listen and constantly anticipate the next note.

Again, thank you so much for posting about this pianist.  His style is just so unique and refreshing from all the metronomic nonsense I'm used to hearing on YT by modern pianists (last 20 years or so).

I should start a separate thread on this guy so people can discover him and discussion can take place rather than hijacking this thread, but just listen to a few minutes of this video and really acknowledge how he does not rush the next note.  It's truly a unique style.