Most pianistic and unpianistic composers ever?

[classicalnhiphop]

My votes for most pianistic: Liszt, rachmaninoff, chopin
Unpianistic:

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Unpianistic?

Me.

[ale_ius]

Unpianistic-> Vivaldi
Pianoistic -->Kapustin
,Alee Marie.

[redbaron]

Most pianistic: Chopin, Bach
Most unpianistic: Schumann, Brahms is pretty awkward too

[ahinton]

Unpianistic?

Me.

I didn't know that you are a composer.

Given the reasonable assumption that the vast majority - if not all - of those considerd to be or to have been the most pianistic are and/or will have been pianists themselves, I wonder if the other part of this thread dealing with those considered to be the most unpianistic might better concentrate on those who might nevertheless have been pianists (such as Brahms, who's already been mentioned, albeit quite unfairly, I think) or those who, even if they weren't pianists, still contributed to the repertoire of the piano, of which the first example that springs to my mind - with four sonatas, a set of variations for piano and orchestra and a concerto to his name - is Tippett.

Best,

Alistair

[dima_76557]

Most pianistic and unpianistic composers ever?

Liszt comes natural to me. I can always feel the logic of how he places his hands on the keyboard to produce his musical ideas. If you can fulfil the sometimes insane motoric requirements, then he is probably the most pianistic. I have trouble defining for myself what "unpianistic" is. The list of composers with sometimes really awkward passages in their works is endless, but that is most likely my own fault, not theirs.

[lucianeldred]

Un-pianistic? Without a doubt, Schoenberg.

[ahinton]

Un-pianistic? Without a doubt, Schoenberg.

I cannot pretend to disagree, yet he's another example of a composer with several sets of piano pieces including a Suite, as well as a concerto, to his credit!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Tippett.

YUCKKKKKKK. Where is me sick bucket.

[faulty_damper]

Do you people actually think Chopin is pianistic?  Ever play his Ballades or his sonatas?

[pianoman53]

I was just going to say that Chopin is rather unpianistic. It's just very awkward. Beethoven is also not my favorite in that sense.. I mean, who writes parallel 4ths?! It seems awfully mean to me.

[ahinton]

YUCKKKKKKK. Where is me sick bucket.

I have no idea; nor, do I suspect, do other members here. I am sorry to hear that you are unwell.

Best,

Alistair

[j_menz]

nor, do I suspect, do other members here.

I'd assumed it was next to Thal's "Complete Works of Schumann".

[sirpazhan]

classicalnhiphop should add the definition of 'pianistic' and 'un-pianistic' -- since there are members on here who actually think Chopin is 'un-pianistic'

[ahinton]

I'd assumed it was next to Thal's "Complete Works of Schumann".

You mean he's long since disposed of it? Oh, dear! That'll be some mess on the carpet to clear up, then! One can only advise the need to be careful when you Tippett.

To be serious, though, my mention of Tippett was in the specific context of what might be argued to be unpianistic piano music from a composer who neverthess chose to devote considerable energies to writing for the instrument over almost half a century (1936-84); it was not intended to be read as any kind of judgement of Tippett the composer.

Best,

Alistair

[to4ko99]

I'd say Schumann is very unpianistic /and boring, too/.

[kitty on the keys]

pianistic    Brahms & Ravel

unpianistic-----Chopin Schumann Schubert

Kitty on the Keys

[lojay]

classicalnhiphop should add the definition of 'pianistic' and 'un-pianistic' -- since there are members on here who actually think Chopin is 'un-pianistic'

I remember reading/hearing an interview with Marc Andre Hamelin where he said he found Chopin's music EXTREMELY unpianistic.  On the flip side, he mentioned that the most pianistic composer was Medtner.

I can think of a few other world class pianists commenting on how unpianistic Chopin's music is.

Note that these pianists were undoubtedly speaking purely from a performers perspective.  I feel that the composers we care to listen to, when played well, should sound pianistic although they may be awkward as hell to the performer.

classicalnhiphop should add the definition of 'pianistic' and 'un-pianistic' -- since there are members on here who actually think Chopin is 'un-pianistic'

I also think it's important to define pianistic.  Are we talking about the musical, as in what we eventually end up hearing? Or are we talking about the mechanical (playing/unplayable a composer is)?

I have to agree with Chopin being unpianistic (from a performer's perspective of course).  Take the Bb minor Sonata for example.  You find playing the left hand of the first page comfortable?  Do you find those polyrhythms comfortable?

[lojay]

I don't think the Chopin Sonata is played by too many people, so I thought of another example that's played by many many students: Chopin Nocturne, op. 9 no. 1.

I think the people who can legitimately state that they don't find his music awkward just don't remember when the piano was awkward for them (they had beastly techniques from a young age).

[j_menz]

Take the Bb minor Sonata for example.  You find playing the left hand of the first page comfortable?  Do you find those polyrhythms comfortable?

Do you have the right piece - there are no polyrhythms on the first page, and the ones that first occur are 3-2 ones, about as comfortable as it gets.

I find Chopin very pianistic. Not always easy, but that is hardly the same thing.

Mendelssohn, on the other hand, I find surprisingly awkward. His sister too, in the same way.

[lojay]

Do you have the right piece - there are no polyrhythms on the first page, and the ones that first occur are 3-2 ones, about as comfortable as it gets.

I find Chopin very pianistic. Not always easy, but that is hardly the same thing.

Mendelssohn, on the other hand, I find surprisingly awkward. His sister too, in the same way.

I was thinking about the 2nd page and onwards for the polyrhythms.  I decided to read through the piece recently because of a forum post.  This one measure (and the transition to the next measure) drove me crazy where the right hand plays I think Bb, Ab, Bb, Ab, Db, Eb while the left hand plays a quarter note followed by six eighth notes. It's seemingly VERY easy if you're just looking at it on paper.  Strangely enough, I don't have any issues when the same rhythm (3 by 4) that occurs on the same page or even later on in the development (technically, these other similar segments should be harder because the right hand is a lot more active and playing chords).  I really think it's that quarter note in the left hand and the transition...

Anyway, I'm not learning the piece but I'm planning to start on it in a few months after I finish up my current repertoire.


I haven't read through/studied much Mendelssohn.  I'm only familiar with the Rondo Capriccioso, Variations Serieuses, and several song without words.  From what I recall among those pieces, everything is very comfortable with the exception of the first 2 variations (they sound so easy, but they kicked my ass more than the more virtuostic sounding parts of the piece).  Can you recommend something that's particularly awkward by him?  I'm curious now loL!

[j_menz]

Can you recommend something that's particularly awkward by him?  I'm curious now loL!

Nothing that is particularly so. I just find pretty much all of him unnecessarily awkward. Not to a major degree, but enough to irritate me. It's possible that we just have differently configured hands.

[faulty_damper]

Yes, we need a better definition of "pianistic" in this thread because it can be interpreted two different ways.  My first thought on this topic was pianistic sounding, not pianistic comfort-wise.

Pianistic sounding composers: Scriabin, Rachmaninov, Liszt (sometimes), Chopin, Mozart
Un-pianistic composers: Alkan, Bach, Beethoven

[mjames]

Pianistic...scriabin...

His music just flows with the flow. So fluid.

[patrickd]

The most pianistic composers I have played so far are Godowsky, Medtner, and Prokofiev, however the most unpianistic would have to be Brahms for me.

[lojay]

Un-pianistic composers: Alkan, Bach, Beethoven

I agree with the Bach 100%, why the Beethoven though?  I feel that Beethoven's earlier works are unpianistic, but overall he's written so many more pianistic sounding compositions.

[lojay]

The most pianistic composers I have played so far are Godowsky, Medtner, and Prokofiev, however the most unpianistic would have to be Brahms for me.

By pianistic/unpianistic you're talking about performing and learning right?

I'm familiar with a lot of Prokofiev and I cannot see where you're coming from with the Prokofiev.

[blazekenny]

Pianistic : Liszt, Brahms, Beethoven, Haydn, Rachmaninoff, earlier Prokofieff, Smetana
Unpianistic : Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Dvořák, Janáček, Suk

I cant understand how people think of Chopin as pianistic just because he has wrote everything with a piano included. Till now I thought its a widely known fact. A week ago Brendel had a lecture here where he confirmed it aswell.

[patrickd]

By pianistic/unpianistic you're talking about performing and learning right?

I'm familiar with a lot of Prokofiev and I cannot see where you're coming from with the Prokofiev.

For me the Prokofiev's music fits very well under the hands despite the difficulty, making his music comfortable to play.

[nufan]

To me, Schubert has a very "pianistic" feel. The movements in his Impromptus, for example, feel very natural, as opposed to most Chopin pieces.

[fnork]

Most unpianistic: Schumann, Brahms is pretty awkward too

I strongly disagree with Brahms. He had his own way of thinking at the piano not similar to Liszt or Chopin. But through his excercises and etudes (and large-scale variation sets, like Handel varations), one gains understanding of his thinking at the piano. By etudes I meant the Paganini variations, btw.

[j_menz]

By etudes I meant the Paganini variations, btw.

I had not previously thought of them in this way, but you are so right!

[schubert_21]

Bach fugues are sometimes very awkward to play.  Same for Ravel.  I think it depends on the size of your hand, though.  Mozart fits nicely in my hands.

[hellsing6661]

In my opinion it depends on how composers wrote a piece - for example: Chopin, Liszt and so on composed using the piano for writing, and they were pretty good pianists. So, to my mind most pianistic composers would be: Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, Scriabin (not always).

Unpianistic composers made music by their "ear" - they wrote not what they played on keyboard, just what they heard in their heads. Brilliant example - Bach, late Beethoven (op. 90 and up), Schubert (very tricky and very uncomfortable in playing). Sometimes Mozart, Scarlatti.

[lojay]

Unpianistic composers made music by their "ear" - they wrote not what they played on keyboard, just what they heard in their heads. Brilliant example - Bach, late Beethoven (op. 90 and up), Schubert (very tricky and very uncomfortable in playing). Sometimes Mozart, Scarlatti.

I'm curious, specifically which Schubert pieces do you find very tricky and very uncomfortable?  I'm not well acquainted to Schubert's music, I'm only familiar with a few Sonatas, moment musicals, and impromptus, but what I am familiar with is extremely comfortable.

[carpbear]

I don't enjoy playing Chopin with two hands because his music doesn't lie very well under my fingers, and certainly not as well as Liszt.

I don't know if I'd go so far to say that Chopin is "unpianistic" -- I have rather small hands.  For people who have "lion's paw" hands, it might lie under their fingers rather well.

Brahms was one of the greatest of the 19th century pianists, but he wrote his music away from the piano.  It's for that reason that people call his music "unpianistic" -- but it's not really unpianistic, per se -- I think of it more as "expanded pianism" and if you're going to play the 20th century composers, you really need to get Brahms with his "expanded pianism" under your belt.  Being able to play Brahms securely and confidently makes composers such as Stravinsky, Hindemith, Shostakovich and Messiaen much easier to play. 

I think Schoenberg's Suite, op. 25 is one of the most unpianistic things ever composed -- and just downright ugly music!  Webern's Variations, op. 27 are not pianistic, but once one has the musical lines in one's ear you can redistribute the notes between the hands and that makes it much more pianistic.

For music which is thick, doesn't lie well under the fingers, and is just awkward to play, nobody tops Ralph Vaughn-Williams. 

[hellsing6661]

I'm curious, specifically which Schubert pieces do you find very tricky and very uncomfortable?

Be my guest - please, look at his late Sonatas - especially G major, c minor and B flat major. They look and sound innocent, but they are not.

However, pianism of a piece is not only reduced to will of composer. Remember also about the player factor - there's a lot of "tricks" which can help you play something - for example - La campanella by Liszt. As the matter of fact, it isn't as hard as some of TE. It needs gripping right hands 5th finger. That's all the secret.

[prestoconfuocco]

The ones you listed are the obvious ones, and I think Debussy should join them.
Unpianistic - Brahms is pretty clumsy like redbaron said, and Tchaikovsky too. But I think they're just disappointing beacuse their orchestral music is so wonderful and it sucks that they don't live up to the expectations in piano.

[awesom_o]

What does pianistic and unpianistic mean?

Is the little piece I wrote the other day and posted in the Audition Room sounding and looking more 'pianistic' or more 'unpianistic' ?

[outin]

I have no idea what pianistic means, my teacher often says my pieces  are "unpianistic", while they feel much more natural for me to play than the things that are supposed to be more pianistic 

Maybe it depends on the size and shape of one's hands. Chopin is probably more natural to play if you can use his suggested fingerings and make things into "chunks" that the hand can cover without moving too much. But it becomes really tedious to learn when one has to move the hands all the time...

[thorn]

I think the terms are a little vague. I also think it's difficult to blanket the entire piano works of a particular composer with the term.

I would say, for example, that both Chopin and Debussy's etudes are pianistic, but other things they wrote were less so. I believe it was Yvonne Lefebure who when asked the Debussy vs Ravel question answered 'from a musical standpoint, Debussy, from a pianistic standpoint, Ravel". I would be inclined to say the same thing of Chopin vs Liszt...

I find Scriabin and Szymanowski very difficult to judge once you get beyond their early works.

When we come to modern composers... Takemitsu was not a pianist and some passages in his works are incredibly awkward. The Ligeti I have played feels to my hands like it was written by someone who knew the piano (even if that someone uses knowledge of the piano to make life very difficult for pianists).

To end on the above thought... I think we have to be careful where we put the line between "difficult" and "unpianistic".

[redbaron]

The ones you listed are the obvious ones, and I think Debussy should join them.
Unpianistic - Brahms is pretty clumsy like redbaron said, and Tchaikovsky too. But I think they're just disappointing beacuse their orchestral music is so wonderful and it sucks that they don't live up to the expectations in piano.

I don't agree that their piano music is disappointing. It may be awkward to play but it is excellent music, indeed I would take the piano works over the orchestral works of these two composers any day.

[prestoconfuocco]

I don't agree that their piano music is disappointing. It may be awkward to play but it is excellent music, indeed I would take the piano works over the orchestral works of these two composers any day.

It certainly is excellent music, but it can't be compared (EVER!) to their orchestral or choral works. I can't believe anyone would take Tchaikovsky's sonata in C-sharp minor over one of his symphonies, or one of Brhams' rhapsodies over his requiem. That's just impossible.

[redbaron]

It certainly is excellent music, but it can't be compared (EVER!) to their orchestral or choral works. I can't believe anyone would take Tchaikovsky's sonata in C-sharp minor over one of his symphonies, or one of Brhams' rhapsodies over his requiem. That's just impossible.

Of the composers that I consider my favourites, I tend to gravitate more towards their piano music than their orchestral works. As wonderful as Brahms' Requiem or symphonies are, I don't think they compare to the melodic content and textural sonorities he extracted from the piano.

[prestoconfuocco]

Of the composers that I consider my favourites, I tend to gravitate more towards their piano music than their orchestral works. As wonderful as Brahms' Requiem or symphonies are, I don't think they compare to the melodic content and textural sonorities he extracted from the piano.

Never met anybody who thinks this, but I guess everybody's entitled to their own opinion.

[redbaron]

Never met anybody who thinks this, but I guess everybody's entitled to their own opinion.

Well surely it makes sense? We're all pianists with an incredible and profound love for the instrument and this is a forum geared towards just such an attitude so it can't be that hard to believe that somebody might prefer a Brahms rhapsody or intermezzo to a symphony...?

[awesom_o]

I agree with prestoconfuoco....

I would say my love for the instrument is fairly profound... but more and more I'm interested in playing the great orchestral repertoire for piano duo and piano duet.

It helps to have a good partner.

Solo playing is a more lonely experience.... and I believe that music should be about bringing people together!

TUTTI FOR LIFE

[david456103]

pianistic: chopin, liszt(easier works)
unpianistic: rachmaninoff by far

[prestoconfuocco]

pianistic: chopin, liszt(easier works)
unpianistic: rachmaninoff by far

whatwhatwhatwhatwhatwhatwhatwhatwhatwhatwhatwhatwhatwhatwhat?

[awesom_o]

That's what I'm saying... what does pianistic actually mean? How is it different from unpianistic?