Arpeggio or two fast chords

[qpalqpal]

I am practicing Rachmaninoff's Moment Musical 3. There is a section where the chords are simply too big for my hand. Should I arpeggiate these chords in a smooth way, or would that ruin the meter? Should I play it in two quick chunks, as in the example below? I find this the hardest passage so far.  

[j_menz]

Either is probably fine. If you arpeggiate, you need to make sure you bring out the bottom chord as a distinct entity clearly rather than losing it in the arp.  Two chunks avoids that, but needs to be smooth. You could also do two mini-arpeggios. Have a play and see what you like best.

I'd also suggest that you use the same approach for the other two similar chords, even though you don't strictly need to, so that the sound is consistent across the passage.

[ajspiano]

At the risk of being shot..

The bottom note in both these RH situations is doubled by the lower note of the upper voice - rendering it (for lack of a better word) void so far as harmonic function. Without it you wont get the thick sounding rachmaninoff texture, but you will get the same harmonic function of a 7th in theory..

..I would hate doing that myself, but it is an option if the roll frustrates you and your hand just can't reach to play it all at once.

[j_menz]

At the risk of being shot..

[ajspiano]

Do you have your own private library of these or do you just google them as appropriate?

[j_menz]

Do you have your own private library of these or do you just google them as appropriate?

I like to think of the internet as my own private library anyway.

[ajspiano]

I like to think of the internet as my own private library anyway.

practically nothing about the internet is private.

Also, you should spend more time in the archive.org section than the https://bit.ly/sqQEry section.

[j_menz]

practically nothing about the internet is private.

Not for the rest of you, no.

[qpalqpal]

I rejoice when I see 7 replies only to see that its just back and forth comedy.

Anyways, I've listened to Horowitz play this piece and he arpeggiates almost everything. Maybe he can't reach a lot of the chords. In any case, isn't he the most reliable source for interpretation since he knew Rachmaninoff? I love his rendition the most.

Also, see if you guys can decipher what he does in 5:24-5:30 around, I can only guess that he is arpeggiating seemlessly.

[ajspiano]

My apologies  -

Reply 1 : either is fine

Reply 2 : you could omit the bottom note

Reply 3 : omitting the bottom note destroys the composers intention

Reply 4 : I like the idea of rolling it as 2 separate chords

Reply 6 : ^yeh that probably works ok because its 2 voices, and it provides a clearer differentiation between the two rather than just one arp

Reply 7 : true, but does that really destroy what rach meant anyway? it probably sounds ok both ways..  what if you rolled the bottom notes, in context with the LH and hit the 2 notes in the upper voice together?

......

My speakers don't work here, no listening to vladamir for me - sorry.

[qpalqpal]

What Vlady does is roll down almost on those chords. He plays everything except for the repetitive 7th and hits it right after the chord while holding the pedal. It gives an effect. I really like how he plays it and I almost want to play the same way because it sounds correct. I wonder what Rachmaninoff did. Probably played it all together

[dima_76557]

@ qpalqpal

While Horowitz is in a class of his own, Lazar Berman shows mankind how to play Rachmaninoff naturally, in the best Russian tradition. Never walk past this heavily underrated pianist. I would highly advise you to listen to all 6, but you can click no 3 right away (starts at 11:00) in the description area.

[qpalqpal]

I listened to him before and I like his as well. He doesn't do any sort of arpeggiation, but it still helps to listen to his interpretation. Thanks for that.

[dima_76557]

I listened to him before and I like his as well. He doesn't do any sort of arpeggiation, but it still helps to listen to his interpretation. Thanks for that.

If the chords are too big for you hand, you have a choice between "rolling" or "breaking" (never leave notes out!), but the atmosphere of what you do around that passage should determine what it is going to be, not some 19th-Century mannerism. If you roll in a certain fashion, for example, you should be able to explain to your teacher what the MUSICAL reasons are for doing it the way you do it. "Because my hand is not big enough", "Because Horowitz does it that way", or "Because someone on PianoStreet told me so" are not valid reasons in the context of the music.

EDIT: Just to explain one way of doing it. Let's assume the target note of the melody is a sort of little climax. Now, before a climax it may be a good idea to hold back a little before you give it to the listeners. In that moment of holding back, you have plenty of time to take a chunk of the chord and then land on the essentials exactly at the critical moment. If you do that with taste, you won't even get questions, because it is musically logical, you see?
P.S.: Besides, such an approach may even lead to redistribution of the notes between the hands, and the problem of hand size is gone!

[qpalqpal]

I have another question that is unrelated to the original question. Sorry 

In the part of the piece with the octave funeral march, the octaves are played staccato. Does that mean I shouldn't use pedal? If I shouldn't, do I need to have legato sixths for the right hand? How would I do that (It seemed very difficult)?

Thanks for all the input!

Esteban