Chopin - "Winter Wind" etude (which tempo?) - Enzo

[emill]

Lorenzo plays this Fast and Slower. During his auditions for the BM program in some US music schools last Feb.- March, he played both, although he would not tell us which schools he played the faster or the slower.    He would highly appreciate your opinion on the subject and other observations you may have.  MANY THANKS!!

SLOWER:

FASTER:

[visitor]

BOTH are  great!!

I like the slower. 

[lukediv]

BOTH are  great!!

I like the slower. 

Agreed. Both are insanely good but i prefer the slower

[awesom_o]

The slower rendition is better.  It sounds more musical, more thoughtful, and better controlled.

The 2nd performance to me comes off as being more than a bit sloppy. Tempo is too fast and the boy's control of velocity is insufficient.

If you listen closely in the slower version, some of the most difficult passages don't come out very clearly-holes in the RH, unclear rhythm and harmony in the LH. I would think about achieving better control in the 'slower' tempo before sacrificing clarity and musicality in a shallow attempt  to create a more impressive performance.
Some very fine things in Enzo's performance. His movements at the keyboard have a power and quickness to them that shows he is studying at the real virtuoso level. The power and quickness of movement manifests in the sound-plenty of power and speed there.

Not enough grace yet-that will come. Power balanced with grace is difficult to come by in Chopin. It is not enough that movements are powerful and quick, they also have to be graceful. It manifests also in the sound-it is not graceful enough yet. Too butch.

[rachfan]

Hi Emill,

Ah, the impreciseness of tempo verbiage and indicators.  Here in the "Winter Wind" etude we have, after the introduction, "Allegro con brio"--a rapid vivacious playing with vigor, animation and spirit.  In the Paderewski Edition there is a metronome marking of a half-note = 69.  But the Arthur Friedheim edition for Schirmer shows a half-note = 58.  There are probably other variations in other editions. Either of these markings though is definitely in the highest reaches of allegro, that is, almost touching vivace. Chopin's intent was to produce a whirlwind of sound and at these tempi it can be realized.

Enzo's slower rendition is a more cautious and careful one and allows time for more control.  I believe that the faster rendition is probably closer to Chopin's actual intent.  It has a lot of brilliance, thus is more exciting and satisfying in my opinion.  I would never let go of slow practice as the foundation to ensure articulation and accuracy.  Following that discipline, I would change from practice to performance at a fully manageable tempo.  Then I would keep incrementing the speed at only two notches on the metronome each time. As speed increases I would be listening for accuracy and clarity.  As soon as errors or note omissions appear, I would go no higher until I could remedy the loss of control. Only then would I try to edge it even higher.
 
I have to admit that I'm an old school pianist not willing to sacrifice risk taking and individuality for pure precision. Today it seems that there is too much of a fixation on absolute precision. Audiences want the artist to communicate the mood, emotion and meaning of the music to them. If the artist makes that connection, then a finger slip and a few dropped notes aren't going to matter in the larger scheme of things.  Just my opinion.

David          

[ajspiano]

In short I rather agree with david and awesome_o.

Put as simply as possible, the faster tempo is certainly more exciting for me, but there is more musical nuance audibly present, with greater control, in the slower one which is making that a better performance for me.

Tempo aside, the LH seems perhaps too straight to me (personal preference) - I like to hear the longer notes of the dotted rhythms longer, and the shorter notes shorter, almost broken up a bit in the triplets too, like the below..  noting that that may well be "breaking the rules" in some peoples views, but to me it just makes for more dramatic music when done at the right time.

For example, and not necessarily on this bar or unique to this bar.


Depends largely on what enzo personally gets from the piece at any given moment though.. also I note that chopin does write this rhythm (on the triplet) himself in bar 28. 

Once in the whole piece seems a little too sparingly used to me..

[emill]

Hi rachfan, ajspiano, awesom_o ....

It is good the we posted this "issue" regarding tempo because Enzo complains of the variations in the different editions, but he is so preferential to the faster tempos, likely because of his youth (and inexperience?).  He performs it better and with more clarity now and as fast, that when recital day came "it brought the house down".  It would seem to me that all teachers would love to hear this slower, but the audience as accurately described by David seems to love faster renditions as it imparts "a lot of brilliance, thus is more exciting and satisfying"!

Ahhh the "SLOW PRACTICE" - - Enzo is quite "lucky" to be tutored 6 hours a week  for July-August only by someone who is a proponent of slow practice ... and my it is really slow, a note every 2-3 seconds and I can see his impatience! It seems to be doing him well and he seems to be more appreciative of the technique as time passes.

Thank you for the inputs on the technical aspects, I know he is forming opinions and digesting what you guys have written here, he has at least reread it several times this morning.  He always takes it up with his teacher and it generates a good amount of discussion between them.  I just wish that someday he will be more talkative about his thoughts in this forum as he is with his teacher.  So MANY THANKS GUYS.

hello visitor and lukediv !!  

Thanks so much.  We're happy both of you liked the fast and slow tempos, but like many preferred the slower as it could be more expressive.  We wish to hear and hope that you will be more active in the forum.  THANKS!

[ted]

The opinion of a highly eccentric improviser who has worked at a factory for thirty years is probably supremely irrelevant to an intending professional classical musician. With that caution in mind, I prefer the slower version, simply because it shows some difference in thought from the uniform, sausage-like renditions I hear on CDs. I suppose there are severe limits on straying from what pedagogy imposes as mandatory though; too much freedom would jeopardise their vested interests.

I think this piece sings and breathes better at a slower pace, but then there is the aspect of showmanship David mentions. While it is superfluous for private players, like it or not, it is vital to public performers.

How about developing two versions on an ongoing basis, the nuanced and the bravura ? No law against doing that.

[rachfan]

Hi Emill,

Ahhh the "SLOW PRACTICE" - - Enzo is quite "lucky" to be tutored 6 hours a week  for July-August only by someone who is a proponent of slow practice ... and my it is really slow, a note every 2-3 seconds and I can see his impatience! Grin It seems to be doing him well and he seems to be more appreciative of the technique as time passes.

An anecdote:

One time the artist Abram Chasins had to meet with Rachmaninoff at the latter's home.  When Chasins arrived, he heard Rachmaninoff practicing, so decided to remain on the front porch to listen. It was so very slow that he that couldn't figure out which piece the great artist was practicing. Finally after a long pause of several minutes there, it came to him that it was Chopin's Etude in Thirds.

David

[emill]

The opinion of a highly eccentric improviser who has worked at a factory for thirty years is probably supremely irrelevant to an intending professional classical musician. . . . . . .  I have always been an abominably slow learner, not just in music, with a compulsion to ponder everything to death for long periods and come up with bizarre, original solutions to problems, of little use to anyone. It took me ten years before I could improvise at all . . . Not so much talent . . . but just a remorseless imperative to create which will not take no for an answer.

Wow Ted !!!  Could not believe you could think somewhat "lowly" of yourself.    Let me just say that your impressions of yourself never crossed my mind all these years and that marrying a Filipina has placed you in my mind as someone whose judgement must be GOOD and to be taken seriously.  

I suppose there are severe limits on straying from what pedagogy imposes as mandatory though; too much freedom would jeopardise their vested interests.

I think this piece sings and breathes better at a slower pace, but then there is the aspect of showmanship David mentions. While it is superfluous for private players, like it or not, it is vital to public performers.  How about developing two versions on an ongoing basis, the nuanced and the bravura ? No law against doing that.  

It looks like that is how it is developing, 2 versions ... he plays it slow for the academic audience and fast for the general audience.  But earlier this year, during auditions in the US I think he had not yet adopted that "guideline" and he seemed to have played it slower in Eastman and faster in NEC and Oberlin.  

THANKS FOR the Comment.

[emill]

An anecdote:
One time the artist Abram Chasins had to meet with Rachmaninoff at the latter's home.  When Chasins arrived, he heard Rachmaninoff practicing, so decided to remain on the front porch to listen. It was so very slow that he that couldn't figure out which piece the great artist was practicing. Finally after a long pause of several minutes there, it came to him that it was Chopin's Etude in Thirds.
David

I could really imagine what you just posted to be true!!!    For someone like me listening to some of the Chopin etudes they are now tackling and done in very slow practice really taxes one's imagination as to what they are playing!!?     Sometimes the practice slows down to a note every 5-6 seconds!!!!    Must really help as Enzo is beginning to appreciate it with time.

[ajspiano]

I could really imagine what you just posted to be true!!!    For someone like me listening to some of the Chopin etudes they are now tackling and done in very slow practice really taxes one's imagination as to what they are playing!!?     Sometimes the practice slows down to a note every 5-6 seconds!!!!    Must really help as Enzo is beginning to appreciate it with time.

My personal experience has been that without that approach many of them would be essentially impossible to learn to any degree of proficiency (especially the thirds study). Such work is where we may be able to finally appreciate the subtlety of potential movement and refine it to something truly precise.

..or perhaps in my case, it opens you up to the degree of proficiency possible

[emill]

My personal experience has been that without that approach many of them would be essentially impossible to learn to any degree of proficiency (especially the thirds study). Such work is where we may be able to finally appreciate the subtlety of potential movement and refine it to something truly precise.     ..or perhaps in my case, it opens you up to the degree of proficiency possible  

Would you know if this system of slow or VERY slow practice is the authorship of someone?  It must have gone a long way back and adopted by so many pianists as part of the technique in practicing.  I say this because Enzo's other tutor who is teaching him now is nearing 80, finished his studies at Conservatoire National Supérieur de Musique in Paris and says it was standard for them to slow practice. He says that he was required to slow practice even sonatas and would be doing that for 2-3 weeks for one Beethoven Sonata before picking up the tempo.  I could just imagine the Appasionata, being approached that way (i will die of boredom listening to the practice).    

[ajspiano]

Would you know if this system of slow or VERY slow practice is the authorship of someone?  It must have gone a long way back and adopted by so many pianists as part of the technique in practicing.  I say this because Enzo's other tutor who is teaching him now is nearing 80, finished his studies at Conservatoire National Supérieur de Musique in Paris and says it was standard for them to slow practice. He says that he was required to slow practice even sonatas and would be doing that for 2-3 weeks for one Beethoven Sonata before picking up the tempo.  I could just imagine the Appasionata, being approached that way (i will die of boredom listening to the practice).    

No I don't...

For me personally, as someone who didnt have a teacher with a broad technical understanding that kind of practice was something that dawned on me one day when I just decided to think much more seriously about "how" to play. This happened long before I knew it was something rachmaninoff did..  so realistically I could credit myself with the idea, but obviously I wasn't the first.

[dima_76557]

Would you know if this system of slow or VERY slow practice is the authorship of someone?

I am pretty sure it comes from the East (Zen Buddhism, etc.). This is not just to get all the notes right, which would easily make it purely mechanical and therefore meaningless. It is about taking the time to make micro-discoveries about your SELF while moving deliberately in a certain prescribed fashion. You simply do not have enough time to learn that valuable lesson if you practise faster.
EDIT: I think I owe you an explanation. Whenever you move inefficiently (something you can only notice when you go very slowly), it's your EGO that interferes. You have to free yourself from your ego to develop (or in old pieces that once went well - rediscover) your instinct, like a cat that falls from a height but always lands on its four. Hope that is clear enough?

P.S.: I prefer the slow version for reasons that have already been stated by others.

[goldentone]

Hi Emill,

I would say that the Winter Wind is a very difficult piece to give expression to.  Perhaps that is the nature of the piece, being a maelstrom.  In harmony with what Rachfan said, and what Ted alluded to, the most important thing for Enzo is that he develops into an artist, not a mere technician as has become the norm in our time, into a pianist who can give an interpretation and put his soul into the repertoire.  

[ted]

Wow Ted !!!  Could not believe you could think somewhat "lowly" of yourself. Let me just say that your impressions of yourself never crossed my mind all these years and that marrying a Filipina has placed you in my mind as someone whose judgement must be GOOD and to be taken seriously.

I don't really think lowly of either myself or my music, that would be silly, but it would have been surprising had my background produced a  conventional musician. I just have to be careful what I say to musicians about music, that's all, because I am likely to think very differently without realising it.

I married the woman I love, who just happens to be a Filipina. I was quite unaware of the mass exporting of Filipina wives for Western men going on at the time, and which still occurs to some extent. I just wanted a penfriend, and we wrote for four years before marriage was mentioned. She is almost as atypical a Filipina as I am a Kiwi man. Just lucky, all things considered.