How to practice sostenuto pedal with an upright

[wwalrus]

I'm playing Grieg's concerto right now, and in the edition I'm using, a lot of sostenuto pedal is required. Eventually, I'll play the concerto with my mother in a concert using 2 pianos, and I would ideally be on a grand. how can i practice the sostenuto pedal when uprights don't have them?

[iansinclair]

er... um... get your little sister to hold the key down?   Seriously, I can't think of a way to actually get the effect of the sostenuto with an upright (very few uprights have them; you are not alone).  Just sort of an off the cuff idea, though, to get used to the required foot movement, could you use the soft pedal instead?  It would at least get you accustomed to where and for how long to hold the sostenuto pedal, when you finally do get hold of one.

Not the best idea, but the best I can think of right now...

[quantum]

You could stick pencils in the keys to get the effect.  Or get a digital piano with the feature to somewhat get the feel of it.  As Ian suggests, you could just practice the physical foot movements. 

Realistically though, adjustments are more in the auditory realm as opposed to physical.  You will need to be listening and reacting in real-time in order to make the most of the sostenuto, just as you practice with the sustain pedal. 

[nyiregyhazi]

You could stick pencils in the keys to get the effect.  Or get a digital piano with the feature to somewhat get the feel of it.  As Ian suggests, you could just practice the physical foot movements.  

Realistically though, adjustments are more in the auditory realm as opposed to physical.  You will need to be listening and reacting in real-time in order to make the most of the sostenuto, just as you practice with the sustain pedal.  

Really? Obviously value of listening in general goes without saying. But it's nothing like the right pedal. Either you've caught the notes you want or you haven't. What can listening do other than confirm you did catch the notes or reveal a gaping hole in the sound? The physical coordination merely leads to success or failure in catching the notes and there is no scope for further adaptation based on what you hear- unlike the constant spur of the moment adaptations that good listening inspire in use of the right pedal.


Most use of the middle pedal occurs with abundant time to use the same basic coordination of regular syncopated pedalling ie play the note first,  depress the pedal and only let go after that definitely already happened. you can practise that by using the left foot on the sustain pedal. However, if it takes any significant work (rather than mere awareness of where you'd perform a very standard procedure with the unusual foot)  it suggests the pedalling may be needlessly complex. I don't particularly believe in use of the middle pedal in ways complex enough that you'd have to worry about mistiming it- whether you've specifically practised it that way or not. I'd never use it under rhythmic pressure- so the difficulty of coordination is simply a non-issue. what context does this edition suggest it in?

[pianoman53]

With the right pedal, there are a few "rules" to follow, and it becomes very obvious if you break them. Same thing if you do a mistake with the pedal, eg. missing the bass note, and create a whole in the sound.
The left pedal isn't the same. As far as I know, the only rule is "if it sounds good, it's good". You should try to get a feel of it, so that you don't get stuck on it.

[quantum]

Really? Obviously value of listening in general goes without saying. But it's nothing like the right pedal. Either you've caught the notes you want or you haven't.

Yes, really.  I would argue that the use of the middle pedal is far more involved than a simple catch the note, or not.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes, really.  I would argue that the use of the middle pedal is far more involved than a simple catch the note, or not.

Specifically how? With the right pedal the slightest difference in the timing of depression changes how overtones accumulate and there are infinite subtle variations that can be achieved by linking ear and foot. With the middle pedal, you've either locked the dampers from ending the note in time, or you ain't. That's as sophisticated as it gets- as there is no difference to the sound whether you catch it quite early or at the last available moment.

The fingers will have to adapt slightly to make the overall blend of sound right, but the foot can merely get it one hundred percent right or one hundred percent wrong. unlike with the right pedal, the ear plays literally no role in the coordination except when it informs you that you already screwed up beyond repair. In terms of adapting what the fingers do, nothing will even begin to emulate an absent middle pedal. All you can do is have mental clarity about what simple coordination of movement to add (and practise that by learning to use the right pedal with your left foot). The difficulty is solely  in mild tonal adaptation from the fingers, not the foot (unless you're needlessly challenging yourself to catch exceedingly short notes). The ear plays no part at all in the feedback loop of the pedal action itself.

[nyiregyhazi]

Following up from that, I just tried pedalling some passages from a scriabin sonata with my left foot. Although it has the coordination to time middle pedal usage, I was actually pretty shocked at how poor it was at timing the subtleties of sustain pedalling. Where I wanted a really clean sound I often mistimed and left a level of blur I'd never get even by outrageous accident when using my right foot. Although all pedalling involves some instinctive adaptations from the ear, it reminded me how strongly it's actually linked into physical actions. My "ear" is apparently pretty good at pedalling as long as I use my right foot but not if I use my left. It made me realise that there's less spur of the moment correction than you might think- but rather a more sensitive existing physical habit for the timings of actions that produce the intended sound. Swap feet and all the subtleties may vanish. Regardless of how acutely I listened I was only able to observe flaws, not able to make spur of the moment adaptations that would put me right on the intended track. I'd recommend trying some left footed pedalling to anyone- as you can end up experiencing pedalling as a relative beginner.

[dima_76557]

Although all pedalling involves some instinctive adaptations from the ear, it reminded me how strongly it's actually linked into physical actions.

I can relate to that very well. As I see it, the role of the ear is greatly misunderstood during the musical learning process. It seems to me that hearing is a special kind of touch (if Google Translate has it right, then in Italian "sentir" means "to hear", and "sentire" means "to feel") to stay "in touch" with the music, only a delayed one. How much more important is the inner expectation of the sound you want, and how much faster is the sensation of the movement that has to cause that sound! The ear is there to check whether the result corresponds with the expectation, but it can only be used to correct after the deed that has already been done; it has not so much to do with actually producing the sound. For successful learning, one should "listen" more to one's body, instead of "hearing" a result that cannot be changed after the act.

EDIT: I had to look up where I got that idea: Evelyn Glennie, a profoundly deaf professional musician, wrote similar things in 1993 already:
https://www.evelyn.co.uk/Resources/Essays/Hearing%20Essay.pdf

[indianajo]

If Wwalrus is still listening, learn to play the piece two ways.  One way is for performance on an upright, and involves making changes in the score to make a suitable sound.
The other way is using the sostenuto pedal, which is a nice feature, but is generally not available in any performance venue that would allow me to play (church fellowship halls, nursing homes).  
For example, on some fifteenth span chords in Pictures at an Exhibition I play some bass notes in the middle of the right hand chord on an upright.  On other fifteenths with non-simutaneous stike time, I play the bass note with the heel of my left foot (with socks and no shoes).  With a sostenuto pedal, neither modification is necessary.