Invention 1 in C Major

[qpalqpal]

I know you guys are probably tired of this beginner Invention 1, but here it is.

I used a Sony Linear PCM Recorder and put it at the bottom of my very very old upright. My bench is very rickety too so...

[j_menz]

First a complaint. The 6 or so seconds of silence at the beginning made me turn my speakers right up. Ouch! Don't do it again! 

Performance is generally good. It needs a little more time to make it flow - you still hesitate in a few places. Consider the question/answer aspects of it a little more closely and make them relate to each other better - not necessarily simple repetition, either.You also need to practice your ornaments and get them feeling more natural - currently they are not so much ornamentation as nooses. I think you start the rit. at the end a bit early and make it too "all at once" rather than gradually increasing.

Nice performance, and with a little more work it will be very good.

[qpalqpal]

Thanks,

The thing is, I read that ornaments are to be learned AFTER you learn the actual notes, which is stupid and is what I tried to do. Why not include the ornaments as the melodic line when you learn the piece? So yes, the ornaments aren't mastered at all.

And, could you (or anyone) give an example recording about the question/answer aspect?

[j_menz]

Glen Gould is as good as example of that as there is:

[ajspiano]

Thanks,

The thing is, I read that ornaments are to be learned AFTER you learn the actual notes, which is stupid and is what I tried to do. Why not include the ornaments as the melodic line when you learn the piece? So yes, the ornaments aren't mastered at all.

And, could you (or anyone) give an example recording about the question/answer aspect?

Because ornaments are not the melodic line, they are embellishments of the melodic line. You can add your own in different places, or execute them differently.

The composition is as if in layers -
Harmonic structure - cadence points, chord progressions etc.

Elaborations on the structure - motifs, counter motifs etc. -these respond to each other and lead toward different harmonic shifts in the harmonic structure.

Decorations - ornamentation added on top of all the rest, they are like little fluttering extras on top of the real importance.

Here, check this out
https://www.ted.com/talks/benjamin_zander_on_music_and_passion.html

Once you get beyond some of the other stuff, pay attention to what he talks about in relation to structure in the chopin prelude, as if to reduce the composition down to its fundamental harmonic shifts from B to A to G to F# to E, and how the rest is all playing around and decorating that idea.

.......

I second glen gould's recording, however for you i'll add.. this is most easily observed and developed where that is most evidently done by bach, bars 15-19. Here all there is is call and response and each subsequent motif is heavily determined by the preceding ones to create a specific progression. As you play that most of your focus will be on the motifs and how they respond to each other, not any other accompaniment because that side of things is so limited.

Try to bring that kind of "consider the accompaniment (counter motif) but lead with the motif" approach to the rest of the work too.

[qpalqpal]

That was a great post. Though I always notice that almost all TED Talks include people who talk like they know exactly what they are doing and fast. Its a little abnoxious, but it works for people today, which is great.

Anyways, I understand what you mean about the harmonic structure. However, Rosalyn Tureck in her book, An Introduction to the Performance of Bach, wrote that ornamentation is an indispensable part of Bach's music, and that it should count as important as the melody. I wonder what she meant. I personally have a hard time learning ornaments when the piece is memorized.

Thanks for the posts, guys
Esteban

[ajspiano]

It does matter, but do you think you could conceive it in performance as being decoratory..? for dynamic purpose, without making it louder so to speak?

Its can be in relation to how you give musical importance to a note when you are dealing with an instrument that has no real dynamic capability. Harpsichords have one volume, you created more sound or dynamics by playing more notes simultaneously or by using ornaments..

[j_menz]

Ornaments are a vital part of baroque music, and it just won't sound good or right without it.  They were used with a greater degree of flexibility at the time, though than is often the current practice (play exactly as written).  For example, if a piece had a repeat, the first run through would be played relatively undecorated, but the second run through would be much more ornate.  Tasteful use (and improvisation) of ornaments was an indispensible part of the baroque musicians toolkit.

I think the fact that you have trouble "learning ornaments when the piece is memorized" is telling. You are learning them as part of the notes of the piece - as part of the cake, so to speak, rather than as the icing.

One suggestion - take out a pretty straightforward baroque tune - anything will do - and just playing one "voice" of it (ie, don't sweat the chords/both hands etc) play through it plain. The think of the standard set of ornaments - trills, turns mordants and the variations on those - and just play around applying them at random. Don't write them in, or attempt to memorise them, just add them as you experiment freely. Some of them will sound good, and some of them will sound awful. Don't worry about that, but do try and learn what works and what doesn't.

The idea is to come out the other end with a suite of ornaments that you can use as you like - to any music.  You will then be thinking of ornaments in the right way - as the icing.

Then, when you go back to the Bach as written, you will have a much easier time, and you will also have an appreciation of what he has done where (and even how clever he is in it).

[ajspiano]

Some thoughts about the beginning..



..so perhaps the use of ornamentation on these 2 notes in the first two bars, very specifically draws your attention to these semi hidden V-I and IV-V-I progressions, which is all part of the "setting up the key" part, these are very straightforward progressions before anything more elaborate takes place.

Also, of interest -
https://erato.uvt.nl/files/imglnks/usimg/b/b2/IMSLP42098-PMLP03267-Inventions_Busoni.pdf
If you observe how busoni has notated it, you'll find that way gives a bit more weight to that harmonic shift, as opposed to gould, whom I think (from memory) plays it beginning on the upper note and a bit more of a triplet - it has more of a suspended effect on the harmony.

........

Here's another -

I've notated the cadence with the chord names, try playing the lower version, where you accent instead of ornament - see how it highlights this harmonic shift.

[qpalqpal]

Maybe a stupid question, but couldn't there be a possibility that on a modern piano, ornaments are not necessary? I mean it sounds baroque, but Gould omits some ornaments like long trills.

[austinarg]

Maybe a stupid question, but couldn't there be a possibility that on a modern piano, ornaments are not necessary? I mean it sounds baroque, but Gould omits some ornaments like long trills.

The real deal with ornaments is to improvise with them. This means putting them wherever you want, and sometimes not using them, like Gould did.

[j_menz]

Maybe a stupid question, but couldn't there be a possibility that on a modern piano, ornaments are not necessary? I mean it sounds baroque, but Gould omits some ornaments like long trills.

It's not a stupid question at all. IMO ornaments are still necessary, but not necessarily strictly as written. The modern piano sounds different and has different qualities to a harpsichord, and so the effect of ornaments will vary. Long trills are a good example - on a harpsichord they are quite crisp and needed to get a note to carry; on a modern piano the note will carry better anyway and the trill will be less crisp. Use your discretion and musical sense.

What I suggested above about experimenting freely with ornaments will aid in developing a feel for this.

[qpalqpal]

Okay makes logical sense.

Thanks for the responses guys! I look forward to recording more inventions and sinfonias through December.