adult students, practicing and relatives/family

[lorcar]

38yo here, started to study again after 20+years of interruption. I work as a desk jockey so leave at 9am in the morning and get back at around 7pm. I live with my gf, same age. We have normal life, home and errands to run, friends, other interests, some travel here and there, sports, gym, movies, etc.
I got a Yamaha Silent, so I can practice with headphone at late night or early in the morning (630am). During the wknd though I try to study with no headphone. But I understand that all these repetitions and playing the same piece are driving nuts my gf. It's almost terrible for the one who plays, but for someone else I figure it should be even worse.  The same piece, the same bars over and over again and again. Now it's 1,5 months which I am on Chopin Waltz 69/2 in b min and she cant stand it anymore.
How do you manage that? anyone with the same problem?

[dima_76557]

@ lorcar

You actually need neither the headphones, nor the actual sound practice all the time. If you really concentrate, you can practise the notes correctly with the sound turned OFF until you are sure of yourself. As soon as you think you are ready, you can put the sound on. I think your girlfriend will be grateful for your approach in all respects (you sitting with a headphone on may also annoy her, because you shut yourself off from contact with her), and I am quite sure your learning will go a lot faster too.

[lorcar]

DIma,
thanks for your reply, but not necessarily agree. I never tried the way you mention, but I guess it might be correct to learn the first broad hands and fingers movement. But after this phase, when you have to study the pedal, the colors, the sound, the touch, I guess sounds becomes predominant.
I am studying this

and I am now focusing on the first part, before it goes B major.
When I play without pedal, there are almost no mistakes.
When I play with headphone and use the pedal, I'd say it's ok, although I do more mistakes.
When I play with the pedal and no headphone, number of misshapes increases exponentially and the sound is not that good, to say the least. My main problem is with the left hand: my chords are not perfect because the fingers do not push at the same time, and the pedal amplifies all little mistakes; my little finger is weak and not precise, meaning that when I reach the key it might slip over. Also the touch itself is too loud or too low,   and with the pedal becomes even worse.

Why do I mention this? because I guess playing without headphone and work on the real sound is what I need at this point.

PS if I you sit really concentrate, it's also like shutting yourself off from her, even if NO sound :-)

[lojay]

I have the opposite problem from you.  My parents and neighbors worry if I'm okay when they don't hear me practice for a few days/weeks.

I do have certain suspicions about your situation though.  Record a minute or so the next time you practice, and perhaps I can give you a possible solution .

[dima_76557]

@ lorcar

If you think you are ready for this piece, and still have all that trouble, then "Listening", or in your case "Hearing", is not going to be of much help here. You need to change your approach and realize that you can only really learn through repetition if all movements you make are well-planned and correct, EVERY TIME.

1) Hands separately and without pedal, because you are obviously not ready yet to combine everything you have to do in this piece;
2) More slowly, for the same reason.

[outin]

@Lorcar

Dima's advice is very sound as usual. But if you've already been working on this for 1,5 months and you still struggle with getting the chords play properly, maybe it would be better to try to find some easier material to learn first. Maybe several of them to make it a bit less taxing for your girlfriend.

Practicing mistakes and lack of basic technique isn't going to make you progress faster. Most of us adult returners have to go through the frustration that the pieces we would really like to play are beoynd our reach at first. We hear the beautiful music in our heads and try to reproduce it without actually having the tools. Concentrating on trying to sound good often leads to lack of concentration and shortcuts with movements and techniques and interferes with our progress. In my own head I sounded worse for a long time when my teacher started working on my technique.

I have noticed that no matter how difficult something may seem first (technically), if the piece is within reach I should manage to get any measure/phrase right within a few practice sessions. What takes me a long time is to get the pieces solidly memorized, but I wouldn't even try if I cannot actually play every measure correctly first. I would put the piece aside and decide to return to it later. I wasn't that wise in my first year. The pieces I insisted on practicing even when too difficult will probably be ruined forever...

EDIT: I have a Yamaha silent as well. The reason it sounds better with earphones may be because of the ready made sound and because the acoustic mode is so much louder that everything comes out...You might also be tensing in your playing because you are not used to the loudness of the real piano sound. I sometimes notice I am subconsciously trying to keep the volume down when playing, which leads to all kinds of problems...

[lojay]

Look at the can of worms I opened.

My god, you guys are brutal! I was half joking with my post...

[quantum]

Talk to your girlfriend about it.  If music plays a significant portion of your life, the people you live with need to be aware of it, and accept it as part of who you are.  Practicing, and repetition are part of being a musician and anyone living with you should expect that you will be partaking in regular practice regimen.  If you are intending a long time relationship with your girlfriend, she needs to know practicing is part of your everyday life - just as much as playing sports, writing books or studying bugs is important to other people.

[lorcar]

@ lorcar

1) Hands separately and without pedal, because you are obviously not ready yet to combine everything you have to do in this piece;
2) More slowly, for the same reason.

I am not sure I get what you mean. I think I am fine playing with both hands together without pedal. WHy should I go back to hands separetely without pedal?

[lorcar]

Practicing mistakes and lack of basic technique isn't going to make you progress faster.

 Concentrating on trying to sound good often leads to lack of concentration and shortcuts with movements and techniques and interferes with our progress. In my own head I sounded worse for a long time when my teacher started working on my technique.

 I have a Yamaha silent as well. 

thanks

maybe you are right.
The point is that last time i saw my teacher was mid June, and now in August everything is shut down here in Italy, so I have been w/o teacher so far. I will start again with a teacher in September. I choose the piece on my own simply because I like it and I had been told it was the easiest waltz after the one in A minor which I had studied with my teacher already.

Yes, it's 1,5 months, but consider I usually play in the morning before work or at night before going to bed, so we are not talking of 1,5 months 8 hours a day....

[lorcar]

I do have certain suspicions about your situation though.  Record a minute or so the next time you practice, and perhaps I can give you a possible solution .

sorry i have no idea how to record from it. PLz share what you think!

[outin]

thanks

maybe you are right.
The point is that last time i saw my teacher was mid June, and now in August everything is shut down here in Italy, so I have been w/o teacher so far. I will start again with a teacher in September. I choose the piece on my own simply because I like it and I had been told it was the easiest waltz after the one in A minor which I had studied with my teacher already.

Yes, it's 1,5 months, but consider I usually play in the morning before work or at night before going to bed, so we are not talking of 1,5 months 8 hours a day....

Who practices piano 8 hours a day with a full time job?? 
I usually practice about an hour daily, more on the weekends and I usually have 3-4 pieces to work with.

You teacher will certainly be the best person to help you. Sometimes just a little change is what is needed to make it better

[outin]

I am not sure I get what you mean. I think I am fine playing with both hands together without pedal. WHy should I go back to hands separetely without pedal?

Although most Chopin sounds pretty weird without the pedal, I still practice without is occasionally to make sure I am doing everything right. The pedal changes the end result so much that slight problems with technique tend to go unnoticed and then stick.
Also pieces that I have already learnt to play hands together often require going back to hands separate because it isn't going as smootly as it should. So I think it's worth it to try Dima's advice. It felt a bit frustrating to me too in the beginning but after noticing that it actually works I don't mind so much taking a few steps back in the process every now and then. Normally I don't even see the effect at once, but rather the next practice session things have miraculously improved...

[lojay]

sorry i have no idea how to record from it. PLz share what you think!

It's not constructive so I'm going to refrain.

You should still figure out how to record yourself though.  You may be shocked to actually hear yourself play when you're not actually playing.

[lorcar]

Who practices piano 8 hours a day with a full time job?? 
I usually practice about an hour daily, more on the weekends and I usually have 3-4 pieces to work with.

You teacher will certainly be the best person to help you. Sometimes just a little change is what is needed to make it better

last year my teacher used to give me a piece from Trinity level 3 every week, because I could master during that time, while at the same time I was working on a piece of Trinity level 5, which took me frustration and months.
How do you structure you work on 4 pieces?

[outin]

last year my teacher used to give me a piece from Trinity level 3 every week, because I could master during that time, while at the same time I was working on a piece of Trinity level 5, which took me frustration and months.
How do you structure you work on 4 pieces?

I don't really have any fixed stucture. I work on different things depending on my mood and condition.

I have some pieces that I have not mastered in a year while some have only been worked on a few weeks. We don't really polish pieces with my teacher, after she thinks I've got it we move on. The pieces that I really like I keep working on my own afterwards. So most practice sessions during the lessons I work on polishing some older piece and something of each of the newer pieces. The pieces are usually in different phase of learning. I may work on a short section or I may play hands separate. Or practice the whole piece if I can. I don't necessarily work every day on a piece, sometimes it's good to let it rest a bit.
 
But since I am very slow on memorizing the notes and a terribly unreliable reader, I will try to find shorter pieces this Autumn. 2 months on just learning the notes of a 4 page piece is frustrating. It has been better on the summer, but I know that with all the work pressure during the busier seasons my brain can only handle small amount of memory work...

[bronnestam]

sorry i have no idea how to record from it. PLz share what you think!

I don't understand what you mean with this? You have a Silent piano and you cannot record from it??? There is a REC-button ... Or did you mean you must videotape yourself while you are playing? An assistant with a mobile phone camera, maybe ...

Although most Chopin sounds pretty weird without the pedal, I still practice without is occasionally to make sure I am doing everything right. The pedal changes the end result so much that slight problems with technique tend to go unnoticed and then stick.
Also pieces that I have already learnt to play hands together often require going back to hands separate because it isn't going as smootly as it should. So I think it's worth it to try Dima's advice. It felt a bit frustrating to me too in the beginning but after noticing that it actually works I don't mind so much taking a few steps back in the process every now and then. Normally I don't even see the effect at once, but rather the next practice session things have miraculously improved...

Interesting point about the pedal here. Well, I also agree that practicing with hands separated is a very good tool even when you think you can play with hands together. It also helps up the memorization work. Even the most famous pianists work in this way from time to time. When you play with both hands (and pedal!) you involve your whole body in a coordinated process, which becomes more and more established every time you practice. Sometimes you include these little annoying flaws in this process, which then are terribly hard to get rid of. OK, maybe I should not have written "sometimes" because nobody plays perfectly. 

[lorcar]

I don't understand what you mean with this? You have a Silent piano and you cannot record from it??? There is a REC-button ... Or did you mean you must videotape yourself while you are playing? An assistant with a mobile phone camera, maybe ...
 

no rec button on my yamaha, as far as i know

[lorcar]

EDIT: I have a Yamaha silent as well. The reason it sounds better  ...the acoustic mode is so much louder that everything comes out...You might also be tensing in your playing because you are not used to the loudness of the real piano sound. I sometimes notice I am subconsciously trying to keep the volume down when playing, which leads to all kinds of problems...

i think you got it right. I am trying to play with a light left hand, but my result is either no sound at all or too loud....
I am struggling to find a balance between the RH melody and LH bass chords... the pedal is killing me...