What is more vital in a performance: speed or error-free playing?

[karenvcruz]

I'm having my recital in November and one of my most challenging pieces is Beethoven's Pathetique.  I have a dilemma.  I listened to versions in youtube of pianists who played the piece.  My favorite is Kempf's rendition.  Unfortunately, as of the moment, I really have difficulty playing the piece as fast as he could. I also listened to some of the members' recordings in pianostreet and I also observed they played quite fast, though with mistakes.

I am just curious - when one performs Pathetique, especially the first movement.  Is it better to play real fast although with some mistakes, or slightly slower but perfect?  What would the audience be more receptive to?

I know I should be able to achieve both - fast and perfect, or ay least, with not so obvious mistakes.  but as of the moment, this appears to be more a dream than a possbility.

[dima_76557]

@ karenvcruz

Only musical expression and beautiful touch/tone can convince an audience. The other factors you mention mean NOTHING without them.

[gvans]

I agree with Dima. Take the slower tempo and concentrate on musicality. I have this debate all the time with chamber musicians I work with -- string players love brisk tempos, it makes bowing easier. I'm forever slowing them down. They have these simple parts, one line only, parts they can often sight-read with fine accuracy, while I'm bogged down by pages of black notes (composers are usually pianists and make the piano scores complex).

It is true, melodic line sometimes benefits from a quicker pace, but detail of harmony and expression are often sacrificed for that. For players lacking absolute mastery at any speed, which is most of us, it is far better to take a more reasonable tempo.

It took Robert Taub nine years to get the Hammerklavier up to Beethoven's tempo. So, that's another thing. It take years and multiple performances to get pieces where you ultimately want them.

The great thing about playing solo is you have total control over tempo. Many forces conspire to make a performer take too fast a tempo. Concert adrenalin is at the top of the list. Often, even when you think you're taking a moderate pace for a given piece, it's too fast.

Remember, speed kills.

[slobone]

I think it's essential to play a piece at a tempo where it's possible to be error-free. Notice I did not say -- where you will always be error-free. An occasional wrong note here or there shouldn't be enough to ruin a performance. But if you've never played it all the way through without making any mistakes, you're playing it too fast.

In fact, I go further than that, I try to never put a finger on a wrong note, even when I'm just learning the piece. If I feel like I'm not going to get through a measure without making a mistake, I slow down, or even play one note at a time. Of course I then go back and work on that measure. That's my preference, but everybody's different.

[classicalnhiphop]

unless ur playing something that is hard and fast for the sake of virtuosity, speed isn't really that important, as long as you're happy with it.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

The slower performance wins hands down.

[ale_ius]

Sorry. Both are critical. You can play it under tempo indication to ensure you are learning it properly and solidifying musical concepts and planning so that they will be easy and automatic at the higher speeds. In a performance both must there or you are not ready to perform it.

The tempos indications (really a ranges that can and does changes over time with general preferences and interpretations) is part of the score and is integreals to doings what composer asks, it is as important as a key signature, accidentals, or rhythm, actual would says in some case for setting character or mood, the tempo is more important, but if you play wrongs notes everywheres you are conveyings chaotic energies, the ear cannot make sense of the language. So play it correctly, perform what is on the pages, the tempo is part of that, you might have to wait longer until ready or you perhaps did not plan the choosing well when deciding on the work (perhaps too much for you at time).

----Alee Marie.

[dima_76557]

@ ale_ius

I'm sure rachmaninoff_forever is talking about communication with the public, not about hitting all the notes right with all musical requirements that are on the page (he knows that already). Without that aspect of communication, any aspects you mentioned will not help you at a tempo that is too fast; it will still be dead playing as we so often hear at competitions. You have to take time to breathe and give it to them. If I had a choice, I would take it a little more slowly, not to sound like a typewriter.

[ale_ius]

@ ale_ius

I'm sure rachmaninoff_forever is talking about communication with the public, not about hitting all the notes right with all musical requirements that are on the page (he knows that already). Without that aspect of communication, any aspects you mentioned will not help you at a tempo that is too fast; it will still be dead playing as we so often hear at competitions. You have to take time to breathe and give it to them. If I had a choice, I would take it a little more slowly, not to sound like a typewriter.

Thanks to you No. I do not means at expense of tone, expression, sensitivities and performer unique (but tasteful and appropriate to styles) expression or ideas, I only mean that I believe it is asking the wrong question, the tempo is part of the music, the notes (correct notes) is part of the music, leaving part out will be like trying to speak without proper pacing or writing without punctuation, or presenting without body language, it is parts of the complete communications, leaving out any single aspect leaves an incomplete performance. I only means that yes when learning or playings, one can only play at the tempo that allows all the musical ideas to come out, but until the note and rythms and tone/touch phrase, and pacing, rubato if anys, and so on are all learned properly, then one must play no faster than the fastest tempo that allows that, but I speak of playing while learning, it is not ready to perform until all of that is incorporated at the called for tempos. I felt post was asking for one or other in performance, I do not believe adequates performance can be without both, not nerves may make wrong note here or there but performer should not put the piece on stage, record, or to audience until it is actuals ready no?

I am sorry if my post confuses, my Englishes is not greats right now.  Alee Marie.

[dima_76557]

performer should not put the piece on stage, record, or to audience until it is actuals ready no?

Ideally not, but it depends much on the goals you have with the repertoire. At a competition it won't be forgiven easily if you do the unexpected, but in a concert, people can be quite forgiving provided you do a great job as a communicator at the instrument.
P.S.: If you take your requirements litterally, then no pianist but a few would ever be ready to give anything to the audience.

[dima_76557]

At karenvcruz

Depending on what type of temperament you have, your perception may also play evil games with you under tension. You're nervous, your brain works like crazy and everything around you seems so "slow". So, you want to give them some heat, and then you hear the recording back and it sounds as if you were on drugs while playing; much too fast, everything in place, but crazy fast. Since I had that experience, I tend to "hold back" a little and it is just right most of the time. You want to avoid such situations (your fingers may not manage if you don't have the reserves), so I wouldn't hunt for speed if I were you. You should aim at the perception of the listeners, not your own. That's why recording in advance is a good idea; you may be surprised at how good "a little slower" sounds.

[karenvcruz]

Thank you, everyone, for your tips and advice.  If there are some things that I learned from reading the posts in this thread, I realize that:

expression, interpretation and how my melody would communicate to the audience the essence of the piece is of great importance

I guess the way I would also see this - my expression will somehow influence or flow with my  tempo.

Likewise, it is also important that eventually, I should get it right - not only the expression, but also the tempo - or how the composer meant it to be played, as well as precision, if possible get my notes right to ensure the music is fluid and smooth.

Well, I still have a long way to go but at any rate, all your comments have given me a better handle in how I should practice it so that eventually -  I get expression, precision and speed right.

Thank you so much everyone.  I indeed found all the posts truly helpful.

[dima_76557]

Likewise, it is also important that eventually, I should get it right - not only the expression, but also the tempo - or how the composer meant it to be played, as well as precision, if possible get my notes right to ensure the music is fluid and smooth.

Here you have to be careful so that your own priniciples about this don't hamper your freedom of artistic choice and future growth as a person. What is "right" in terms of tempo? Actually, we don't know exactly what the composer meant (we only have a frozen image on the page), and he might very well be satisfied with your absolute choice of tempo if you can SUGGEST "quickly and with vigor" to the public. It's clear that when a composer indicates that you should go as fast as a hare, that you should not go like a snail, but some composers changed certain absolute metronome indications in certain pieces more than once. Also: often, greater clarity can SUGGEST greater speed.

[pianoman53]

Here you have to be careful so that your own priniciples about this don't hamper your freedom of artistic choice and future growth as a person. What is "right" in terms of tempo? Actually, we don't know exactly what the composer meant (we only have a frozen image on the page), and he might very well be satisfied with your absolute choice of tempo if you can SUGGEST "quickly and with vigor" to the public. It's clear that when a composer indicates that you should go as fast as a hare, that you should not go like a snail, but some composers changed certain absolute metronome indications in certain pieces more than once. Also: often, greater clarity can SUGGEST greater speed.

There are many stories about composers relation to their own score, which suggests that they were very open-minded. There was a violin player who were going to play Brahms violin concert and asked about the tempo with the answer "When it's sunny, and I'm in a good mood, I tend to play faster. When it's raining, I play slower... sometimes I see a pretty girl in the audience..." Obviously not his exact words, but the point is there.

In the time when composers still were composers and not the jokes of the musical world that most of them are today, they only had a limited amount of ways to notate their music. Crescendo doesn't necessarily  mean just "gradually louder", but might suggest a slight acceleration. There is also no answer on how gradual it should be.

The idea of tempo is also very subjective. There is a very big difference between a slow allegro and a fast allegro, and it's not always notated. Sometimes it is notated, but it's still very flexible.


To answer the ot: Tempo is a rather crucial matter, but not in the sense that one tempo is better than any other. Richter plays Schubert sonatas in half tempo, but makes it perfectly possible. As long as the mistakes doesn't erase the main picture of the piece, no one (of importance) will care about it.

[karenvcruz]

To be honest, I sometimes wonder if Beethoven were alive, how would he have played it?  Unlike Grieg whose performance of the Wedding was recorded and therefore I noted that he played it in roughly two minutes, other pianists in fact played it in around 3 to 4 minutes. 

I decided to spend the day listening and viewing youtube performances of different concert pianists play different pieces.  I heard a version of the first movement of Moonlight Sonata played by Glenn Gould which was unusually faster than how I heard other pianists like Cliburn play it in the past, and I was surprised that no one was critical.  On the other hand, I also listened to Prelude from Suite bergamasque played by Claude Arrau and he was slower than Aldo Ciccolini (did I get his name right?) and it also sounded just as wonderful.  I guess I do now see the wisdom of how one  makes a piece truly an inspiring melody and an artful masterpiece as compared to others who played it as if they were joining the music olympics.

Two weeks ago, I attended a master class held by one of Malaysia's foremost pianists, Claudia Yang.  She handled 5 students and I found her comment interesting.  One played a Prokokiev piece and she was playing some sections too fast.  She said that what was more important is that we hear the notes distinctly and clear, not as if they were a blur because we were playing too fast, and she commented that "quite a lot of musicians today are more after playing for speed rather than for clarity and from the heart, or from expression.". Then, there was a girl who played Lizst Hungarian Rhapsody No. 11 , and although the girl actually had very good technique, Yang emphasized the importance of letting the audience feel the "ambiance and atmosphere" which Lizst wanted to depict in the notes which was festive, and dancing, not like a march. 

I also realize that it would really help to also do research, at least find out what the composer was going through when they wrote the music.  Thank God for the internet and abundance of documentaries!

[dima_76557]

To be honest, I sometimes wonder if Beethoven were alive, how would he have played it?  Unlike Grieg whose performance of the Wedding was recorded and therefore I noted that he played it in roughly two minutes, other pianists in fact played it in around 3 to 4 minutes.  

I heard Grieg's piano roll, but it sounds like a falsification to me of what Grieg really did (with a piano roll you could do that without changing the pitch). I can't imagine any composer swallowing stuff he wants to express to the world.