Getting rid of mistakes

[wwalrus]

I'm currently playing Grieg piano concerto and the appasionata sonata, but I'm at a standstill. Technically and musically, I'm not having trouble. However, I make small mistakes (nothing consistent) and they're pretty random. I don't want to perform them until they're nearly perfect, without random mistakes.

Do you have any suggestions as to how to perfect these pieces? I try using a metronome and starting at a slow tempo, making sure it's perfect each time as I go on. When I get to the full tempo and it's perfect, I leave it, but then I have to redo it every day. The entire process for one page can take 5+ minutes, and, since grieg and beethoven together are around 50 pages, that would be 250 minutes (just over 4 hours), which is more then I intend to practice.

What should i do?

[landru]

I hope somebody else chimes in, because I am no expert at this - i.e. I have hardly perfected any piece...but I will give a couple of ideas.

First - take some time off from playing the pieces. They are in your hands and the muscle memory is there. What might be throwing you off are tiny micro-hesitations that have crept in - sometimes they occur and sometimes not. These are "learned" too. But what I've noticed is that after some time off from a piece (could be as short as few days to a week!) the micro-hesitations go away and you are left with the good stuff.

Second - There is an adage, you have the piece perfected when it is easier to not make a mistake than to make one. I am sure there are passages in those pieces where you never make a mistake - I know there are in my pieces. Try analyzing what could separate those passages with those where mistakes happen - is your posture different? is your thinking/relaxation different? is your fingering unsure?

[gyzzzmo]

Force yourself to play the problematic parts -slowly- and flawlessly. You could even take a brake of the piece to 'unlearn' the mistakes a bit.

[pianoman53]

First of all you need to figure out why you make them. Is it a technical issue, mental issue (i.e. lost of focus) or musical issue.

If it's a technical issue, you simply need to practice is slowly and all that.

If it's a musical or mental issue, I'd practice a lot away from the instrument. Play the music in your head, and don't let yourself make any mistakes. Make sure you can play it in your head, both while following the score and with your eyes closed (or whatever you do when you focus, but don't look at the score).
Most probably it's a mental issue, so I'd practice like this.

Good luck

[karenvcruz]

I had this experience of often making mistakes in Bach pieces.  I love Bachbut my dilemma is that since it is not an easily "familiar" tune to remember, I also make mistakes.  I do notice however tha when I do make mistakes in some passages, it was either because I did not memorize the fingering pattern or as pointed here by others, I losed focus.  My teacher would advice me to know the "pattern" of notes of themese first and keep repeating the passages slowly until I get it.

And lastly, one thing that has helped me . expression and interpretation - feeling the essence of the piece.  When this happens, I somehow realize the "mechanical" or technical aspects of playing becomes more manageable.  I would often term this as "being one with the pieceor music".

[danielekstrom]

First, you should probably identify the reason for the mistakes. If you believe it to be technical, go through the piece playing it at a normal performance tempo, but try to pay as much attention as possible to what you are doing. Once you get to a troubled passage, play it a few times and really listen and watch to see what you are doing and how it can be modified. Can you give any specific examples of mistakes you make? It could also be psychological. I know that when I am in a bad mood or am going through a stressful time, I will make mistakes that I would never normally make. Perhaps try some relaxation techniques before playing if this is the case. Even a problem as simple as low blood sugar or lack of sleep can drastically affect one's playing.

[stillnimble]

Sometimes I seem to make a lot of mistakes when I play pieces I should know very well.
I have put this down to tiredness, because when I do not feel very tired I seem to play with hardly a mistake.

Other times while learning a new piece I find that difficult sections which I have practiced repeatedly and thought I had mastered the section, I find that my fingering is to blame.
Obviously my fingers (muscle memory) had not experienced enough practice.

It may be worth checking these things unless you have already done so.

Stillnimble

[alanteew]

I love this topic. For me, it's the distractions. I'm distractible to begin with, but I have three daughters running around the house and being able to practice without being an ogre is very difficult. I'm thinking of setting up a spinet in the basement rather than practicing on the grand in the living room. But even when the house is quiet, I get distracted by the lack of distractions, if that makes any sense.

I'm technically at my best when I forget myself and get lost in playing the music. Of course, that's usually when there's absolutely no one around to appreciate it except me and God.

[lostinidlewonder]

I try using a metronome and starting at a slow tempo, making sure it's perfect each time as I go on.

I find that the metronome at higher playing levels should only really be used to ensure rhythm and timing is correct in small parts or phrases then it should be put aside. I think it is in fact detrimental to many pieces to play through entirely with a metronome since the tempo of music does not always run such unbending time. I think you might be using unnecessary practice time with the metronome if you apply it to everything.

When I get to the full tempo and it's perfect, I leave it, but then I have to redo it every day. The entire process for one page can take 5+ minutes, and, since grieg and beethoven together are around 50 pages, that would be 250 minutes (just over 4 hours), which is more then I intend to practice.

What should i do?

As others have suggested you need to understand why you make your mistakes. You say they are random and happen without any reason but I don't believe that many random mistakes can happen without reason. Record many times yourself playing all the pieces and listen back to them and follow the sheet music, this will give you a better overall idea as to what you need to improve upon. Remember piano playing is positional playing, so if you are missing notes or hitting wrong notes you need to review your fingering and economy of hand movement/positioning. Sometimes we can use inefficient technique to play notes that still produces the desired sound but comes with an increased chance of making mistakes.

Have some extra lessons with a teacher?

[wwalrus]

spam

[awesom_o]

I see a problem in the title of the thread and the mindset of the OP.

You can't just 'get rid of mistakes' if you've learned to play with all kinds of problems that are now causing you to have frequent mistakes in the advanced repertoire.

Mistakes can come from all kinds of different problems and errors. Without having heard and seen you play, I cannot be more specific than this. Mistakes aren't usually something you can just 'get rid of'. At a certain point, you've either learned to play without mistakes, or with so few that it isn't of much concern, or you make so many mistakes that it is a big problem, in which case you are probably playing repertoire that is too advanced.

You might need to go back to more intermediate repertoire and learn to control your playing better.

Avoid the metronome. You need to learn to develop your own inner pulse.

[wwalrus]

Couple things I want to mention:
My mom (my teacher pretty much) is a graduate of Juilliard college in piano performance, and she has a masters. She gave me the technique I have, and she makes sure I'm doing everything correctly. Based on that, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that technique is not a problem- along with the difficulty of the pieces.

To generalize my problem, it's really about consistency, which translates to mistakes. Musically, I'm very inconsistent with decisions about phrasing etc.

I see a problem in the title of the thread and the mindset of the OP.

You can't just 'get rid of mistakes' if you've learned to play with all kinds of problems that are now causing you to have frequent mistakes in the advanced repertoire.

The thing is, I haven't learned to play with "all kinds of problems." My technique is, based on what my mom has said, nearly flawless in the repertoire I'm playing. There aren't any variables that change.

[awesom_o]

First off, my apologies for making assumptions about your background. I had no idea your mother was so highly-trained.

You are most likely correct that it is simply a question of consistency, as related to your musical decision making, rather than any problems related to your technique, (which your mother says is nearly flawless).

In my opinion, I see this as a strength rather than a weakness in a pupil at your level. It shows that you are reluctant to ever play something exactly the same way twice, and perhaps your 'consistency' in the showbiz sense is suffering as a result of this inherent and deep respect that you have for the music.

My suggestion would be to really think about what a performance is. One of my best teachers explained it a bit like this: in practice, we never make the same material sound exactly the same way twice- we constantly vary it, change the voicing, changing the rhythmic inflection, change the dynamic proportions, etc. We are actually developing hundreds, even thousands, of valid ways for the music to sound. We then have these thousands of different versions as a database from which we can draw a single, fresh, original collage in the moment of performance.

Getting more performance experience will make you more consistent in front of an audience.

Just don't do the same thing I see so many young students do these days and play the same old program over and over and over.

Still, I'm really curious. Do you make so many mistakes that it really is distracting from the quality of the music?

Do the mistakes tend to happen in specific spots in specific pieces, or do they just really come randomly?

[wwalrus]

It's not an overwhelming amount, but enough to make the pieces sound sloppy. It is usually in certain parts. In Grieg, let's use this as reference: https://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/e/e4/IMSLP09213-Grieg_-_Op.16_-_Piano_Concerto_in_A_minor__Solo_Reduction_.pdf

At the end of page 2 (one of the technically more tricky parts of the piece), I might make a few mistakes in that passage, and sometimes in the descending scale in thirds at the end of page 3. Page 4 I don't think I ever really make mistakes, as well as page 5. On page 7, the big arpeggio I will make mistakes on on the way down (f#-c#-a). On the very first couple notes in page 8, I will over/undershoot the a in left hand (f-c-f-a which is where i mess up) and etc.

[wwalrus]

Another little thing: I've been getting extremely frustrated when I don't get something right. When I'm practicing on any given day, and I still make mistakes where I've worked through I get *extremely* frustrated- like scream into a pillow mad. Any suggestions?

[lostinidlewonder]

Angry and mad like this?

[pianoplunker]

I'm currently playing Grieg piano concerto and the appasionata sonata, but I'm at a standstill. Technically and musically, I'm not having trouble. However, I make small mistakes (nothing consistent) and they're pretty random. I don't want to perform them until they're nearly perfect, without random mistakes.

Do you have any suggestions as to how to perfect these pieces? I try using a metronome and starting at a slow tempo, making sure it's perfect each time as I go on. When I get to the full tempo and it's perfect, I leave it, but then I have to redo it every day. The entire process for one page can take 5+ minutes, and, since grieg and beethoven together are around 50 pages, that would be 250 minutes (just over 4 hours), which is more then I intend to practice.

What should i do?

Mistakes can happen in different ways - wrong notes, phrasing , dynamics
Although no human being is without mistakes, there are some things you can do to help.
1. Practice sections hands separate with metronome - slow as you probably already know
2. Change the sections you practice so you are starting and ending at different points - this is difficult at first and a real pain -but - if you really know a piece you should be able to start anywhere in the piece and be able to play. 
3. Only play thru once per session and then spend the rest of the time on step 1 and 2

[wwalrus]

piano plunker, that's exactly what i needed. I had never actually practiced hands individually (obviously a big mistake on my part), so I was missing what some of the problem areas were.

Needless to say, I just practiced, and it worked. Thank you.