Teaching note-values to an adult student

[m1469]

I have an adult student who is actually a pretty persistent student.  She doesn't do a lot of practicing but has actually still been progressing over the last couple of years by learning quite a bit during her lessons.  

There is one particular challenge she has though that really kind of baffles me and I don't know how to approach it in a way that she can understand.  The names for the notes; whole notes, half notes, quarter note, eighth note, sixteenth notes, etc. confuses her.  She can't wrap her head around these not being fractions within a measure in an absolute way.  So, she always wants, for example, an eighth note to = an eighth of the measure.  In 4/4 time no problem.  But, in something like 6/8 time, she is completely confused about why there are only 6 eighth notes and hates that they aren't an eighth of the measure.

I have tried explaining this to her in many ways.  We've imagined and literally used parts of apples, I've explained that these note-values are ultimately only in relation to each other (for example, two half notes will *always* = a whole note, no matter what time signature), but she's still got something in her mind that I don't know how to untwist!  It's frustrating.

So, I'm wondering if there happens to be anybody who has had a student with a similar problem, or if you yourself had one ... and how did this idea of fractions for the note names and those in relation to the measure and time signature, smooth itself out?  Does anybody have any note-value teaching ideas that are super helpful in teaching when the idea isn't readily understood with normal methods?

[ajspiano]

couldn't you describe the notes with their other names rather than fractional names..

this is a crotchet, it is 1/2 the length of a minum.

so the fraction is only used in reference to the absolute note value and you never say something like their are 3 quarter notes in this bar of 3/4 time, only that there are 3 crotchets or 6 quavers etc.

atleast until the concept is more settled into her mind.

[j_menz]

I still get annoyed that a "whole note" is a semi-breve and a breve is "two whole notes".

[ajspiano]

I still get annoyed that a "whole note" is a semi-breve and a breve is "two whole notes".

lol, me too.

[j_menz]

It appears only the French are sensible about this:



(At least so far as the languages represented are concerned)

[outin]

Is it possible that she does not really understand the idea of different meters at all? Have you tried to give her homework: Pen and paper exercises with different meters where you have to put in the bar lines. Starting with something simple enough to not overwhelm her. She might not be able to concentrate enough on lessons to understand.

I have a friend who takes piano lessons but used to come to me to ask about rhythm and note values all the time. She just did not get the general idea at all. She was trying to memorize note values without having any framework in her mind. She needed a really thorough explanation and paperwork to get it, something that may be hard to do on a half hour piano lesson.

[m1469]

Thank you for your responses!  This is actually helping me.  Though I'm still not positive how to get her untwisted, I think I'm starting to get an idea here.  She is *definitely* a concept person and needs to have bigger concepts to hook details to, which I can completely appreciate.  We have worked with her writing stuff out on paper and on white boards and going one direction and then the other, and there are parts that she understands and just when I think she's about to have the breakthrough, she circles back around to the confusion for herself ... as though she goes through certain mental steps and then reaches a very specific point and just gets tripped up again.  I just can't figure out what that specific point is inside of her head.

BUT, even though I've had her work with filling in measures or drawing bar lines, and those within different meters, maybe there's still a kind of all-enveloping concept that is missing for her.  I admit I'm not sure what that would be, but perhaps I'm getting there.  She takes hour-long lessons and is very consistent about showing up for them.  We have circled around this for a number of months now.  I think it would actually be helpful for her if I show her the graph that j_menz posted ... that would be right up her alley, I think.  I think she is good at paying attention, there is just some really specific point that consistently trips her up and I need to figure out what the heck it is in that mind of hers (or mine?)!

[lostinidlewonder]

Teach her rhythmic solfege. Many different systems to look into.

[m1469]

OH!  AND, she has a similar confusion with the names of intervals ... a 5th, for example (but same with any name of an interval), she does not understand that it's not a fraction!  Again, I've tried to explain this and show its distance from the other note.  She obviously has a very strong mathematical pull that is actually getting in the way.  There has been some improvement here, but I am not convinced we are over the hump.

[outin]

I have never understood why some people have a problem with the German names (maybe because I have grown up with a similar system). It's just the most logical for me, because there's no need to remember specific names. But with this system you need to understand that the divisions to smaller note values are not always made the same way, they can be made by multiples of 2 or multiples of 3. (I'm not sure I can explain it well in English). This might be difficult to understand for a beginner...

[outin]

OH!  AND, she has a similar confusion with the names of intervals ... a 5th, for example (but same with any name of an interval), she does not understand that it's not a fraction!  Again, I've tried to explain this and show its distance from the other note.  She obviously has a very strong mathematical pull that is actually getting in the way.  There has been some improvement here, but I am not convinced we are over the hump.

I have had the same problem with intervals: My mind don't want to accept that a 4th is NOT a distance of 4 notes (steps). Instead it is one note and then the 4th note counting from the first one. Maybe that's her problem? But of course we don't use 4th and so on but some italian (?) based names...

[m1469]

Instead it is one note and then the 4th note counting from the first one. Maybe that's her problem?

That is what I have shown her, but her mind is trying to take in a bigger concept still, and is stuck on the name.   I think that she thinks that if it's called a fourth, it *must* be a 1/4 of something and I think she tries to relate that to an octave, or to 12 chromatic tones within that, and it just gets all messed up.

[outin]

That is what I have shown her, but her mind is trying to take in a bigger concept still, and is stuck on the name.   I think that she thinks that if it's called a fourth, it *must* be a 1/4 of something and I think she tries to relate that to an octave, or to 12 chromatic tones within that, and it just gets all messed up.

Just an idea...Wonder if it would help as a start to refer to the finger numbers? Play a fourth is to play 1 and 4 and so on...of course one cannot think like this for long, that would give problems later, but maybe it would help her get rid of what she is thinking now?

[nosilla]

Question:  Does this adult student interpret the rhythm of the written music accurately when reading independent of actually hearing the piece?

[florentin]

Can she play the pieces with correct rhythms?
That is what really matters in the end, isn't it?

Have you tried rhythmic dictation?
Clapping and notating measures that contain similar rhythmic divisions might help a bit.

good luck

[nosilla]

Can she play the pieces with correct rhythms?
That is what really matters in the end, isn't it?

What if the student cannot, in the end, play the pieces with correct rhythms?   

[florentin]

What if the student cannot, in the end, play the pieces with correct rhythms?   

I was just trying to make a point. Sometimes older students try to understand the theory behind the music before they can play it. With younger players it can work the other way around most of the time: sort of like learning to talk as a child - you talk first, you learn grammar later.

To answer your question "What if the student cannot, in the end, play the pieces with correct rhythm?" ... I haven't yet met a person who cannot play basic rhythms, or at least clap them back. Maybe the rhythms in the song this particular student is learning are too advanced for now. Perhaps they should get some pieces with quarter and eighth notes first?

Just a thought

[nosilla]

Thank you for your thoughts and your inquiries.   Yes quarters and eighths first...  I'm enjoying the input and inquiries on this forum.  Thanks again...