Legato in Schubert Impromptu op. 90 No. 3

[pbryld]

OK, so I'd like to learn this piece, but playing the melody legato is really hard.

You have to switch from 4 to 5 on the same key very often, very fast, while still playing the accompaniment. This seems impossible to me. I saw Brendel on Youtube and he just used 5 most of the time, because with the pedal it doesn't make any difference.
My teacher is a real stickler for playing legato when the scores says so (despite of pedalling), but she is not totally unreasonable.

So, would it be okay to no play it legato, but just use the pedal? Or is it "easy" enough to expect?
I don't want to show up and play the piece, then get told told "Yeah, that's fine, but you need to play legato".

[brogers70]

I've just worked a little on this piece with my teacher. I'd say, use the pedal and don't worry about legato fingering. Just concentrate on making the melody sound like a line; that means paying attention to the volume of each note in the melody than to legato fingering. Think of the piece in one long beat per measure, feel upbeats and down beats, but don't let individual melody notes be strikingly louder or softer than the preceding or following one. So for example the first four Bb's in the melody: play the first one, match the volume of the second one to the decayed volume at the end of the first one, then a slight increase over the decay for the third, and a clear but not heavy handed emphasis on the fourth (a downbeat). If you think of strong and weak beats in the melody and pay attention to them it will sound legato, particularly with thepedal. If you don't, even the pedal won't hold it together.

[iansinclair]

To pedal or not to pedal, that is the question... and there really isn't a good single answer.  First, with regard to the melody (for once, clearly at the top!) it is almost always either 4 or 5.  There are a number of places, however, where you do have to switch fingers quickly -- all the places where the melody is in quarter notes, for example.  On the other hand, those are exactly the places where you do not want a great deal of pedal -- if you use pedal there at all, it must break with each quarter note otherwise those passages will become mushy.  But the fingering is relatively easy: if it's descending, strike the quarter note with 4 on the beat, switch to 5, and carry on.  Ascending just the reverse -- strike the note with 5, switch to 4 and carry on.  It can be played legato, without the pedal at all, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to practice it that way at times.

However... the piece is clearly, very clearly, intended to be played with pedal throughout, at least in my humble opinion, except in one or two places where the bass has a figure in eighths or a trill.  However, the pedal must be released and reapplied at each change in harmonic structure, quite faithfully, otherwise you will get mush.

[pbryld]

Thanks both of you.

Iansinclair: Have you actually played this piece? For me at least, switching from 4 to 5 is very difficult when it's quite fast you and also have to play the accompaniment. Right now I just use whatever is comfortable and change the pedal at each quarter note.

[iansinclair]

Thanks both of you.

Iansinclair: Have you actually played this piece? For me at least, switching from 4 to 5 is very difficult when it's quite fast you and also have to play the accompaniment. Right now I just use whatever is comfortable and change the pedal at each quarter note.

Yes, it is one of the pieces in my regular repertoire which I keep current (I really like it!).  However, keep in mind two things about me -- first, I've been playing for a while; I'm not a great pianist by any stretch of anyone's imagination, but I get by.  Second, I was an organist for most of my life until I retired -- and one of the things organists get very adept at, of dire necessity, is switching fingers(or feet! ) on a key; it's the only way to get a decent legato or long hold in many places, since there is no sustain pedal at all.  So I'm quite used to it.

Cheer up.  You'll get there!  And there is much to be said for using whatever is comfortable, particularly in fingering -- we're all built differently, and one person's fingering may not suit another person at all.

[awesom_o]

and one of the things organists get very adept at, of dire necessity, is switching fingers(or feet! ) on a key; it's the only way to get a decent legato or long hold in many places, since there is no sustain pedal at all.  So I'm quite used to it.

This technique is one of the cornerstones of advanced piano playing!  Czerny describes it at length in Letters to a Young Lady on the Art of Playing the Pianoforte

Finger substitution! It's so key.... it's how skilled players seem to never run out of fingers, no matter what incredible sounds are emerging from the piano!

[dima_76557]

This technique is one of the cornerstones of advanced piano playing!  Czerny describes it at length in Letters to a Young Lady on the Art of Playing the Pianoforte

Finger substitution! It's so key.... it's how skilled players seem to never run out of fingers, no matter what incredible sounds are emerging from the piano!

If you have the technique, the right size of hands, and the ears to do that, yes, but I often hear people who switch fingerings but achieve poor legato for the listener at a distance anyway. 4 things I would emphasize personally on this topic:

1) critically listening to what you want to achieve as a sound image, because legato can also be SUGGESTED in the right context and does not always depend on physically tying the notes;

2) the "right" fingering for what you want to achieve musically (this may include finger switching on one or more notes, but it is not a must). The tone image determines the fingering, not the other way around;

3) keeping the accompanying eight-notes in the right hand super portato, portamento, non-legato (whatever you call that) throughout also helps a lot (if in doubt, listen to Horowitz playing this piece on YouTube). I often hear people trying to play everything in the piece legato, which makes this piece ten times harder than it really is;

4) Not tying what should not be tied is also part of perfect legato. Following Schubert's phrase markings surely helps, and so does singing the piece with your voice and determine where you would breathe. You don't tie where you breathe, and it will sound natural.

[pbryld]

Thanks for your replies!

This technique is one of the cornerstones of advanced piano playing!  Czerny describes it at length in Letters to a Young Lady on the Art of Playing the Pianoforte

Finger substitution! It's so key.... it's how skilled players seem to never run out of fingers, no matter what incredible sounds are emerging from the piano!

Zimerman must have bad technique then, even he doesn't do it, judging by a video of him on YouTube.


It's not that I am unable to switch fingers at all, it is just in the melody line in this piece, because of the speed and the fact you ALSO have to play the accompaniment while playing the melody and switching fingers.
You also have to do it in the bass sometimes - here it of course isn't a problem.

[awesom_o]

Zimerman purportedly has about 7 different fingerings for every passage in his repertoire which he selects according to the acoustics of the hall he is playing in. I reckon that's some pretty advanced piano playing 

[pbryld]

Zimerman purportedly has about 7 different fingerings for every passage in his repertoire which he selects according to the acoustics of the hall he is playing in. I reckon that's some pretty advanced piano playing 

It was your conclusion, not mine

[awesom_o]

But you see, Zimerman SUBSTITUTES fingerings according to the hall acoustics.

You're the one telling me he doesn't do finger substitution.

I would call what he's doing some pretty advanced finger substitution. But that's just my opinion as a pianist and piano teacher

[thesixthsensemusic]

Try and play the harmonic notes in the left hand separately with the fingering as is indicated in your score, and practice the melody in the same manner. Both instances try to relax the fingers you don't use.

This way you embed the finger movements in your motoric memory, making it easier day by day to put them into practice, and meanwhile also increasing your instinctive technical skills.

Practice ONLY the measures at which you encounter a difficult spot, with the last notes of the previous non-problematic measure, and the first notes of the one after, included, so to be able to fit in your practice routine in the context of the whole piece.

Once you can play both parts at for example 20% above the desired speed, multiple times without a single mistake, try and put them together.

If your fingers need to act independently like your 2 hands, treat them the same way as you'd do with 2-handed stuff.