About the hand shape and how to correct it

[willbak]

Hello

I've just recorded myself with a camera and i've put the video on youtube
It seems that the shape of my hand is wrong, like it's curved the wrong way, beetween the palm and the fingers.
How can I correct that ? I initially had piano lessons but then i stopped. I've been playing for the last 2-3 years without a teacher, so it's hard to check on my position and all.

See in the video (hope you like Zelda music by the way):

Edit:Re-encoded and re-uploaded video

[dima_76557]

@ willbak

Please check what's wrong with your clip. It doesn't seem to work. The rest of YouTube clips work for me, except for your one.

[willbak]

Sorry there is a problem with Youtube and the .mts file format maybe

[mikeowski]

https://youtu.be/0ZCjGqiLhTE?t=6m37s

[willbak]

Well that is one tip that may be useful, but it is not goint to solve everything.
Maybe I should buy a book about piano techniques and how to use properly my hands
https://www.amazon.com/The-Craft-Piano-Playing-Technique/dp/0810877139
I don't know if it is a good idea.
Just so you know, I can't have lessons anymore, at least for the 2 years to come, because of my studies (not music-related )

[lojay]

@OP:  I've briefly used Mastering Piano Technique by Seymour Fink and just superficially incorporated one of his earlier sets of exercises intermittently over a few months and got really good really results.

If I remember correctly, his DVD is actually a regiment that you progress through over a few months.

https://youtu.be/0ZCjGqiLhTE?t=6m37s

Awesome resource!  I wanted to do a Chopin etude and having this video as a resource makes my decision easy.

But holy sh*t...Paul Barton makes those thirds look so easy!

I'm probably going to regret picking this etude .

[nyiregyhazi]

Well that is one tip that may be useful, but it is not goint to solve everything.
Maybe I should buy a book about piano techniques and how to use properly my hands
https://www.amazon.com/The-Craft-Piano-Playing-Technique/dp/0810877139
I don't know if it is a good idea.
Just so you know, I can't have lessons anymore, at least for the 2 years to come, because of my studies (not music-related )

You have a very serious case of what he calls "inversion". I'd definitely read his works- especially "all thumbs".

The simplest trick is simply to learn to lengthen out your thumbs so they point straight down. We can't see them on the film, but yours will almost certainly be aiming up- which is why your hand inverts so much. Get the thumb lengthening out and pointing down and your hand simply couldn't get into the shape there if you tried. Try these exercises to get the preliminary feel for the association between thumb and fingers:

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/achieving-effortless-balance-within.html

I didn't fully explain the issue in the post, but simply created a situation in which the thumb and fingers will be working together to form a suitably balanced hand position. You then just need to learn to keep the thumb pointing down, when playing with the other fingers.

PS. Alan Fraser talks primarily about grasping, especially in his earlier books- but what I found was that it's actually the lengthening out of the thumb and finger that is done before a grasp that matters the most. I had more success with than when my attention was on the grasp itself, although both options are worth exploring.

[willbak]

Thank you for your answer. However i don't think i have my thumbs pointing upward as you say.
I am not sure, it is difficult to watch myself playing.

Edit : I've read your post, it's great. I am not sure it can help the "inversion" problem though.

[lojay]

Why not record another angle or two? (I'd suggest one showing the thumb from the opposite side and a top down if possible)

It's usually very hard for people to self diagnose their tension problems.

[willbak]

@nyiregyhazi

I think i have my thumbs aiming toward the keys. Do you consider that is upward ?

@lojay

Unfortunately i have nothing to hold my camera and film from the top, but i can try to film from the other side.

[nyiregyhazi]

Thank you for your answer. However i don't think i have my thumbs pointing upward as you say.
I am not sure, it is difficult to watch myself playing.

Edit : I've read your post, it's great. I am not sure it can help the "inversion" problem though.

it's not directly about staying out of it in normal playing, but the more time you spend in that position, the less you'll want to invert again. My next post will be about balancing on fingers safely but without touching the thumb to them. As a preview, touch the thumb straight down against the wood below the keys (just touch- you don't need to try to anchor against it) and then play to feel the security in the fingers. Then point the thumb as a high as you can, to compare the difference in efficiency and effort. Your thumbs are definitely more up than down, or physical anatomy would make it impossible to invert like that. You need to learn to point it down, in order to literally eradicate any possibility of slipping into that. Once you've practised touching it against fingers and beneath the keys, you need to retain a small action of lengthening out down in thin air as normal, in order to retain the benefits.

[nyiregyhazi]

@nyiregyhazi

I think i have my thumbs aiming toward the keys. Do you consider that is upward ?

@lojay

Unfortunately i have nothing to hold my camera and film from the top, but i can try to film from the other side.

forward can be fine and I've even recommend a conception that involves lengthening out but it's the difference between forwards and a touch down and forward and a touch up that matters. If you have opened space between thumb and 2nd and got the thumb under, you'll be secure. If you have have closed it and put the thumb to the side of the 2nd (or even just begun to head in that direction) your whole hand will feel flimsy and unstable unless you bring in significant muscular tensions.

[willbak]

Here, i filmed my right hand.

&feature=youtu.be

&feature=youtu.be

[lojay]

Your thumb and wrist are definitely tense.  I think the Fink DVD will be good for you.

[johnmar78]

Wiibak, I watched your first video and the latest one with no sound. The first 15 sec has showed me that your wrist is too high as supposed to be lower than your 5 knuckles. Another words, your hands should be almost rest on the key surface, especially your where your palm is facing. Occasionally that wrist is allowed to move upward/downward  as so called "end of musical phrase". Anyway, its not a bad idea try to play the same tune as you did with flat hands, slowly just using flat fingers, yes fingers are almost straight-a deliberate practice to strengthening your hands structure. Later on, practice with curved fingers. You will find the combination of 2 gives you a big plus in your playing. So just relax a bit and drop your hands a bit...for the time been. Post as one more video after you have done your changes. I hope this helps.

[nyiregyhazi]

Here, i filmed my right hand.

&feature=youtu.be

&feature=youtu.be

these are very revealing. The inversion is more subtle but it shows definitively that your thumbs are the problem. In the first, you are trying to immobilise the thumb to transmit force. Because it's in an inherent unstable position, that requires huge tensions yet still allows it to give way somewhat. Open the hand and you'll do way better. Better still, start mostly open and try to open the thumb even further still to move the keys. Trying to immobilise is always more effort, whether in a stronger or weaker position.

In the second your thumb keeps lifting. You need to point it down. Practise holding on to the g in a wide open position and play around the other notes. Then practise keeping the thumb faintly lengthening against its key while playing throughout. Any lifting weakens. I had a lesson from a friend on la campanella the other day and rediscovered how harmful even subtle lifting can be. It's sometimes good to practise cooking the thumb and swinging it down through a key, to explore the full range of movement. However, doing this was weakening contact with the 5th finger. I needed to eradicate thumb lifting altogether and keep it aiming down. Since then revisiting the concept in various pieces has been hugely helpful. Even a few mm of lifting the thumb can destroy the quality motion in other fingers.

PS You urgently need more lateral arm movement. You're trying to lock into a static position. The fingers will never move with true freedom unless you follow them to the side with the whole arm.

[willbak]

Thank you for taking the time to post
I don't see exactly the thumb exercices you recommend or the good position.
Could you show me somehow ?

[nyiregyhazi]

Thank you for taking the time to post
I don't see exactly the thumb exercices you recommend or the good position.
Could you show me somehow ?

Just don't lift the thumb so much as a mm up from the keys, when moving other fingers but not playing with the thumb- and sometimes practise holding a thumb key down with it and never letting it go, while playing with other fingers. This trains you to point it down and stop lifting. If you follow the instructions about lengthening thumb and finger from the blog post already linked, that alone provides the good position. The only hard thing is learning to monitor and maintain it in normal playing. Be open between 1 and 2, not squashed shut. Then learn to point the thumb down at all times (so it never lifts up), rather than touch it to the finger, as in the post. Really, that's it. It's not simple to master actually achieving this in practise, but that really is all there is to the premise of what's needed. Watch for it constantly.

This post has exercises for thumb movement, but it doesn't talk about hand position- just the actions.

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/action-and-reaction-in-practise-part-i.html

You need this kind of genuine movement from an open position into an even more open one for the Tchaikovsky- not to be fixing in a bid to keep what is a squashed position.