Baroque's "Spider-like" Fingering

[qpalqpal]

I'm exploring Rosalyn Tureck's "An Introduction to the Performance of Bach." I started with the first exercise, the Applicatio in C. [Check out page 12-13 of the attachment] This piece shows what the Baroque keyboard player would've done with fingering; its one of the few works where Bach supplied fingering. When I tried to play I was completely confused because the fingering felt so awkward if played horizontly on the keyboard. Essentially, the first two bars contain a C major scale but it is played with the middle and ring finger. I realized that if I turned my wrist so that my fingers climbed the keyboard, it made sense.

Tureck goes on to explain that the piece should be played in phrases composed of small, two-note phrases. If you take a look at the score from Tureck's book, the realized version of the Applicatio (edited by Tureck) has those phrases like she describes.

If this is how Bach fingers this work, would more of his pieces have a lot less orthodox fingering than we are used to? Why did they avoid the use of the thumb? And ultimately, for other works of Bach, should we finger it in this way? If so, how? What are some general principals? If not, why not?

Thanks,
Esteban

[j_menz]

And ultimately, for other works of Bach, should we finger it in this way? If so, how? What are some general principals? If not, why not?

Thanks,
Esteban

Not, IMO. I don't let composers dictate fingering anywhere else. I use what works for me. I see no reason to make an exception here.

[qpalqpal]

Not, IMO. I don't let composers dictate fingering anywhere else. I use what works for me. I see no reason to make an exception here.

That being said, wouldn't changing the fingering stress different notes more?

[j_menz]

That being said, wouldn't changing the fingering stress different notes more?

It shouldn't, but if it does you should use the fingering that stresses the notes you want stressed musically. It would be rash to assume that the fingering/stress relationship you find was also found (and so implied)  by the composer (particularly given the differences in instrument).

[iansinclair]

Keep in mind that Bach's fingering was intended (in almost all cases) for harpsichord or organ -- neither of which have any dynamics in the keyboard.  It's either on or off.  The "climb the keyboard" technique for an ascending scale (right hand) or descending (left hand) is still used, believe it or not, by organists rather commonly -- I learned it that way, and still do it.  There are a number of other more minor "odd" (from the piano point of view) fingerings which are actually quite reasonable on an organ or harpsichords (what might be described as the thumb behaving like an inchworm up and down the keyboard, for instance!).

Stress on different notes is achieved quite differently on a harpsichord or organ than on a piano.  It's much more a matter of subtle differences in legato (or slight detache) than volume, and sometimes a slightly delayed or advanced attack.

[lucianeldred]

I agree with j_menz. I've wondered in the past if it was worth it to try and learn Baroque fingering techniques, but the way I see it now I don't think there's any significant point. In the end it's about the musicality. You should choose whatever fingering best facilitates your ideas about interpretation.

[iansinclair]

I agree with j_menz. I've wondered in the past if it was worth it to try and learn Baroque fingering techniques, but the way I see it now I don't think there's any significant point. In the end it's about the musicality. You should choose whatever fingering best facilitates your ideas about interpretation.

Quite true -- for a piano.  However, if you plan to do any seriously significant amount of organ playing, whether baroque or otherwise, it is well worth the effort to learn the fingerings and other techniques involved.  In some ways about the only thing they have in common is that they both have keyboards; at least an organ has the same spacing as a piano (harpsichords don't).

[lucianeldred]

Coincidentally I got to witness what you're talking about from the bench side of a big pipe organ yesterday. A professor of mine who's an organist played a Bach Prelude and Fugue, had a smile on my face ear to ear the whole time. I always knew there was a big difference in how the organ is played from the piano, but never quite grasped the concept of how drastic that difference is until yesterday.

[lojay]

@qpalqpal: Are you still using this book?

I just got around to starting this, and I really have to thank you for introducing this book to me.

I don't think any of the previous replies properly addressed your questions, so I'll contribute.  I disagree with all the other repliers; I think these "Baroque fingering techniques" that Tureck suggests are absolutely necessary if you want clarity in your playing.

If you haven't sorted this out yourself yet, you should thoroughly read the starting text if you haven't.   If you already have, I strongly encourage you to re-read it -- all your questions will be answered.  I will answer your questions, but if you haven't already you should sort this out yourself first and then check my responses to see if we're in agreement.

If this is how Bach fingers this work, would more of his pieces have a lot less orthodox fingering than we are used to?

He fingers this work this way because it's an "...exercise for fingering which he wrote for his young son" (page 5).  Remember, the goal is to play contrapuntal music.  This kind of fingering is essential for legato playing and proper phrasing when you play multiple voices in one hand.

What kind of orthodox fingering are we used to?  I don't cross 3-4-5 on white keys, but I do it all the time in Chopin between black and white keys.  My point is, everyone is different, so we shouldn't make assumptions.

Why did they avoid the use of the thumb?

By they, you are talking about keyboard players in Bach's time, correct?  I don't know much about Baroque music nor their traditions so my following response is just me talking about of my ass based on my superficial understanding of Baroque music.

I think this mainly had to do with older philosophies of keyboard playing.  Even today when information is easily available, you have teachers teaching antiquated ideas such as playing the piano with fingers only (I actually met a teacher that advocated this).  

I'm assuming that during the late Baroque period (Bach's time) keyboards were constantly getting altered and the music being written for keyboards were becoming increasingly more complex.  While older techniques may not be ideal for the new instruments, you still have teachers teaching their old ways.


It's important to note a few things though:

First, Bach particularly did not avoid the use of the thumb (in fact Tureck particularly points out fingering indicating overlapping of the 2nd finger and the thumb in the left hand).  Also, a lot of Bach's music would be straight up impossible to play without the use of the thumb.

Second, Tureck's book seems to imply that baroque tradition avoided the passing of thumb under the 2nd/3rd/4th finger and not the use of it.  

So in your question did you mean the passing of the thumb?

And ultimately, for other works of Bach, should we finger it in this way? If so, how? What are some general principals? If not, why not?

For this exercise and other contrapuntal works, it's essential you finger this way.  This doesn't only apply to Bach.  I've read through several Beethoven movements that incorporates a fugue where this technique would make it possible to realize the phrasing in legato as written without drowning the passage in pedal.  When you get to a tough 5 voice fugue, this technique you've developed to pass 3-4-5 will be crucial for clear playing.  I mean you could pedal it and not play legato, but it's going to sound muddled without this technique.

I think you should only finger this way when you need to (e.g. two simultaneous voices in the right hand where the thumb is playing a voice and 3-4-5 need to play another).  It's important that you don't start crossing 3-4 for no reason.

[j_menz]

I think you should only finger this way when you need to (two simultaneous voices in the right hand where the thumb is playing a voice and 3-4-5 need to play another).  It's important that you don't start crossing 3-4 for no reason.

What's 2 doing?

Fingering in contrapuntal works has it's own idiosyncrasies, and the paragraphs Tureck devotes to it are well worth reading. I wouldn't take Bach's fingering as gospel for a modern piano performance, though. It makes more sense if you consider how the ornaments fit, though I don't 100% agree with Tureck's interpretation of how these are implied to be fingered.

The earlier Baroque tradition was compete avoidance of the thumb. Bach (and one would guess some of his contemporaries and predecessors) were not so inflexible. In part, this was because of the greater manual complexity of their works. One can't really play a five part fugue without sneaking the thumb in from time to time, and that is as true of Pachelbel and Handel as it is of Bach.

For Mozart, Beethoven and subsequent writers of fugues, the "no thumb" rule had completely disappeared and should not even be considered as part of an "authentic" performance style. Some of the other oddities of fingering (changing fingers on held notes and odd crossings, for example) are still required.

I'm also not convinced Tureck has fully appreciated the organ fingering principles that iansinclair has mentioned above. Her deduced phrasing appears to imply not so much a 3 over 4 as a hop of the hand, though I would be interested in what Ian has to say on this point. Being able to make such a hop (if that is what is intended) sound legato sans pedale is indeed a useful skill.

[lojay]

What's 2 doing?

The 2nd finger is just chilling.

I was giving a random example.

I'm also not convinced Tureck has fully appreciated the organ fingering principles that iansinclair has mentioned above. Her deduced phrasing appears to imply not so much a 3 over 4 as a hop of the hand, though I would be interested in what Ian has to say on this point. Being able to make such a hop (if that is what is intended) sound legato sans pedale is indeed a useful skill.

I think it would be a mistake to just look at the exercises without reading the text that precedes the exercises.

On page 5 she advocates practicing the overlapping and underlapping fingerings.  She also says, "In simple pieces where each hand plays one voice, there is little or no problem and therefore in Book I the need for overlapping fingering is slight.  But the student should continue to practise the first exercise regularly in order to meet later problems (see Books II and III)."

Also, if you read page 10 in Book II, she specifically mentions overlapping, underlapping, and silently swapping fingers on a note as means to "achieve unbroken lines in legato".

[j_menz]

I think it would be a mistake to just look at the exercises without reading the text that precedes the exercises.

And one I did not make.

Re-read, if you will, the description given by Ian above about how this sort of fingering (3434 scale) is used on the organ. It is quite different, if I understand it correctly, to what Tureck implies at this point. I merely note that she may not have the full picture here.

I'm not suggesting that the fingering challenges you quote aren't real in polyphonic music, and should be practiced if one is to play them comfortably just that at this particular point (the 3434 scale) she may not be quite getting what Bach was on about.

[lojay]

@j_menz:

Huh?

Let's recap for my clarity.

You state that you don't let composers dictate your fingering.  OP responds asking whether changing fingers would stress different notes.  You state that mainly due to the differences in instruments, assuming a finger/stress relationship is rash.

Iansinclair responds about how fingering for organ/harpsichord doesn't relate to stress and that stress is created by with timing/duration or notes:

Keep in mind that Bach's fingering was intended (in almost all cases) for harpsichord or organ -- neither of which have any dynamics in the keyboard.  It's either on or off.  The "climb the keyboard" technique for an ascending scale (right hand) or descending (left hand) is still used, believe it or not, by organists rather commonly -- I learned it that way, and still do it.  There are a number of other more minor "odd" (from the piano point of view) fingerings which are actually quite reasonable on an organ or harpsichords (what might be described as the thumb behaving like an inchworm up and down the keyboard, for instance!).

Stress on different notes is achieved quite differently on a harpsichord or organ than on a piano.  It's much more a matter of subtle differences in legato (or slight detache) than volume, and sometimes a slightly delayed or advanced attack.

His later post agrees with another poster commenting that there is no point in learning these baroque fingering techniques (again agreeing with you):

Quite true -- for a piano.  However, if you plan to do any seriously significant amount of organ playing, whether baroque or otherwise, it is well worth the effort to learn the fingerings and other techniques involved.  In some ways about the only thing they have in common is that they both have keyboards; at least an organ has the same spacing as a piano (harpsichords don't).

Now, you're post:

Re-read, if you will, the description given by Ian above about how this sort of fingering (3434 scale) is used on the organ. It is quite different, if I understand it correctly, to what Tureck implies at this point. I merely note that she may not have the full picture here.

I'm not suggesting that the fingering challenges you quote aren't real in polyphonic music, and should be practiced if one is to play them comfortably just that at this particular point (the 3434 scale) she may not be quite getting what Bach was on about.

I must be retarded...I don't see a description of how the 3-4 overlapping is used on the organ in Ian's post.  Can you point me to this?

It's my understanding that during the baroque period, the point of the 3-4 overlapping was used to achieve legato.

On page 5, Tureck isn't implying anything.  She explicitly mentions overlapping (crossing longer fingers over shorter ones) and underlapping (crossing shorter fingers under longer ones) as means for legato.

Perhaps you're getting confused by Tureck's phrase marks? The phrasing that connects each 3-4 indicate inner phrasing and as mentioned on page 5: "...the performer should not break the shapes up into little pieces by making obvious gaps between them. The smaller shapes should be played with awareness; they build up into larger shapes to form the entire phrase."  In the context of this piece, you clearly want to play the right hand figure in the first two measures connected, since "the long phrase shape of the piece is felt in two-bar phrases".  Note that she also states that "to avoid visual confusion, the two-bar phrase line has not been placed in the score".

Since you've already read all the above and don't seem to be in agreement, here's a recording of Tureck playing the piece in question:
[ Invalid YouTube link ]

On another note, once the third measure starts, I sound like a kid bashing the piano compared to her.

[lojay]

@OP: This video should better answer you questions.

[qpalqpal]

I'm not going to write to much, though I have much to say. I'll just say that having reread the beginning on fingering (and yes, I have read it, because the writing is perhaps the most important part) I think Tureck's stressing the fact that to play legato, you need to think outside the box. Why? Because to play Baroque music on the piano without pedal but with perfect legato requires a certain skill stressed in the Applicatio (a very endearing piece, btw, as with so much of Bach  ).

That piece is just to get your feet wet and know that there are ways of doing things senza pedale/ohne pedal. This thing of silently moving fingers I do in so many pieces, especially Bach

@lojay I am currently working hard on an Invention 7 by Bach, so I am not looking at the book unfortunately. I will, however, look at it again for sure, because it's saved on my PC. I want to print it out, but that seems like too much paper. I'll probably do it at school. 

Tell me what you learn when you finish the 1st book. It is certainly a wealth of knowledge.

Good luck,

Esteban Enrique

[j_menz]

@OP: This video should better answer you questions.

It also answers mine. Much clearer than her text on this point. I retract my previous interpretation.

Still, I wouldn't do the 3434.  I do agree with most of her other fingering though, more or less.

[lojay]

@j_menz:  Personally I would avoid overlapping and underlapping of 3-4-5 on white keys unless I absolutely had to do it.  I'm actually incorporating scales with 3-4, 4-5, 3-4-5 into my practice.  This practice is extremely useful for legato octaves.

Tell me what you learn when you finish the 1st book. It is certainly a wealth of knowledge.

From the first study, the most important thing I've learned is that I have a lot less finger independence than I thought I had.  On passages awkward for me, I have a tendency to finger and pedal pieces with a priority on making it easier to play instead of fingering and pedal to prioritize the musical structure.  Basically, I would figure out a solution so I can get my fingers in place and then fit the music into my technical mold (about 85% of the time this works out perfectly and about 99% of the time this works relatively well).

I mean I was taught this way in high school.  I used to think that this teacher was the "best" teacher I had because he got me to play passages relatively well in a very short amount of time if I listened to him.  Unfortunately, now I realize he was teaching shortcuts and tricks to get around or avoid the technical obstacles so I can learn the piece as quickly as possible.  Basically he was teaching me how to learn pieces with my strengths, which now I realize isn't the best way to learn.  I understand why he took this approach because he had to regularly learn a load of difficult material quickly (he was a Juilliard undergraduate piano major and I recall him having to learn big pieces such as the first movement of Rachmaninoff's 2nd Sonata in a week).

Anyway, before I posted I finished up Books I and II in pretty much one sitting since the bulk of the pieces were easily sight readable.  I did spend a bit of time polishing the Fantasia and the P&F in Book II though.  For Book I, the hardest part to polish in Book I was the first study and that's only because I followed Bach's and Tureck's fingerings.  This is the only study in Book I I haven't gotten 100% yet (I need to work on my left hand 1-2 trill).

Turecks comments particularly on phrasing and pedaling explain concepts that I have applied intuitively and concepts that a few of my teachers have tried to explain (albeit really poorly) with extreme clarity.  Don't skip the Harpsichord, Clavichord, and Piano and the Attitude sections even though they may seem useless.

I strongly suggest sticking with Bach's and Turecks fingering suggestions at least for the first study and really drill it.  With her fingerings and little pedal, it's actually quite difficult.

[qpalqpal]

I am planning either to print one of the books or buy a used edition. Which do you think is most importnat?

[lojay]

I'm not going to scan my printouts, but I've completely marked up the text in my printouts (I like to summarize, underlines, circle, etc.).

Do you have a tablet that you can practice off of?  If so, I would actually suggest that you print out the text that precedes the studies.  For the studies/pieces that are more involved, I like to mark up the score for clarity, so I would also print those.  I would only print out the pieces you have to write on the scores for (it depends on the person!).

[qpalqpal]

OOH! Can you scan one page of one piece with the most observations PLEASE! I have never seen these sort of annotated sheets. Alas, my music aficionado friends are few, so I would like to see an example!

If not, thanks for contributing anyways,

Esteban

[lojay]

It's just underlined, circled, arrowed, and question marked (in my own notation).  There is also a summary to the side.

I'll have to rummage through a paper bin, so I'll do this for you later.  I would prefer to message it to you though.

I'm going to remove the file after a few days, if I remember.  I have to warn you that the process of doing this is more important.  I tried looking for my actual summary (I did a separate 3 page write up) but I can't find it, I think I put it in a binder, not sure.  If I stumble upon it and remember to post it, I will.

[minona]

Why is it encouraged to hold the wrists higher up in organ playing? Is it something to do with finger substitution for sustain purposes? I can see how swapping the third finger with the fourth is easier/ only possible by dangling the fingers loosely.

[awesom_o]

The keys work differently from the ones on the piano.
I'm told (I'm no organist-that is one of the next steps for me;) )
that with organ you have to 'pop the keys down' individually, so to speak.

Hopefully someone who knows their way around an organ can chime in hear.

This is some pretty spidery-stuff here, fingering-wise, in one of my newer compositions.

https://vimeo.com/74077435

[minona]

Thanks, I had in my mind something like this, albeit for harpsichord:

You can see Leonardt making several finger substitutions which look rather awkward and would seem to require a higher wrist (for people without his very long fingers) during those moments.

[awesom_o]

I don't know... his wrists look pretty low the whole time to me....

[timothy42b]

The keys work differently from the ones on the piano.
I'm told (I'm no organist-that is one of the next steps for me;) )
that with organ you have to 'pop the keys down' individually, so to speak.


https://vimeo.com/74077435

With organ you have no pedal.  Well, you do, but it doesn't sustain the note, it plays a note.  <g> And a note dies right away when you lift a key, it doesn't decay like a piano string does. 

So you need to do finger legato.  The first time you play organ it comes out pretty staccato until you figure this out.  And sometimes you need to make fingering choices because of this.

With tracker actions the organ keys get stiffer with more stops, so that changes your style a bit too.

[awesom_o]

I know the pedals play notes and it's all finger-legato stuff up on the manuals

That doesn't scare me too much considering how much finger-legato I use in my piano-playing.

I'd like to know more about how you change the partials while keeping a piece going, and what partials to know which to choose.

Thanks!

[iansinclair]

I know the pedals play notes and it's all finger-legato stuff up on the manuals

That doesn't scare me too much considering how much finger-legato I use in my piano-playing.

I'd like to know more about how you change the partials while keeping a piece going, and what partials to know which to choose.

Thanks!

Getting the pedals legato is even more interesting than getting the fingers legato... but I can assure you that it is perfectly possible to play legato chromatic scales, jumps, arpeggios, whatever with the pedals.  Just takes practise (lots of it!).

I hadn't thought about it, but I do tend to hold my wrists rather high.  And I do use some organ fingerings on the piano -- no surprise, since organ was my instrument, not piano, until I retired.

The variation in key force with a modern tracker with different stops shouldn't be all that great, although it may be there (depends on the instrument).  Either coupling in another manual or coupling up or down an octave will change the key force.  It is absolutely essential -- particularly with a tracker -- that one press the key down firmly and quickly; it must be either up or down, and this can take genuine strength on some instruments.  With a tracker, anything in between is likely to result in somewhat odd noises (charitably put)!  With electric or electro-pneumatic actions this isn't a problem at all, and key forces may be remarkably light, even for a very large instrument.

And Gustav Leonhardt was surely one of my real heroes!

I'm not quite sure what you mean about changing partials.  Do you mean the choice of different stops -- what an organist would refer to as registration?  Choice of registration is one of the things which one really must learn, if one is to play the organ at all well.  It depends on the instrument, of course -- the small organ at the church which I currently attend has only two tone colours (principal (diapason) and flute) at a variety of pitches; very large organs may have a dozen or more, with variations on each, as well as differences in inherent volume and tone quality within the general group of tone colour.  Then you also have the speaking pitch of the group of pipes (called a rank).  They may speak at the same pitch as a piano (referred to as 8 foot), or as much as three octaves lower (16, 32, and 64 feet)(the length number is the actual length, in feet, of the longest diapason pipe in the rank; flutes are only half as long, and reeds may be much shorter) or as much as three octaves higher (4, 2 and 1).  Then there are mutations, which speak a fifth or third higher (or, very very rarely, lower) than the piano -- the usual ones are 2 2/3 and 1 1/3, but there are others.  Then you have mixtures, in which two or more pitches speak at once.  The choice is mind-boggling!  Judging which combination of stops to use where is very much part of the art of organ playing!

And composers are rather vague on the subject, for the simple reason that each organ is different and what may work splendidly on one may be either impossible or a complete catastrophe on another.

As to changing stops in mid stream, there are two fundamental approaches -- one is to have one sound quality set up on one manual, and another on another manual (or the pedal).  This enables very fluid changes by switching manuals as you go along, and also enables one to play a solo line on one manual with an accompaniment on another.  Sometimes a certain amount of contortion is required, as it is sometimes necessary to use two manuals simultaneously with one hand, but fortunately that is rare!  The second is to actually change the stops drawn on a particular manual.  Again, there are two ways to do this -- if it is just one or two stops which need to be drawn or retired, a lightning jab with one hand or the other will suffice; no more difficult than a huge jump on a piano.  However, if it is a major change, you hope that your instrument has a combination action, with which you can preset certain groups of stops to correspond with manual buttons or toe studs -- then all you have to do is hit the right button at the right moment, and presto chango.  Nothing to it.

(Some organs have a "crescendo" pedal, which automatically draws additional stops as you depress it -- never found on trackers -- and some organs also have a "sforzando" button or stud, which draws pretty much everything including the kitchen sink when you hit it; to be used with extreme caution)

There is a third approach: get your page turner to do it.  This is risky, unless your page turner is a real musician...

[awesom_o]

Thanks! Most enlightening! I think I was talking about mutations and mixtures.

Hopefully I will get to try an organ before long. Do you play the harpsichord as well?

[minona]

The keys work differently from the ones on the piano.
I'm told (I'm no organist-that is one of the next steps for me;) )
that with organ you have to 'pop the keys down' individually, so to speak.

Hopefully someone who knows their way around an organ can chime in hear.

This is some pretty spidery-stuff here, fingering-wise, in one of my newer compositions.

https://vimeo.com/74077435

Aaahhh, now I get it... because I didn't compliment your playing in the video. My computer connection is slow, I couldn't play the video Carlisle Beresford.

[awesom_o]

You saw it now?

[timothy42b]

.

Hopefully I will get to try an organ before long. Do you play the harpsichord as well?

Ah, actually I play the harpsichord as badly. 

[awesom_o]

Ah, actually I play the harpsichord as badly. 

I'm sorry to hear that! There is no reason to play badly. I hate bad playing. Don't you?

[timothy42b]

I'm sorry to hear that! There is no reason to play badly. I hate bad playing. Don't you?

While I hate bad playing, I love good humor.

No professional could pass up a straight feed like "do you that as well"  without the instant response "no I do that as badly." 

[awesom_o]

It was indeed a well-placed pun.

I long to have a harpsichord one day. Do you have one?

[hardy_practice]

Get a clavichord, they are more expressive.

[awesom_o]

Get a clavichord, they are more expressive.

I desperately want a clavichord as well as a harpsichord.

I don't really see any instruments as being expressive. They are, after all, quite silent on their own, the poor things.

[hardy_practice]

Ah, but it does vibrato!

[awesom_o]

Ah, but it does vibrato!

I've got plenty of vibrato on the cello!

Seriously though-a clavichord would be amazing for some of my favourite repertoire.... like Couperin.

[iansinclair]

I had access to a clavichord -- a really nice one -- when I was in college, which was ages and ages ago now.  It was very interesting to play -- particularly for, as noted, things like Couperin.  Amazing what one can do with them.  Vibrato, a surprising amount of volume control, pitch bending.

But they don't -- or at least that one didn't -- have much power overall, so it's not really surprising that they didn't really go much of anywhere.  But in some ways they seem to me more like a piano than either a harpsichord or an organ!

[awesom_o]

I always understood that Clavichord was a beautiful instrument that can only be enjoyed by an audience of 1 or 2 in a small room. Wasn't it essentially Bach's favourite practice instrument?

[hardy_practice]

The clavichord never took off in France where it was known as a 'box of flies'.  In Germany it became a cult.  Bach's students worked and practiced in study carrels.  Each would have had his own clavichord.

[awesom_o]

In Germany it became a cult.  Bach's students worked and practiced in study carrels.  Each would have had his own clavichord.

Studying with Bach would have been awesome.

So you can bend the intonation up but not down?

My parents live in Edinburgh... and I have tried to visit the early keyboard instrument museum there TWICE only to find it was closed each time!

I love to rock out with the March of the Scythes on my Steinway but it just... doesn't sound right

[hardy_practice]

So you can bend the intonation up but not down?

Just like pulling notes on an electric guitar.  Oscar Peterson's tuner (still alive) says he had to de-tune it for him - his touch was so heavy.