Hungarian Rhapsody 2 Technique

[vansh]

Not sure if this should be in this forum or the performance forum since it's about how to play this piece, but there's some issues regarding the piece specifically so I thought I'd put it here.

I've been having issues with the right hand tremolos just before the section with the scales. While the left hand plays the melody, the right hand alternates between (D G#) and (E B) with a high E and I have no problem with that. However, once the right hand alternates between (C# A) and (E C#) with a high E, my right hand gets tired very quickly. This is the one part of the piece (so far) where my hands get tired out, and unfortunately it's right before the scales where I need my right hand in its tip top shape. Any ideas as to how I should adjust my playing so that my right hand doesn't get tired so quickly in this passage?

I don't know if hand size has anything to do with it; my natural reach is just one note beyond an octave (I can only hit a 10th if I press the notes in between as well). So the C# to high E is too far for me to naturally reach, so I rotate my wrists (very rapidly) to reach them during this part. I currently use a 12 fingering for the C# A (and 14 for E C#); I've tried using 13 instead, but then it becomes very hard to play the high E because I don't have enough flexibility between my middle finger and my pinkie to do this comfortably (I'd have to contort my wrist quite a bit).

Any help would be appreciated. If it would help, I could put a video online of my right hand playing this part. Thanks!

[dima_76557]

If it would help, I could put a video online of my right hand playing this part.

That's a good idea. There are many members here who claim they can play this piece, so you should get a wealth of useful advice.

[lojay]

what?  Can you easily tremolo in thirds with (4 - 5)?  You're getting tired because you're using (1 - 4) for the (E - C#).

For me the only way to do this is:
(1 - 2) for (C# - A)
(1 - 3) for (E - C#)

[lojay]

Apparently W T F comes out as what.

[j_menz]

Apparently W T F comes out as what.

That, if nothing else, is something we all eventually learn here. 

[vansh]

what?  Can you easily tremolo in thirds with (4 - 5)?  You're getting tired because you're using (1 - 4) for the (E - C#).

For me the only way to do this is:
(1 - 2) for (C# - A)
(1 - 3) for (E - C#)

Thanks! Yeah I've tried doing (1 3) for (C# A) to see if it helped (it didn't), but didn't think to try (1 3) for (E C#) instead. I tried it out tonight, it still sort of feels awkward (probably because I'm not used to it yet) but my hands didn't get tired, or at least until I played it far faster than the speed that my scales will be at anyway (i.e. far faster than where it needs to be). So yeah I'll try (1 3) from here on out and see if the problem goes away on longer practice.

Incidentally yes I can do tremolos in thirds with (4 5), but the hand position is completely different. To do it, my hands naturally move pinkie forward. Of course, in this passage, my hand is thumb forward (due to the low C#) and I couldn't do tremolos in thirds with (4 5) easily once my hand had to be in this position.

I've uploaded a couple of videos. The first is from the top, showing my right hand's reach, and then playing it using (1 2) (1 4) fingering, and then using (1 2) (1 3) fingering. The second video is from the side, using (1 2) (1 4) fingering. The quality is sort of low because it was converted from the original (which is in .mov and over 100 MB). Let me know if there's any problems viewing them though.

Thanks for the help!

Edit: The files do have sound, although my WMP doesn't seem to pick it up; my VLC player can hear it just fine though.

[dima_76557]

I've uploaded a couple of videos.

Thanks. They confirm what I thought was wrong: you are trying to reach where that is not actually necessary. The hand bridge at your pinky knuckle also seems weak to me (it collapses) but if you stop reaching, this may be fixed. Here are my recommendations/suggestions:

1) First practise the root of the melody (the two chords) WITHOUT the echoeing "higher e" (and without reaching for it) and do that in different octaves with whatever fingering that is comfortable. You should be able to do this without the slightest coordination problems and faster than required. Touch the black keys at the edges, not deeper into the piano. This gives you more space in your hand.

2) Then practise the melody 1 octave lower as written, but echo the "higher e" where it is supposed to be (you have to jump one octave). You will see that this can only be accomplished if you let go, and a slight forearm rotation will help you get there and back. Take your time. Don't go too fast right away.

3) Then practise as written. Better already?

[lojay]

@dima_ogorodnikov: Interesting.

@OP: I think your approach is too heavy.  Basically you are not releasing quick enough.  Also, I think you're moving your 2nd and 3rd fingers more than you should be.  Also it seems like you are accenting the E played by the pinky.

I sat down and got this section in a matter of minutes...this is what I did:

1)  Remove the top E and play just the bottom chords.  Do this exercise playing very lightly making sure you release after each chord (you essentially want to do a light unaccented staccato), with proper fingerings, and in tempo.  Also, make sure you are emphasizing the top note (so the A and C#)!  When I practiced this I practiced HT, but I'm sure you could use this effectively only working on the right hand.  This is pretty much the first step that dima suggested.

Basically you are playing:
(C# - A) then (E - C#) then (C# - A) then (E - C#) ... etc.


2)  Dotted Rhythm Practice #1.  Play the bottom chord then the top E and then wait a half a second or so.  Play the next bottom chord then the top E and then wait again. Again, besides the pause after each block

So you play:
(C# - A) then (E) then (WAIT) then (E - C#) then (E) then (WAIT) ... repeat

It's crucial that the (C# - A) then (E) and the (E - C#) then (E) are in tempo.  Like before, make sure that you are bringing out the A and C#, you are playing lightly, and that you are releasing.  If you do not release, you are doing this all wrong.


3) Practice (1) again a few times.


4) Dotted Rhythm Practice #2.  Reverse what you did in the previous step.  Start with the top E then play the bottom chord and then wait.

So you play:
(E) then (C# - A) then (WAIT) then (E) then (E - C#) then (WAIT) ... repeat


5) Practice (1) again a few times.


6) Regrouping Practice.

Play:
(C# - A) then (E) then (E - C#) then (WAIT) then (E - C#) then (E) then (C# - A) then (WAIT) ... repeat

I have to warn you that you must release properly, play in tempo or faster, have the proper emphasis on the right notes, and play lightly.  Also, this whole cycle of practice shouldn't take longer than 2-3 minutes if you're doing all 8 measures.

I think it took me much longer to type this up than to actually learn the section...

[vansh]

@dima_ogorodnikov: Hmm do you mean that I should work on reaching the notes more through wrist/forearm rotation rather than through keeping my hands outstretched? I think that's why my hand bridge collapses -- I'm basically having to stretch out my hand quite a bit to reach the notes. I can see that if I use more rotation instead, then my hand doesn't have to be in the stretched out position as much, but have a more natural curl. Additionally, maybe my hand should be higher (away from keys) when I play the high E, so that the pinky doesn't end up above the knuckles (i.e. hyperextended)?

I'm not sure what you mean about the black keys -- from the video, it seems like the only finger that goes further in on the black key is the 4th finger on the higher C#, but that's due to natural hand placement, i.e. where it naturally ends up when the thumb is playing the E. I do notice that my thumb moves down a lot to reach the white keys, which I guess isn't really necessary (and results in a lot of hand motion when my thumb alternates between the white and black keys).

Hmm if I use more comfortable fingering, I'm guessing (won't be practicing until later tonight) that it may end up being (1 3) for the (C# A) and (1 4) for the (E C#) -- using (1 2) for the (C# A) results in my hand having to yaw to the right because it's actually quite a stretch for me. I guess I'll have to try it out though to see if this is the case.

@lojay: Yeah I agree. When I listen to myself play this passage, the middle note tends to be muddled, and the pinky tends to be too loud -- I end up just hearing the thumb and the pinky fight it out. My understanding though is that it's supposed to be the thumb and the inner fingers that are louder, and the pinky soft, but haven't really worked at the voicing yet -- since I'm still trying to get the right hand position down.

I'm not "purposely" moving the 2nd and 3rd fingers though -- they're moving more just due to my thumb trying to reach the lower notes in between my pinky going for the high E; it's just my natural stretch between my thumb and the inner fingers, and the inner fingers and my pinky, that makes them move around. I'm not sure how I'd move them less.

Just wanted to clarify a bit on the release: Do you mean that I should focus on making the note durations shorter, or that I should focus on "snapping" the hand/fingers more when I play the notes? (Or both.) Right now when I play, I sort of snap the right hand toward the left to play the lower notes, then "relax" back to the right for the high E with the pinky.

[lojay]

My understanding though is that it's supposed to be the thumb and the inner fingers that are louder, and the pinky soft...

I think this is up to interpretation.  I only bring out the inner fingers.  Basically the pinky and thumb are whisper quiet, but still audible. 

...haven't really worked at the voicing yet -- since I'm still trying to get the right hand position down.

For me separating hand position and voicing causes problems.  If I do them separately, I end up with hand positions that enable me to hit the notes very easily, but with fingerings that make it uncomfortable to voice the way I want.  I mean there are some pianists that can pretty much do whatever they want on the piano so this isn't an issue, but for me integrating voicing, dynamics, phrasing, etc. with hand positioning saves a lot of time and gets me the results I want much quicker.

I'm not "purposely" moving the 2nd and 3rd fingers though -- they're moving more just due to my thumb trying to reach the lower notes in between my pinky going for the high E; it's just my natural stretch between my thumb and the inner fingers, and the inner fingers and my pinky, that makes them move around. I'm not sure how I'd move them less.

I think you are lifting your 2nd finger and especially your 3rd finger way too much.  Some pianists lift a lot and can play forever no problem.  I'm not one of them.  I could play the passage we're discussing in tempo if I lifted as much as you or even more than you, but that would probably cause me strain and affect my playing for a few seconds afterwards.  I guess there are a few seconds for recovery as you play the arpeggiated chords before you do the scales...

Just wanted to clarify a bit on the release: Do you mean that I should focus on making the note durations shorter, or that I should focus on "snapping" the hand/fingers more when I play the notes? (Or both.) Right now when I play, I sort of snap the right hand toward the left to play the lower notes, then "relax" back to the right for the high E with the pinky.

For this passage, if you happen to practice slowly, make the note durations short since your goal is to play this extremely quickly (with my practice suggestions since you're already playing in tempo this isn't a problem).

I wouldn't call it a snap.  Basically you should be releasing instantaneously after you press the keys and prepping your fingers for the next note(s) you have to play.  The most important thing is that you're completely relaxed.

I forgot to mention that with the exercises I suggested above, I sort of assumed that you could easily play the passages in tempo if you left out one of the notes of the bottom chord (only play thumb and the pinky or only play the 2nd/3rd fingers and the pinky).



Out of curiosity, have you tried playing from the Friska to the end in tempo?  Also, are you doing a cadenza?

[vansh]

I think this is up to interpretation.  I only bring out the inner fingers.  Basically the pinky and thumb are whisper quiet, but still audible.

Yeah I guess it's up to personal sense. For me, for the RH tremolos, I try to bring out the lower notes, with the high E (or high C# in other passages) very quiet; I like hearing the harmony between the two lower notes, so I try to play them at the same volume, with the middle note perhaps slightly louder (only because it's the higher note of the two) but not by much.

For me separating hand position and voicing causes problems.  If I do them separately, I end up with hand positions that enable me to hit the notes very easily, but with fingerings that make it uncomfortable to voice the way I want.

I guess for me, I tend to learn the notes first and then do the voicing later for a piece such as this one, so that I can get my head out of the sheet music quickly and get a better feel for the flow of the music (to know what voicing I want to do). For the most part I think for a good portion of this piece it doesn't matter very much -- the proper hand positions are fairly intuitive -- but I have trouble with certain passages such as this one due to the stretch that's needed.

I think you are lifting your 2nd finger and especially your 3rd finger way too much.  Some pianists lift a lot and can play forever no problem.  I'm not one of them.  I could play the passage we're discussing in tempo if I lifted as much as you or even more than you, but that would probably cause me strain and affect my playing for a few seconds afterwards.  I guess there are a few seconds for recovery as you play the arpeggiated chords before you do the scales...

Oh for that, well a lot of the lift is actually because of the forearm rotation and not the finger itself -- it's just along for the ride. I could do that for quite some time without getting tired; in fact, it's how I do the tremolos in the other passages to get the reach. Although looking at the video, it looks like I do straighten my index finger unnecessarily; I was probably trying to emphasize the middle note since it kept sounding soft. The main issue I was having was that my hand would get tired doing the (E C#) with the high E, but I think using a (1 3) instead of (1 4) fingering has cleared that up.

Out of curiosity, have you tried playing from the Friska to the end in tempo?  Also, are you doing a cadenza?

Hmm well I'm not sure what you mean by "in tempo"...do you mean at performance speed or at a consistent (slower) speed? I'm still in the process of learning the notes so I don't have it at performance speed yet. However, I can play through the parts that I've learned at a pretty consistent speed. As for what speed it is, I don't know exactly but I know I play through the 3 octave scales in about 1.6 seconds, which means roughly 110 beats per minute. So I can play it at that speed more or less. I'm learning the piece from the end forwards so I actually haven't learned the early sections of the Friska yet, but what I know, I can play to the end at a consistent tempo.

I haven't decided yet on whether or not I'll do a cadenza. There are a few sections that I'm modifying though, and I'm likely revamping the entire section after the scales and before the ending octaves, because I like Horowitz's treatment of it more (mainly, recapping the different melodies). Otherwise, what I'll more likely be doing is modifying some of the passages to suit my liking more; a cadenza will likely wait until after I've learned the whole piece.

Anyway, so after practicing a bit, I've attached what it sounds like now. Unfortunately I was somewhat distracted by trying to look at the camera screen and directly at my right hand so it was somewhat more uneven than without trying to record it (since I hold the camera with my left hand while playing with my right). I think my pinky is staying on the high E more than is necessary, but I'm not sure if that needs to change or not, since it's softer now.

[dima_76557]

Anyway, so after practicing a bit, I've attached what it sounds like now. Unfortunately I was somewhat distracted by trying to look at the camera screen and directly at my right hand so it was somewhat more uneven than without trying to record it (since I hold the camera with my left hand while playing with my right). I think my pinky is staying on the high E more than is necessary, but I'm not sure if that needs to change or not, since it's softer now.

While the behavior of your hand has improved, you are still reaching too much. As long as you think that you need "stretch" here to take the chords as a block, you will tire your hand and spoil the rest of the piece. You may want to see how your left hand would solve such a problem neurologically by using symmetrical inversion:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=49306.msg537028#msg537028

Second, I suspect it's been more than enough for the mechanical training. I think the final solution will come when you start introducing the left hand elements that bring this piece to life. To solve technical problems, you need not only the mechanics of the positions and the right movements, but also the all-encompassing body feel of rhythm. If you can't combine the hands yet, sing the left-hand part to feel how the coordination in the right hand works against it.

P.S.: As for the sound: don't play the piano too much. Liszt imitates a Hungarian gypsy band, and they mostly use violin, guitar, cimbalom (a light percussive instrument) and double bass.

[vansh]

While the behavior of your hand has improved, you are still reaching too much.

Yeah in looking at the video, it seems like my hand is still pretty stretched out. When I jumped octaves (i.e. keeping the high E but playing the other notes one octave lower), I noticed my right hand was more in its natural position in between pressing the notes rather than being splayed out.

Incidentally, when I played it for this video, I wasn't actively thinking to keep my hands stretched out, I was concentrating more on hitting the lower notes with the same volume. It's possible that I'm simply playing this section too fast right now (I likely won't be playing it anywhere near this speed in the end since the following scales section limits my speed) and my hand is reacting to that by staying outstretched, even though I'm not actively thinking to stretch. I guess I'll try it at more of a normal speed. The most important thing though I think is that my hand no longer gets tired/strained playing this section so it's able to go into the scales without burden now.

I tried symmetrical inversion, but my left hand had major issues just trying to play the notes (I tried doing just the left hand as well as both hands simultaneously). I think it's because my left hand is somewhat stiffer or something; my right hand does sort of a snap with the wrist (wrist action where the hand goes down to play a note, then the hand rises up in between notes, sort of like when people play fast octaves) which my left hand isn't really used to. This probably doesn't bode well for when I get to the end prestissimo section but I guess at least I've identified a problem that I'll need to work on later on.

Second, I suspect it's been more than enough for the mechanical training.

Yeah realistically, there are a lot more things that I know I need to work on before I try to perform this piece -- I haven't even finished learning the Friska yet. While playing through the parts that I knew, however, I noticed that this passage in particular was leaving my hand tired, which meant I was doing something seriously wrong. I think that's been mostly cleared up now. At some point, once I get more familiar with the piece, I'll likely go back to each section and revisit how I want to make them more musical; to be honest, right now I haven't made up my mind yet for all the sections how I want them to be played.

P.S.: As for the sound: don't play the piano too much. Liszt imitates a Hungarian gypsy band, and they mostly use violin, guitar, cimbalom (a light percussive instrument) and double bass.

Hmm. What do you mean by this? Is it that I should play with a lighter, more expressive touch rather than pounding through the notes?

[vansh]

So I've been having fun messing around with modifying some parts of the Friska for Hungarian Rhapsody 2. Most of it is pretty mild, an extra note here or there type of stuff. Realistically I won't likely do a cadenza, but instead I'll be modifying some of the sections, such as a Horowitz-like recapitulation of the themes played simultaneously near the end. I've had lots of fun with the left hand jumps lately, because I think the piece (and many pieces in general) give the left hand less to do.

So in the hand crossover section, when it modulates into G#, I thought of adding left hand jumps to them (rather than "just" crossover) -- the left hand is essentially jumping over the right hand back and forth when the right hand is playing the melody in the lower register. Also, once the right hand switches back to octaves, the left hand will go for increasingly longer jumps for the rest of that section, including down to a low C# while playing chords near middle C right before and right after.

I worked it out this week, but am looking for feedback on whether or not something like this would actually sound good, be interesting, add to the technical flavor of the piece, etc., or if it would just detract from the melody or be too hard to play at performance speed, etc. On that latter point, I've tried it at tempo and I can do the large arm movements fast enough to get the hand where it needs to be, so it's just a matter of having enough control to hit the correct notes consistently which will come through practice (an understatement, of course).

Attached is a video showing the left hand jumps. It took me 27 seconds to get through this section in the video; once I spend more time working on it I aim to get it down to the 18-20 second range (which is the "at tempo" that I tried it out a few times to make sure I can physically move fast enough, although hitting plenty of wrong notes). For comparison, a professional pianist goes through this section in around 14 seconds based on various Youtube videos (from Lisitsa at 11 seconds to Paderewski at 16 seconds), but of course, I am not a professional pianist, and I'll be happy if I can get the finale to at least half the speed of what some of them are capable of putting out.

(Note: The video does have sound, although it seems like Windows media player may not play the audio. It works just fine in my VLC though.)

[j_menz]

Realistically I won't likely do a cadenza, but instead I'll be modifying some of the sections, such as a Horowitz-like recapitulation of the themes played simultaneously near the end.

I posted a number of scores for some of the better cadenzas here, if you change your mind.