Liszt's Playing

[awesom_o]

Since I have been delving deeper and deeper into the world of Liszt, rehearsing frequently many of his arrangements of symphonic music as well as studying some of his original works, it came upon me to do some research on the topic of how Liszt actually played.

Obviously we have only written descriptions to rely on. It stands to reason, however, that some of those descriptions, mainly those given by figures of considerable musical authority, can be taken quite seriously. I found the following description by Borodin to be particularly fascinating! 

https://lisztomania.wdfiles.com/local--files/liszt-as-teacher/Borodin%20on%20Liszt.pdf

"This brings me to his playing: in spite of all that I had heard about
it I was struck by the extreme simplicity, sobriety and discipline of
his playing and the complete absence of pretentiousness, affectation
and any striving for extraneous effect. He adopts moderate tempi,
never rushes or gets carried away, and yet in spite of his age the
power, energy, passion, enthusiasm and fire are boundless. His tone
is round, full and firm; the clarity, richness and variety of nuance
are amazing. Generally he is reluctant to play. He has not played in
public for some time but only at private gatherings and even then
only at a few select ones."

I found this description also very intriguing, even if the source is Wikipedia. It appears to come from the diary of the mother of one of Liszt's pupils, who kept a detailed record of her daughter's lessons.

"M. Liszt's playing contains abandonment, a liberated feeling, but even when it becomes impetuous and energetic in his fortissimo, it is still without harshness and dryness. [...] [He] draws from the piano tones that are purer, mellower and stronger than anyone has been able to do; his touch has an indescribable charm. [...] He is the enemy of affected, stilted, contorted expressions. Most of all, he wants truth in musical sentiment, and so he makes a psychological study of his emotions to convey them as they are. Thus, a strong expression is often followed by a sense of fatigue and dejection, a kind of coldness, because this is the way nature works."


To my imagination, this type of playing must have been quite different from much of the playing we hear today.... potentially much more spontaneous and exciting. I'm interested to hear what others make of these descriptions.

[pbryld]

Start reading Alan Walker's biography. I'm on the 2nd volume now, and it's an interesting read most of the time, but never not relevant.

[chopin2015]

Hmmm.

https://www.materialized.com/liszt/

[iansinclair]

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.  Not only pianists, but many others of the really great musicians of the past (and a few from the present, fortunately!) are perfectly willing to let the music speak for itself, through them.  It was not seen as necessary to present a great visual display at the same time (my great aunt, a student of Paderewski's, had been well drilled on that!).

And I have been privileged, over the years, to watch many of the great conductors and pianists.  An economy of action...

After all is said and done, you listen to the music, not watch the performer.  I you want to watch the performer, try Vegas...

YouTube has been no help at all.

[j_menz]

One approach that may be useful is to have a look at the Liszt "transcriptions" by Alexander Siloti.  Siloti was a pupil of Liszt for starters, and was an editor of some of Liszts published works, but more interestingly from your perspective is that as Liszt approached the end of his life he sat down with Siloti to make a painstakingly accurate "transcription" of his own performance of the famous Concert Etude in Db (known today as Un Sospiro). Their purpose was to demonstrate to future generations the difference between Liszt's own performances and his published scores. They saw that those performances were soon to become only a quickly fading memory, and were concerned at how future generations of pianists would deal with only the published scores as guidance. They also intended to set the record straight about some notes that still puzzle attentive pianists today.

There are seven such "transcriptions" of different pieces extant.

I would suggest they provide an insight that mere observational commentary may not.

[lostinidlewonder]

"Words cannot describe him as a pianist - he was incomparable and unapproachable. I have seen whole rows of his audience, men and women alike, affected to tears when he chose to be pathetic: in stormy passages he was able by his art to work them up to the highest pitch of excitement; through the medium of his instrument he played upon every human emotion. Rubinstein, Tausig and Bulow all admitted that they were mere children in comparison with Liszt"  Oscar Beringer.

During his concerting from Munich, Stuttgart, Strasbourg to Paris, Liszt convinces critics that even at the age of 12 he could play better than Moscheles and Hummel, the two great virtuosi of the day. Paris rhapsodized over him: reproductions of his portrait were to be seen everywhere, and the newspapers called him the second Mozart, the ninth wonder of the world.

An extraordinary and amusing account of one of Liszt's recitals was given in the autobiography of Henry Reeves. Reeves attended a concert of Liszt given in 1835:
"Liszt had already played a great fantasia of his own, and Beethoven's Twenty-seventh Sonata. After this latter piece he gasped with emotion as I took his hand and thanked him for the divine energy he had shed forth..... My chair was on the same board as the piano when the final piece began. It was a duet for two instruments beginning with his Mendelssohn's Chants sans Paroles and proceeding to a work of his own.
   ..... As the closing strains began I saw Liszt's countenance assuming that agony of expression, mingled with radiant smiles of joy, which I never saw on any other human face except in the paintings of Our Saviour by some of the early masters; his hands rushed over the keys, the floor on which I sat shook like a wire, and the whole audience were wrapped with sound when the hand and frame of the artist gave way. He fainted in the arms of the friend who was turning over the pages for him, and we bore him out in a strong fit of hysterics. The effect of this scene was really dreadful. The whole room sat breathless with fear, till Hiller came forward and announced that Liszt was already restored to consciousness and was comparatively well again. As I handed Madame de Circourt to her carriage we both trembled like poplar leaves, and I tremble scarcely less as I write this."

Liszt's style was invariably extravagant, he loved to stagger his audience with extreme velocity, terrific attack and immense power, yet his runs and arpeggios were as near perfect as any mortal could hope to get them. His brutal fortissimos often resulted in broken wires and smashed hammers, yet his more delicate passages were executed with a superb touch that could bring tears to the eyes of all emotional people.

The rising reputation of Thalberg as a pianist was party responsible for Liszt's decision to return to Paris 1836. Continued absence would have made it easy for Thalberg to challenge the great virtuoso's acknowledged supremacy. Liszt reached the French capital with the Comtesse d'Agoult in December 1836 to find Thalberg's name upon everybody's lips in all the musical circles. Undismayed, he arranged to appear at a concert being held by Berlioz, and to play his own transcriptions of various pieces by that composer. The audience, little suspecting that his technique had become even more remarkable during his absence, gathered in a sceptic frame of mind, but within fifteen minutes they were gasping with astonishment. Sir Charles Halle was present and we have his personal testimony:

"At an orchestral concert conducted by Berlioz, the March au Supplice, that most gorgeously instrumented piece, was performed, at the conclusion of which Liszt sat down and played his own arrangement, for piano alone, of the same movement, with an effect even surpassing that of the full orchestra, and creating an indescribable furore. The feat had been duly announced in the programme beforehand, a proof of his indomitable courage."

Halle remarked:
"Such marvels of executive skill and power I could never have imagined... Chopin carried you with him into a dreamland in which you would have liked to dwell forever; Liszt was all sunshine and dazzling splendour, subjugating his hearers with a power that none could withstand. From him there were no difficulties of execution, the most incredible seeming child's play under his fingers. One of the transcendent merits of his playing was the crystal-like clearness which never failed for a moment even in the most complicated and, to anybody else, impossible passages; it was as if he had photographed them in their minutest detail upon the ear of the listener. The power he drew from his instrument was such as I have never heard since, but never harsh, never suggesting 'thumping'. "

Thalberg happened to be out of Paris at this time, but he returned to the capital in the following March and arranged a concert at the Conservatoire. Liszt accepted this as a challenge and arranged one at the opera house, where to an audience many times larger than that drawn by his rival, he played Weber's  Concertstuck and his own Fantasia on Pacini's Niobe, and convinced the musical world for all time of his supremacy.

Liszt went to Venice and there he heard of the plight of the peasants who where suffering great hardships after flooding of the Danube. He played 10 concerts within a month and raised a large sum of money which he handed over for the relief of the stricken peasants. These concerts where of great artistic success and Liszt rose to even greater heights of fame.

Some idea of Liszt's fame as a pianist might be gained from an incident at Pressburg, where nobility were so unanimous in their desire to hear him play that the Prince Palatine of Hungary had to cancel a levee because he warned that it clashed with Liszt's concert, and that if he persisted in holding it on that day, nobody would attend!


Liszt's contemporary von Lenz wrote: "Liszt is a phenomenon of universal musical virtuosity.... an apparition not to be compressed within the bounds of the house drawn by schools and professors. Liszt is the past, the present, and the future of the pianoforte.... When Liszt thunders, lightens, and murmurs, the great B-flat Sonata for Hammerklavier by Beethoven, this Solomon's Song of the keyboard, there is end of all things pianistic; Liszt is making capital for humanity out of the ideas of the greatest thinker in the realm of music.

Prosniz wrote: "Liszt is the father of modern pianoforte virtuosity. He developed the capacity of the instrument to the utmost; he commanded it to sing, to whisper, to thunder. From the human voice as well as from the orchestra be borrowed effects. Daringly, triumphantly, his technique overcame all difficulties- a technique which proclaimed the unqualified dominion of the mind over the human hand."

The last 20 years of Liszt's life was spent mostly in Rome where he found plenty of activity at Weimar and frequently visited Budapest. In 1866 he went on a "jubilee Tour" to celebrate his forthcoming 75th birthday, visiting Paris on the Way to London, where he arrived on April 3rd, for a performance of St Elizabeth in the st James Hall. He attended the rehearsal on the following day, and in the evening delighted everybody by improvising brilliantly on the themes from that oratorio. On the following Wednesday it was performed under Sir Alexander Mackenzie's direction, and on the Thursday evening Liszt was received by Queen Victoria at Windsor Castle. He played her various works of his own and Chopin's Nocturne in B-flat minor no 1.

A great reception in his honor was given at the Grosvenor Gallery on April 8th, and once again he found it impossible to disregard requests play; he went to the piano and gave an astonishing performance of the Second Hungarian Rhapsody and the finale of Schubert's Divertissment a l'Hongroise. While he was in London he also went to a concert of his own works at Crystal Palace, dined with the Prince of Wales at Marlborough House, attended the London debut of Frederic Lamond at the St James's Hall on April 15th, and went to a gala performance of Faust at Lyceum, where he met Irving and Ellen Terry. He never saw his 75th birthday however, for later in summer he caught a chill and died at Beyreuth on July 31st. He played throughout his entire life, which to me is a very blessed pianist.
 
Hope some of this has been food for thought.

[thalbergmad]

Obviously we have only written descriptions to rely on.

We also have tons of recordings by his pupils that can give us an insight into how the master sounded.

Rosenthal perhaps the closest.

Thal

[pbryld]

One approach that may be useful is to have a look at the Liszt "transcriptions" by Alexander Siloti.  Siloti was a pupil of Liszt for starters, and was an editor of some of Liszts published works, but more interestingly from your perspective is that as Liszt approached the end of his life he sat down with Siloti to make a painstakingly accurate "transcription" of his own performance of the famous Concert Etude in Db (known today as Un Sospiro). Their purpose was to demonstrate to future generations the difference between Liszt's own performances and his published scores. They saw that those performances were soon to become only a quickly fading memory, and were concerned at how future generations of pianists would deal with only the published scores as guidance. They also intended to set the record straight about some notes that still puzzle attentive pianists today.

There are seven such "transcriptions" of different pieces extant.

I would suggest they provide an insight that mere observational commentary may not.

And where can one obtain these?

[awesom_o]

We also have tons of recordings by his pupils that can give us an insight into how the master sounded.

Rosenthal perhaps the closest.

Thal

yes and no.... style had changed so much by the time those pupils were making those recordings. And how can we really know that Rosenthal sounded like Liszt? Did he claim to sound like Liszt? Just because you've heard my student play doesn't mean you'll know how I play....



Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. Some very interesting stuff!

Of course, some descriptions give just the typical account of the shock and awe that followed his performances, or the usual legendary accounts of his sightreading....... of course I had heard the story about him sightreading the Grieg Violin Sonata, playing both parts and commenting the whole time....

Still, the picture in my own mind, in terms of his sound.... I'm thinking he was the only pianist whose grasp of nuance and expressive subtlety could rival Chopin's, except that he had inexhaustable physical energy and strength that Chopin could never channel for more than a short passage.

I skimmed the Alan Walker biography about a decade ago. Methinks its time to get it again!

[dima_76557]

To my imagination, this type of playing must have been quite different from much of the playing we hear today.... potentially much more spontaneous and exciting. I'm interested to hear what others make of these descriptions.

I cannot make anything definite out of the subjective descriptions Liszt's contemporaries give, but I would hope and expect it was something very close to this:

[pianoman53]

I cannot make anything definite out of the subjective descriptions Liszt's contemporaries give, but I would hope and expect it was something very close to this:

Why, I mean, on what grounds?

[ronde_des_sylphes]

One approach that may be useful is to have a look at the Liszt "transcriptions" by Alexander Siloti.  Siloti was a pupil of Liszt for starters, and was an editor of some of Liszts published works, but more interestingly from your perspective is that as Liszt approached the end of his life he sat down with Siloti to make a painstakingly accurate "transcription" of his own performance of the famous Concert Etude in Db (known today as Un Sospiro). Their purpose was to demonstrate to future generations the difference between Liszt's own performances and his published scores. They saw that those performances were soon to become only a quickly fading memory, and were concerned at how future generations of pianists would deal with only the published scores as guidance. They also intended to set the record straight about some notes that still puzzle attentive pianists today.

There are seven such "transcriptions" of different pieces extant.

I would suggest they provide an insight that mere observational commentary may not.

These are mentioned, with a couple of brief quotes, in Kenneth Hamilton's "After the Golden Age", in the chapter on Liszt and his playing.  (Also mentioned is the Henselt "performance version" of the Lucia di Lammermoor paraphrase).

In part response to the OP, you might be well worth getting hold of the above book, which discusses Liszt's legacy in some detail as well as performance practice of the era and also covering a fair number of his illustrious contemporaries and successors.

[thalbergmad]

Did he claim to sound like Liszt?

He claimed to try to sound like Liszt.

[dima_76557]

Why, I mean, on what grounds?

For different reasons that are hard to describe. Spirit, excuisite touch (I hear no harsh metal there whatsoever), elegance, poetry, lyrical phrasing, brilliance, rhythmic freedom, and relaxed virtuosity, and at the same time reserve and minimum mannersims; everything in service of the music and very much coinciding with what I have read about the older and mature Franz Liszt. I have played that transcription myself and he does some inimitable voicing there, suggesting both orchestra and singing voices. Note-perfectness is, of course, not what you search in such documents, and I am quite sure that Liszt didn't care very much about that either.

Strictly objectively, and as far as I know, he is one of the only in the Carl Czerny piano heritage tree we have a VIDEO clip of. Although in that picture, his roots point to Theodor Leschetizky only, this is not a correct representation. His first teacher, Dmitry Klimov, (before transferring to Theodor Leschetizky) studied with pianist/composer Carl Reinecke, who in turn studied with Felix Mendelssohn, Robert Schumann and... Franz Liszt. Rachmaninoff, who is also in the "family" tree, referred to Moiseiwitsch as his "spiritual heir", which is quite something.

[dima_76557]

very much coinciding with what I have read about the older and mature Franz Liszt.

P.S.: This is, of  course, very subjective, but Liszt in his "wilder" years as I sense it is probably best represented in some elements of the Hungarian and French schools of piano playing:

G. Cziffra testing out a concert grand:

C. Katsaris doing his magic tricks in the Liszt transcription of Beethoven's Pastoral (4th movement):

[thesixthsensemusic]

Reading Borodin's report on Liszt was almost like reading a description of Claudio Arrau's playing.

[chopin2015]

Does anybody know who plays the mephisto valse in the film song without end? That is a great film about Liszt. The la campanella is the best I've ever heard. Dazzling.

[dima_76557]

Does anybody know who plays the mephisto valse in the film song without end? That is a great film about Liszt. The la campanella is the best I've ever heard. Dazzling.

That was Jorge Bolet. He did all the soundtracks there.

[chopin2015]

That was Jorge Bolet. He did all the soundtracks there.

Thank you so much!!

It is crazy how the sound of music changes at different tempos...

[dima_76557]

@ chopin2015

Here is the story of what it took to record it:
tcm.com/this-month/article/178906|0/Song-Without-End.html
P.S.: They first had Van Cliburn in mind for the soundtracks.

[chopin2015]

@ chopin2015

Here is the story of what it took to record it:
tcm.com/this-month/article/178906|0/Song-Without-End.html
P.S.: They first had Van Cliburn in mind for the soundtracks.

Perfect! I really appreciate this.

You don't happen to know where to find the movie song to remember, do you?

[dima_76557]

Perfect! I really appreciate this.

You don't happen to know where to find the movie song to remember, do you?

YouTube has 2 full versions:

(English)
and

(Russian synchronization)

EDIT: I reacted a little too quickly. That is the wrong movie. Here it is, "À Noite Sonhamos" (that's Portuguese, I believe):

(the sound is English)

[chopin2015]

Excellent! I haven't looked for it, in a while. I would not mind purchasing it later, if there is not a place to view it on the internet! Thanks for your help!

[j_menz]

And where can one obtain these?

Sorry for the late reply, somehow missed the question.

I think some of them (at least) are on IMSLP.

Carl Fisher publishes a collection of Siloti that contains them. Available pretty much everywhere - search for "The Alexander Siloti Collection".

[pbryld]

Sorry for the late reply, somehow missed the question.

I think some of them (at least) are on IMSLP.

Carl Fisher publishes a collection of Siloti that contains them. Available pretty much everywhere - search for "The Alexander Siloti Collection".

Ugh, at the price of the "Siloti Collection", be sure I will be searching imslp!
Thanks.

[j_menz]

Ugh, at the price of the "Siloti Collection", be sure I will be searching imslp!
Thanks.

If it's any consolation, it's a very big book, and nicely bound etc.

[asiloti]

One approach that may be useful is to have a look at the Liszt "transcriptions" by Alexander Siloti.  Siloti was a pupil of Liszt for starters, and was an editor of some of Liszts published works, but more interestingly from your perspective is that as Liszt approached the end of his life he sat down with Siloti to make a painstakingly accurate "transcription" of his own performance of the famous Concert Etude in Db (known today as Un Sospiro). Their purpose was to demonstrate to future generations the difference between Liszt's own performances and his published scores. They saw that those performances were soon to become only a quickly fading memory, and were concerned at how future generations of pianists would deal with only the published scores as guidance. They also intended to set the record straight about some notes that still puzzle attentive pianists today.

There are seven such "transcriptions" of different pieces extant.

I would suggest they provide an insight that mere observational commentary may not.

You might find useful for the above discussion the following YouTube video of Siloti informally improvising on the piano (mostly Un Sospiro).  It is extremely poor quality but is only home recording of him playing.