"Taught" to be a racist?

[Bob]

Passing thought.  Heard the phrase on the news.

If someone is a racist, do they have to be taught that?  Imitate it, learn it?

Or if left alone, could they become a racist on their own? 


It's just the genetics vs. environment again I guess... Except it would take into account preference which could be a little more individual... Unless there are universal preferences... And it's more a matter of judging others based on some attribute, probably physical. 


I heard it on the news.  Then I pictured a group of kids doing something racist on their own, not being taught.  Kids can pick up any little difference and gang up on someone because of it.  It would be taking the next step to finding a common element among some people and judging them based off that.

[austinarg]

Racism emerges by itself. Of course, the age at where someone becomes racist depends on who raises him/her.

But we can teach not to be racist. And I don't see as much of that as I would want to.

[iansinclair]

I agree with austinarg -- racism emerges by itself.  In fact, if one looks at most cultures -- even the most primitive -- one finds that they always have a strong sense of "us" vs. "them".  In fact, in many languages one discovers that the name the tribe/group/whatever for themselves carries not only connotation of "us" but also the connotation of "human" -- and the others, by extension, aren't.

One also finds that this is true with animals -- although only those who work with them may notice it; herd animals, particularly, often react rather badly to animals which are different -- and, perversely, the more fundamentally like they are, the more important the differences become.  I had a dairy herd once which was mostly Holsteins (black and white) but a few Guernseys -- and they just didn't mix at all.

So it is necessary for humans to learn to NOT be racist.  And that can be very very hard to do (and is almost impossible in the current political climate not only in the US but in most of Europe as well; I don't know about the rest of the world).

[thalbergmad]

I wasn't taught to be a racist. I had to study hard for it.

Thal

[ahinton]

I wasn't taught to be a racist. I had to study hard for it.

Why did you "have" to? And what material did you study for tht purpose?

Best,

Alistair

[pianoman53]

And what material did you study for tht purpose?

Best,

Alistair

Usually it's knowledge that can only be taught if your parents are also brother and sister.

[ahinton]

Usually it's knowledge that can only be taught if your parents are also brother and sister.

But it is less than reasonable to make assumptions in any particular case; what I considered to be the more important part of my question was, however, why anyone might consider that he/she would "have to" involve him/herself in such studies, as though under some kind of unidentified duress.

Best,

Alistair

[nystul]

I suspect that people may be naturally inclined to trust and protect people who look more similar to them.  That is not a big reach from looking out for your family, which is clearly instinctive.  From an evolutionary standpoint it makes some sense.

On the other hand, a lot of the stereotypes and beliefs that people have about their own race and other races are clearly taught.  Go to a big city in northern U.S. and a big city in southeastern U.S. and you will see some racism in both but the way people treat each other in the one case will be completely different from the other.

[ahinton]

I suspect that people may be naturally inclined to trust and protect people who look more similar to them.  That is not a big reach from looking out for your family, which is clearly instinctive.  From an evolutionary standpoint it makes some sense.

On the other hand, a lot of the stereotypes and beliefs that people have about their own race and other races are clearly taught.  Go to a big city in northern U.S. and a big city in southeastern U.S. and you will see some racism in both but the way people treat each other in the one case will be completely different from the other.

I have no doubt tht this is true and that similar examples could be cited in other countries, especially large ones such as US. That said, the most fundamental problem with "racism" is that it inevitably carries with it a notion of antipathy in the form of assumption on the part of members of one "race" that they are superior to - and by association against - those of other races. Clearly, that not only lacks credibility but is also dangerous.

Best,

Alistair (a non-Anglophobe Scot)

[faulty_damper]

It's behavioral threat.  You band together if you feel threatened, just like fish school to protect each other from predators.  However, once that threat is removed, the fish break from the school.  Here's an article describing how sardines are fighting with their natural predators over food because their predators are so well fed by the aquarium staff that they don't bother the sardines.
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=5564

The same can be said about racists.  You'll notice that racists tend to be highly fearful of outsiders and are openly hostile.  These behaviors are a defense mechanism due to perceived threat and harm.  It's the reason people live in gated communities.

[gep]

Warning: extremely political incorrect message below.

Man is the only animal who is born with a strong group sense, yet has the mental capacity to outthink that limit. Unfortunately, many find such too great an effort.

I consider the whole issue of human ‘races’ utter bullshyt. There isn’t a ‘white’ person alive who hasn’t got something ‘black’ in his/her ancestry, and vice versa. Hence the whole issue of inferiour/superior races is equal bullshyt. What I do make a difference is where it comes to culture. You can’t help what culture you were born in and/or grew up in, but you can make a decision to what extend you choose to follow the mores of that culture (err, unless you live in such Hellholes like North Korea or Iran or similar). Now we do live (I’m hollering from the Dutchlands) in a world where the ideal of ‘all cultures are equal’ is preached, never mind the reality. But cultures are not equal, there are those who are inferior to others and those who are superior to others (how many people dive into their keyboards to write a heated retort here?). To put it simply, civilization means the acceptance of the basic equality of all people, utter freedom of mind, and freedom to be whoever you are and live however you wish to the limit where you hamper the lives of others. Any culture who does not accept that is discriminating on unacceptable grounds. And that has nothing whatsoever to do with ‘race’, colour, religion, political stance, younameit.

Unfortunately, the ‘racist’, ‘discrimination’ and ‘victim’ cards are drawn all too often where they do not belong. When we say the corruption is a rampant problem in Africa, people are quite often bound to reproach: “so you think black people are untrustworthy, you racist!”. Wrong. I said ‘Africa’, not ‘black people’. I was talking about the predominant culture in Africa, and I have no colour in mind at that point. When I say that the (sad) fact is that in my country some 70% of Moroccan youths has a criminal record, as opposed to 5% of the ‘native’ youth, than I am not expressing any resentment against Moroccans, but a rather great resentment against the Moroccan cultural maku-up which makes them willfully blind for their own shortcomings. And with the support of the (often left wing) ‘Gutmenschen’ who will happily support this ‘victim-reflex’. There are a number of problems associated with the Surinam contingent in our society (teen-mothers, broken families, crime, drugs). This is then declared to come from the ‘slavery past’, and thus our (white Dutchies) fault, not thus not their responsibility. Well, I happen to know how my great-great-great-great-parents grew up, and sorry, that is no excuse for me to choose to be a failure (not that slavery was in any way a good thing, and neither was it an exclusive ‘white’ product either!).

So am I a racist? Well, no, I detest such a thing. But I am a culturalist, in that I do believe that there are quite large differences in the acceptability of cultures, and that there are better and worse ones (I don’t think any has reached civilization yet…). And I do value you based on how you behave alone, the choices you make with regard to how you behave to other people alone and would like you to do so with me too. I don’t give a hoot what colour you are, what sexual preference you have, what country you were born in, how much money you make, what church, temple, mosque, synagogue, bunch of holy stones you visit, I solely look at how you choose to behave with respect to other people, and demand the same from you. If you do judge people by such things as I mention above, for whatever reason you give (religion, culture, upbringing, whatever) than you are an –ist, and I despise you for it. And along with it the religion, culture, upbringing, whatever you use as an excuse.

‘Discrimination’ is often used as a solely negative word. Not so. ‘Discrimination’ means no more than ‘to perceive a difference’. You can discriminate in a good way, and in a bad way. Saying ‘black is inferior to white’ is bad discrimination. As is ‘we prefer to hire a female employee over a male’ positive (ROFL!) discrimination. But if I say that Islamic culture (at large; this contains no opinion on any Muslim on his/her own, many who are decent people that should be an example to quite a few of us!) is inferior to Western culture, and you find this bad discrimination, please look at how Islamic culture (and Jewish, Christian, fill-in-other-heavily-religion based cultures) at large value women to man, Muslims to non-Muslims (esp. Jews), straights to gays, etc.. Not that ‘we’ in the West have nothing to improve (quite a lot, actually!), but I dare say that in general the Western world has moved farther out of the Dark Ages than has the Arab world in general. Prove me wrong if you disagree (I’d like to be wrong! It’s just that the sorry facts do not allow me to come to that conclusion!), and show me a mainly Islamic (or heavily Christian, Jewish, Communist (yes, I count Communism under religion!)or any other one-view-dominated country) that has truly equal freedom for all its inhabitants, is not overly marred by corruption in its various guises. And I do detest the fact that such progressions we have made here over the past centuries (Enlightenment) are now increasingly scrapped in order not to trod on some oh-so-easily sore toes of such that come here to enjoy (demand!) all pleasantries we have to offer in exchange for nothing but hatred!

Last question to close the ranting: why is Kwanzaa a good thing, and apparently not racist?

All best,
gep

[ahinton]

Well, gep, yours is undoubtedly by far the most intelligent, sensitive and comprehensive response in this thread so far!

I note that when you write "I am a culturalist, in that I do believe that there are quite large differences in the acceptability of cultures, and that there are better and worse ones (I don’t think any has reached civilization yet…)" you remind me of Mohandas Ghandi's answer to the question as to what he thought of Western civilization, namely "'I think that it would be a good idea".

In your reference to the notion of "discrimination" where you indirectly expose the commonly corrupt use of the term in discussions of race, gender and the like, you neatly echo Sorabji's remark on it that "to discriminate is to distinguish, ergo you cannot discriminate 'against' anything or anyone".

"Racism" as it is generally understood is one of the more unpalatable of today's many "isms" because it embraces and indeed embodies expressions of the kind of conflict and disagreement that inherently presumes violence of human against human; even your statements about superior and inferior cultures, as distinct from the widely paraded notion of superior and inferior races, are clearly motivated by a certain kind of "racial" thrust, namely that of the interests of the human race.

Many thanks for taking the trouble to write as you have here.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

You'll notice that racists tend to be highly fearful of outsiders and are openly hostile.  These behaviors are a defense mechanism due to perceived threat and harm.  

The threat and harm is not always perceived. It can be as a result of an actual event or events.

I speak as someone who lives in an area that has become a drop in centre for the unwanted scum of eastern Europe and Asia and to make things worse, we open our gates to the Romanians in December.

Thal

[ahinton]

The threat and harm is not always perceived. It can be as a result of an actual event or events.

It can indeed, but it often isn't.

I speak as someone who lives in an area that has become a drop in centre for the unwanted scum of eastern Europe and Asia and to make things worse, we open our gates to the Romanians in December.

Another person might as easily have been able to speak as someone who loves in what was once a drop-in centre for obsessively self-interesed colonisers from Britain, France, Spain, Portugal and (if gep will forgive my mentioning it) the Netherlands. In the case that you mention, however, who has decided on what grounds that those who have come to Le Fin des Graves from eastern Europe and Asia (or at least those who have done so legally as either EU citizens or British Asians) are "unwanted"? - by what and whose standards of what might who describe them as "scum"? and, finally, who owns the said gates? Plenty of people come to and go from Britain who are able to (and do) contribute constructively to the societies to which they choose to relocate, so any attept to tar all immigrants with the same negative brush is simply not amenable to detailed scrutiny. There are quite a few Welsh people in Hereford. "The Scots are everywhere,like the Jews", as someone once said to me. People of Northumbrian descent live in Cornwall and vice versa. To what extent would you ideally seek to have people confined and to refuse them legal permission to relocate?

Best,

Alistair

[davidjosepha]

But I am a culturalist, in that I do believe that there are quite large differences in the acceptability of cultures, and that there are better and worse ones

I believe many people are like this. In fact, I believe this is the true source of most racism. In my experiences, the most common form of racism is based on presumption that every member of a race is part of a particular culture, one that the racist finds distasteful. For example, a common racist presumption in the United States is that all blacks are a part of "black culture". I'm aware the term can mean different things depending on context, but here I'm talking about use of ebonics, "thug" or "gangsta" attire and attitude, etc. You probably have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about. As you might have guessed by the name, the majority of people in "black culture" are black. As a result, when people with racist inclinations see "black culture", they extrapolate that all people with black skin are a part of that culture, and, since they dislike the culture, they dislike blacks in general. I think many racists have less trouble accepting blacks who act, uh, not sure how to say this, white, than they would someone who is black and a part of "black culture". Likewise, racists will often hate whites who are a part of "black culture" (the term "wigger" comes to mind).

Of course, I'm also from northern US, where racism isn't as prominent, or, at least, blatant as it is in the south. I am only speaking from my own experiences.

[thalbergmad]

It can indeed, but it often isn't.

Well, not in your neck of the woods. The Roma have not got as far as the Borders yet, but when they do, you might change your stance as well as your lawn mower which has just been stolen.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Plenty of people come to and go from Britain who are able to (and do) contribute constructively to the societies to which they choose to relocate, so any attept to tar all immigrants with the same negative brush is simply not amenable to detailed scrutiny.

And plenty do not.

Something like 0.68% of our population was not born here, but over 7% of our prison population was not born here. Clearly, when you open your doors to all and sundry you let in a considerable undesirable element.

Thal

[gyzzzmo]

Its also a point of perspective: If there's an unproportional amount of crime from a certain cultural group, you can either call that just a statistic because that group hasn't had the same economical opportunities (yet), or you blame the culture/genes.

So racism isnt always what it seems, and visa versa.

[thalbergmad]

If there's an unproportional amount of crime from a certain cultural group, you can either call that just a statistic because that group hasn't had the same economical opportunities (yet), or you blame the culture/genes.

I blame dim-witted politicians like Tony Blair who allowed immigration to grow uncontrollably and let at least 1,500,000 people into an already over populated Country.

No doubt some have contributed to our Society, but for the good of the Country we need to rid ourselves of the ones who have not and send them back to the shithole from whence they came.

Thal

[ahinton]

Well, not in your neck of the woods. The Roma have not got as far as the Borders yet, but when they do, you might change your stance as well as your lawn mower which has just been stolen.

You clearly have scant experience of my "neck of the woods"! There are many Rumanian, Polish, Lithuanian and Latvian people around these parts (who are all, of course, EU citizens), as well as some Ukrainians, Belarussians and Moldovans (who are not yet). There's at least one Polish speciality food shop in Hereford and local branches of Tesco have dedicated Polish food sections. The Asian population is relatively small compared to the eastern European population. In any case, Hereford is (albeit jokingly) often referred to as a suburb of cosmopolitan south west Birmingham (even if only for the purpose of explaining where it is to those who seem to be unaware of its location).

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

And plenty do not.

Something like 0.68% of our population was not born here, but over 7% of our prison population was not born here. Clearly, when you open your doors to all and sundry you let in a considerable undesirable element.

Where do you regard as "here" in this context? England? I was born outside England myself.

Yes, of course there are cultural and economic problems that may be aggravated by immigration, but would you seriously advocate massive reductions not only in immigration but also in emigration if you had the power and authority to do so? - for you could not reasonably expect to have one without the other unless you're prepared openly to declare that you don't care a jot about other countries' immigration!

The people to get rid of from Britain are the illegal immigrants (a substantial proportion of whom may indeed contribute little if anything of value to British society) but that, of course, is highly problematic in practice.

In economically deprived areas of Britain, crimes of many kinds are always likely to increase irrespective of the racial origins of those who commit them.

By the way, I have had no lawnmowers or indeed anything else stolen from where I am since I arrived here. Someone not far away had their 3,000l oil tank stolen within hours of it being filled, but the thieves were caught; it transpired that they were part of a gang of Englishmen from far-off Gloucestershire...

Best,

Alistair

[oxy60]

Isn't what we speak of as racism simply the difference between your kind of people and others. It isn't just how they look, you perceive them as different.

If they could just assimilate into the population (language/values) without changing their "look" we wouldn't notice them so much.

There are areas of the US where all sorts of people live together without strife because everyone is on the same page.

Many subcultures keep their own down, because by moving out means you are selling out to the "man."

[thalbergmad]

Yes, of course there are cultural and economic problems that may be aggravated by immigration, but would you seriously advocate massive reductions not only in immigration but also in emigration if you had the power and authority to do so?

I don't blame people for wanting to leave England, as it has been reduced to an overcrowded hovel. The "White Flight" has been going on for years and will no doubt continue as we let in hoards of undesirables who's only intention is to better themselves by fleecing the benefits system.

Try visiting Boston or Wisbech and knocking on a few doors to get the opinion of the locals. A couple of journalists did and the response was pretty incredible.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

It isn't just how they look, you perceive them as different.

Well, in some cases they are different.

I don't think it is right to drop my pants in public and piss in someones garden, nor do I think it is right to go out shoplifting or pick pocketing. I generally don't deal drugs in broad daylight or carry a knife to go out mugging.

If I had a child, I am pretty sure that I would not use it to go begging or sell fake goods on street corners or use it to screw the benefits system.

I not only look different to the likes of Eastern European Gypsies, I am different in every possible imaginable way.

And please, let has not have any of this "poor discriminated against minority" crap. Mansions are being built in Romania on the back of "earnings" in the UK.

Thal

[ahinton]

I don't blame people for wanting to leave England, as it has been reduced to an overcrowded hovel.

But what of the countries to which they go and their atitue to immigration? If is was like yours, those counries would be wanting to send them back to where they came from, surely?

The "White Flight" has been going on for years and will no doubt continue as we let in hoards of undesirables who's only intention is to better themselves by fleecing the benefits system.

But doesn't all immigration and emigration offer the opportunity for anyone, including "undesirables" (whatever that may mean and to whom) to move around from one place to another? Isn't all relocation therefore potentially if not actually suspect on such grounds?

Try visiting Boston or Wisbech and knocking on a few doors to get the opinion of the locals. A couple of journalists did and the response was pretty incredible.

So what? I am a foreigner (as a Scot) and I currently live in a part of England that feels as though no one - even the non-immigrants from outside Britain - really knows or cares whether it actually is a part of England (which technically it is) or of Wales (which technically it once was). I feel no proprietoriality about the country in which I live and indeed I deprecate such hard-nosed and unhelpful attitudes of national proprietoriality wherever they might occur; Britain was once an habitual coloniser and, as a consequence, many millions of people have a right of abode in Britain which most do not take up. If everyone entitled to live in Britain - that's to say all EU citizens from 28 and rising contries as well as all those with British passports as a direct consequence of such past British colonisation of their current abodes - decided to come to Britain to live (and no one could legally deny them entry), Britain could suddenly find itself faced with a potential population substantially in excess of ten times what it is now, which I agree with you would be unwieldy but also unavoidable in accordance with Britain's own laws and history.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I generally don't deal drugs in broad daylight or carry a knife to go out mugging.

"Generally"? You mean tht you only ever deal in illicit drugs under cover of night and only carry a knife for mugging purposes on wet Thursday evenings? Mon Dieu!

If I had a child, I am pretty sure that I would not use it to go begging or sell fake goods on street corners or use it to screw the benefits system.

I'm sure that you wouldn't, just as I'm sure that most people in similar circumstances wouldn't, but desperation engenders all manner of unwelcome actions and circumstances and these are not confined to immigrants of different cultures to those that might once have been associated with Britain but are more likely to arise from extemes of poverty regardless of the racial origins of those so impoverished.

I not only look different to the likes of Eastern European Gypsies, I am different in every possible imaginable way.

You also "look" different to many other Britons; does that matter and is that a problem? Of course not!

And please, let has not have any of this "poor discriminated against minority" crap. Mansions are being built in Romania on the back of "earnings" in the UK.

But such corrupt practice occurs widely everywhere, regardles of race or racism.

Best,

Alistair

[j_menz]

The "White Flight" has been going on for years and will no doubt continue

You may start to encounter trouble with that. It appears all the ones worth having left some time ago. The standard has dropped quite markedly in recent years.

[lostinidlewonder]

If an individual spends much of their time judging others then they will generally be a racist also. Judging others based on what job they do, how much money they earn, what they materialistically own etc. If someone spends their time and mental energy with these kinds judgement then often they will also judge others based on the country they come from, what language they speak or what color their skin is.

[thalbergmad]

You may start to encounter trouble with that. It appears all the ones worth having left some time ago. The standard has dropped quite markedly in recent years.

Not so much a problem in UK as in Zimbabwe and what will eventually happen in South Africa.

Mugabi's henchmen might take all the land, but when they don't have the ability to farm it, they will all begin to starve.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

But such corrupt practice occurs widely everywhere, regardles of race or racism.

Not on this level it doesn't. This is a systematic attack on our Country the like we have not seen since the flood of Nigerian bank scams.

I really hope an illegal camp sets up in your garden. When your cat has been eaten, your car vandalized, your shed emptied, your house halved in value and you have been beaten up a few times, perhaps you might have a more balanced view.

Thal

[gyzzzmo]

Not on this level it doesn't. This is a systematic attack on our Country the like we have not seen since the flood of Nigerian bank scams.

I really hope an illegal camp sets up in your garden. When your cat has been eaten, your car vandalized, your shed emptied, your house halved in value and you have been beaten up a few times, perhaps you might have a more balanced view.

Thal

Maybe you'll have a more balanced view, if you can't afford a cat, no car, your house is a shed, beaten up a few times since there's no real government and only things of value are your family and your -accordion-?

[thalbergmad]

Maybe you'll have a more balanced view, if you can't afford a cat, no car, your house is a shed, beaten up a few times since there's no real government and only things of value are your family and your -accordion-?

I feel sorry for the plight of the Romanian Gypsies, but that does not mean I am relaxed about them coming here in droves.

They have already infested some German Cities and what Country really wants an influx of people who live like animals and survive off crime. We do not have the infrastructure to cope with them and our politicians should do everything in their power to ensure that they stay put.

Thal

[ahinton]

Not so much a problem in UK as in Zimbabwe and what will eventually happen in South Africa.

Mugabi's henchmen might take all the land, but when they don't have the ability to farm it, they will all begin to starve.

That's already begun to happen.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Not on this level it doesn't. This is a systematic attack on our Country the like we have not seen since the flood of Nigerian bank scams.

But where is your incontrovertible statistical evidence for that? Your use of the term "systematic" itself is flawed here; are you suggesting that successive British governments have wilfully conspired to try to undermine Britain by encouraging uncontrolled immigration in the hope that such immigration would achieve such ends? Crime in general is supposedly falling in Britain despite cuts in the police budget; I don't necessarily believe that this is true, but at the same time there seems scant evidence of vast increases in crime. Your implication that immigrants, particularly those from Asia and eastern Europe, are responsible for most crimes of all kinds does you no credit, nor does it accord to published facts.

I really hope an illegal camp sets up in your garden.

How very kind of you, old chap! I am, however, unaware of any such camps being set up anywhere around here.

When your cat has been eaten

I no longer have a cat but I've also heard of no cases in my locality of Asian or eastern European immigrants eating cats.

your car vandalized

But it's not been vandalised since I've been here, even though it sits outside inviting any Asians or eastern Europeans (or indeed anyone else, for that matter) to do so, as there is no garage here.

your shed emptied

That's not been done either.

your house halved in value

The house that I'm in currently isn't mine, so that's hardly my problem or concern.

and you have been beaten up a few times

I still await the first such attack.

The point of all this is that, as I stated earlier, there are plenty of immigrants in my area and indeed have been for quite some years, but none of this has happened since I've been here.

You didn't answer my question about what your own policy towards emigration would be; I'd be interested to hear that. You have also avoided comment so far on the ultimate inevitable long-tem effect of past colonialism, particularly to the extent that, if even as many as a mere 10% of British citizens in the world who currently live outside Britain were to decide to relocate to Britain, as they are legally entitled to do, the increase in the British population would be vastly greater than it has ever been at the height of immigration and would cause far more problems than have previously been caused by population movement in Britain.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Go and talk to the Met Police and ask why they have asked for assistance from the Romanian Police to cope with their own people in London.

Statistical evidence is not required.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

if even as many as a mere 10% of British citizens in the world who currently live outside Britain were to decide to relocate to Britain, as they are legally entitled to do, the increase in the British population would be vastly greater than it has ever been at the height of immigration and would cause far more problems than have previously been caused by population movement in Britain.

Why on Earth would anyone want to come back here???

The very fact that they are entitled to do so should warrant greater care in who we let in from Europe and Asia.

Thal

[ahinton]

It is now universally accepted amongst most sane people that Immigration was encouraged by the Labour government to change the make up of our Society for ever and "wipe the right's face in it". They provided a cheap workforce so low skilled vacancies were filled and Labour could carry on paying thousands of scroungers benefits to retain their votes. It was predicted that 13,000 Polish would come to England, but that now seems to be more like 700,000.

There had been immigration before that government and there has been more since. Lots of poorer and unqualified immigrants take low paid jobs that Brits won't, otherwise they'd not get done, as you suggest, but why would a government be carrying on paying benefits to "scroungers" if they're in low-paid jobs that Brits won't take? Wiping the right's face off Britain was an absurd notion if even anyone had one, since Margaret Thatcher, when asked if she wanted to move the Tory party to the right, answered that she wantged to move all parties to the right and, irrespective of whether or to what extent the fact that this is what happened is actually down to her, all three main poarties now are far less distinguishable one from another as had previously been the case and that blurring of the edges had already occurred by the time Blair assumed office. As to Poles, there were already many in Britain long before the predictions that you mention, a lot of them having come to tht country after the war in which some had served on Britain's side.

You need to edit your last post to get the quotes right; I often make mistakes like that myself!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

are you suggesting that successive British governments have wilfully conspired to try to undermine Britain by encouraging uncontrolled immigration in the hope that such immigration would achieve such ends?

Most sane people now accept that Labour under Bliar allowed uncontrolled immigration to "wipe the right's face in it". No doubt they hoped they were letting in thousands that would eventually be Labour voters.

Massed immigration solved a problem for Labour as they now had a cheap workforce to fill low paid vacancies. This meant that could carry on paying indigenous loafers money to stay at home and breed.

Thal

[ahinton]

Go and talk to the Met Police

Who will pay for that?

and ask why they have asked for assistance from the Romanian Police to cope with their own people in London.

I did not and do suggest that no Romanians who immigrate to Britan are criminals or indeed that none who do so from anywhere are criminals, but there are criminals everywhere and British citizens living in Britain can and do become victims of crime perpetrated in other countries anyway; you have only to consider the example of Nigerian scams that you yourself cited earlier!

Statistical evidence is not required.

It is if reliable and credible crime figures are to be considered as part of a discussion of the matter rather than merely being content to make blanket staements and assumptions.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

You need to edit your last post to get the quotes right; I often make mistakes like that myself!

Indeed I have.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

It is if reliable and credible crime figures are to be considered as part of a discussion of the matter rather than merely being content to make blanket staements and assumptions.

There is no such thing as reliable crime figures as they do not include the ones that people cannot be bothered to complain to the Police about. I have little trust in any figures that are published, but the percentage of immigrants in our prison population is revealing enough.

Thal

[ahinton]

Why on Earth would anyone want to come back here???

The very fact that they are entitled to do so should warrant greater care in who we let in from Europe and Asia.

Ask some of them tht do want to and that have come back already; you might get more useful answers than I would were I to question the Met Police without invitation as you suggested. What "care" would you suggest, given that most EU citizens have the same or similar rights of abode in any other EU nation? (and by "Europe" I presume you to mean "the rest of Europe") - and don't forget that among the Asians living in Asia are many hundreds of thousands of people with British citizenship and passports to prove it and to demonstrate their right to live in britain should they choose to come to Britain.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

There is no such thing as reliable crime figures as they do not include the ones that people cannot be bothered to complain to the Police about. I have little trust in any figures that are published, but the percentage of immigrants in our prison population is revealing enough.

I agree that crime statistics are less than reliable and indeed suggested this upthread, but do you actually know what percentage of Britain's prison population are immigrants, how that figure has changed from year to year and area to area over the years, what proportion the immigrant prison population represents of the immigrant population as a whole and how long each such immigrant prisoner has been in Britain? (the last question relating to the fact that Britain's immigrants include peoiple who have been there for decades).

One reson why crime figures are less than reliable is that there are many unreported crimes but, as they are unreported, it is unreasonable to assume that they've all been committed by immigrants. Do also remember that some crimes are committed against immigrants, too.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

As to Poles, there were already many in Britain long before the predictions that you mention, a lot of them having come to tht country after the war in which some had served on Britain's side.

Indeed, there were many. But we have allowed in some 600,000 over 10 years and now we have the Romanians and Bulgerians waiting to come over.

Where are all these people going to live when we already have a huge housing shortage??
Where are the hospitals to cope with their needs when the NHS is busting at the seams and some trusts are bordering on bankrupcy??
Where are the schools to educate their children when class sizes are larger than ever??
Where are the doctors to look after the ill, when it takes weeks to get an appointment at some surgeries already??
What roads are they going to drive on when we suffer so much from gridlock already??

We neither have the space nor the infrastructure to cope.

Snuggled away in your comfy remote cottage, you seem to have developed a strange stance to the problems faced by this Country.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Do also remember that some crimes are committed against immigrants, too.

Perhaps they ought to consider going home then.

Thal

[ahinton]

Indeed, there were many. But we have allowed in some 600,000 over 10 years and now we have the Romanians and Bulgerians waiting to come over.

This time, it's your use of the tem "allowed" that is flawed; these people are EU citizens just as you and I are (although the Rumanians and Bulgarians[sp.] have been so less long than have the Poles and the Croatians, whom you did not mention, have become EU citizens only this month).

Where are all these people going to live when we already have a huge housing shortage??

We'd have one in any case even without immigration and, whilst I do accept that population increases from immigration will worsen that problem, it's in any case time that something was done about it.

Where are the hospitals to cope with their needs when the NHS is busting at the seams and some trusts are bordering on bankrupcy??

But why are they so?

Where are the schools to educate their children when class sizes are larger than ever??

Where are the doctors to look after the ill, when it takes weeks to get an appointment at some surgeries already??

What roads are they going to drive on when we suffer so much from gridlock already??

We neither have the space nor the infrastructure to cope.

I accept that there's not room in Britain for too many people - at least not where there's an infrastructure to support them - but the problems that you write about - transport gridlock, overworked doctors and teachers, ongoing government cutbacks on NHS, education and the police and a lack of investment in home building - are going to worsen with or without more immigrants unless and until something is done about them (trhe problems, that is - not the immigrants!).

Snuggled away in your comfy remote cottage, you seem to have developed a strange stance to the problems faced by this Country.

Where I live is far from "comfy" although it is indeed remote, but my stance on these matters is no different now to what it was when I lived, as I did for almost a quarter century, in the City of Bath, so location has nothing to do with my thoughts on these issues.

Out of interest, in the curent economic climate (and that can, of course change in either direction at any time), what number would you take to be the maxiumum population that UK as currently constituted (which could also change, of course) could feasibly sustain? and what proportion of immigrants in that figure would you consider to be an acceptable maximum?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Where I live is far from "comfy" although it is indeed remote, but my stance on these matters is no different now to what it was when I lived, as I did for almost a quarter century, in the City of Bath, so location has nothing to do with my thoughts on these issues.

Well, in order to glean a more balanced view on our immigration issues, I would recommend a weeks vacation is Wisbech, Peterborough, Boston or even better, Gravesend. No doubt, you would not lower yourself this far.

A bit of personal experience goes a long way to appreciating the problems of uncontrolled immigration and when you have recovered from a nice dose of TB (which was almost unheard of in this Country 10 years ago), you might have a different perspective.

Now, please get back to swilling wine with your Guardian reading friends and leave me to my work.

Thal

[ahinton]

Well, in order to glean a more balanced view on our immigration issues, I would recommend a weeks vacation is Wisbech, Peterborough, Boston or even better, Gravesend. No doubt, you would not lower yourself this far.

By Boston, I assume you to mean the large Lincolnshire village, but in any case your doubt is unfounded; indeed, none of these are places that would immediately occur to me as a vacation choice, but no lowering of myself would be involved.

A bit of personal experience goes a long way to appreciating the problems of uncontrolled immigration and when you have recovered from a nice dose of TB (which was almost unheard of in this Country 10 years ago), you might have a different perspective.

Is that what's happened to you? If so, I am genuinely sorry to hear it and hope that you are now fully recovered. That said, to what extent can you blame the occurrence of TB (in humans, as distinct from that in cattle that many in the farming profession believe to be carried and spread by badgers) on immigrants alone - and immigrants from where, in particular and on the basis of what evidence? Furthgermore, it is not correct to suggest that TB "was almost unheard of in (Britain) 10 years ago"; it was hardly unknown, for example, when Chopin had for some time been suffering from it when he came to Britain (admittedly only as a visitor) shortly before his death almost 164 years ago.

Now, please get back to swilling wine with your Guardian reading friends and leave me to my work.

I would not dream of interrupting your valuable work! I do not, however, have many Guardian reading friends and in any case I do not "swill" wine.

I did ask you what you thought might be an acceptable and viable maximum population for Britain today and what proportion thereof you might consider to be acceptable as its immigrant content and, although you have yet to answer that, it would be hard to imagine that you did not have answers thereto.

I might add the question of whether you might personally consider that applications for immigration into Britain (i.e from people who are not already British or EU citizens currently living outside Britain and who'd therefore have no need to make them) ought to be restricted not only to a set maximum annual tally but also territorially, i.e. Norwegian but not Somalian, South African but not Mexican, American but not Vietnamese, for example; perhaps you might care to tell us.

Lastly, don't forget that, as of August next yar, I might suddenly turn into an "immigrant" myself without even having to apply!

Best,

Alistair

[oxy60]

Firstly I cannot imagine any of the Brits I meet at the Sunday afternoon Cricket match in the Benidorm area wanting to come back to the cold. They've got their pubs, restaurants, language and all the trimmings.

Secondly, England finds itself in a terrible position. Many of those people flowing in are on their way to Canada and to the US. There is no worse member of a society than one who doesn't want to be there and is only passing through.

When I was in London in the 70's it was full and during recent visits it has become worse.

Nobody wants the government to tell them how to run their business but scraping the bottom of the barrel for the cheapest labor and hiring anybody with or without papers only encourages the influx.

[thalbergmad]

When I was in London in the 70's it was full and during recent visits it has become worse.

Hopefully Hinty will read this. But since large scale immigration does not affect him in his remote bolthole, I doubt if he will pay much notice.

Thal