Staying alert during repetition [Bob project]

[Bob]

If I want to repeat something 100+ times, how can I keep my mind from going numb?  It seems that the sound and the point after my mind doesn't have to control my fingers quite so much, that my mind can really become numbed from lots of repetition.  Is there any way to keep my mind alert while I do lots of repetition?  Or a way to quickly "reset" my mind after being numbed by these repetitions?

[amanfang]

Why do you want to repeat something 100 times??  I would try using variety - variety of staccato, legato, dynamics, varying the rhythm if possible.  Something like that.

[Bob]

variety of articulation... good... Anything else?

Why repeat?  I've seen a few professionals -- I got the impression they practiced A LOT and one thing they did was a lot of repetition.  I'm not sure if it was pure repetition or if they were working on something.  But 100 reps doesn't seem like much for a professional.  1,000 seems more like it, with some variation.

I also want to build strength and endurance.  You can play thirds?  Great, but how many times in a row?  How long? 

For some of this, there are pieces I want to play that I just don't have the technique for.  I want to slowly build my technique.  One way is repetition.

[Spatula]

Yes, they did a lot of repetition, but not all at one go.  Check out the 7/20 rule: 7 repeats and rest a little while (like a couple seconds to a minute if you must)...repeat that for 20 minutes.

I do the 10/30...I am a slower learner, so I find a greater number of repetions for me is necessary.

Have you ever worked out?  You don't do all repetitions into one single set do you?  That's like bench pressing 100 times in one set.  Your body needs a small rest after each set.  So its much more easier and efficient to break it up into say 20 reps per set for 5 sets. 

The brain also needs some time to rest for a short period as well. 

[Spatula]

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5177.0.html

Check it out because Bernhard goes into some detail about the 7/20 rule.

[m]

Why repeat?  I've seen a few professionals -- I got the impression they practiced A LOT and one thing they did was a lot of repetition.  I'm not sure if it was pure repetition or if they were working on something.  But 100 reps doesn't seem like much for a professional.  1,000 seems more like it, with some variation.

Playing piano is a very intense mental process. If you repeat just for sake of repetition, with all mistakes and without listening to what you are doing, it makes more harm than good, IMO, as you learn how to play not right.

There are three kinds of pianists. First, who play what they hear; second, who hear what they play; and third, who play, but don't hear. Mechanical repetition is a very good way to get into third category, and that's not what we want.

First comes image. Try to take a little phrase, realize its all technical challenges, think about exactly how you want it sound and what kind of emotion you want to put into it. Then try to play it. Be very critical to yourself. Every time ask yourself question: "Is it exactly what I want? is melody well shaped? is it even? is accompaniment "below" the melody? does bass give a good support for the melody? is the passage smooth and flawless? did I make the phrase dynamically shaped? is it a good tonal balance? do I feel phisically comfortable? are all my muscles completely relaxed?" and hundred more similar questions. Then see how many times it will take you to master this little phrase untill you can answer positively to all these questions. Then it is exactly what you want. How many repetitions it takes is very individual and depends on piece and its challenges, as well. If you can do it in 10 repetitions, good. But you might need to do 100, or 1000, or more.... The more critical you are to yourself, the more repetitions it will take. But if in the process you feel you become "numb", stop playing immediately--it is not good. Take a rest and then think again about your image, and about what do you want to say with your music. 

[johnnypiano]

Repeat in different ways.  Not just the obvious ways like staccato/legato; loud/soft; but work out other things as well.  Look at your fingers - this will make you focus.  Shut your eyes - this will make you focus.  Transpose.  This will force you to adapt to having the SAME fingers on different black/white key positions.  The more you have to work out variations, the more you will focus; the more you will keep alive and alert.  Get back to me if you want.  This is a very interesting subject and there are loads of possibilities.  Cheers John. 

[Bob]

I'm thinking in terms of just developing technique.  But if you know a way to do lots of reps on a piece of music, I'd like to hear it.  The best I could come up with for a piece of music was repeating a phrase -- I couldn't pull my mind off an actual piece of music.

What I had was a piece of music that I couldn't play -- The technique was beyond me and I got sore quickly from playing it.  I realized I could just isolate that one technique and build it up slowly over time.  If it was scale speed, I could push the tempo, but I could also push the repetitions and that would help too.  Doing lots of repeitions strengethed and toughened up things, so eventually I could play faster.

Most of the stuff I have in mind is very easy technique -- scales, arpeggios, octaves.  Things that after I practiced them enough, my mind was freed up.  I didn't have to focus on playing -- Yes, after awhile my technique can get a little out of focus, but I just go back and reset the form.

However, if I'm sitting for an hour or two doing these repetition, my mind just zones out majorly.  It can even become a sort of stupor.  I don't like this of course.  I've tried watching tv (which actually works fairly well) or thinking or speaking or reading (I've heard Liszt read books while he practiced).  I'm just looking for more ideas.

Why do I do this?  I can't argue with the results.  Consistency in my playing -- I know what to expect and don't have to worry about some playing technique becoming rusty.  True progress over time -- A little bit of work everyday pays off hugely over a long period of time.  Also, if I worked on pieces of music, I'd have to wait until I'd learned the piece and the music reading would tangle up things too.  For example, instead of pushing my octave speed, I'd be focusing on getting my hands to play octaves over that scale with the extra accident thrown in and that little leap.  Another reason -- consistent progress.   It is so nice to see that this month I'm playing my scales a little bit faster than I could last month.

This is only part of things.  I'm just wondering about this mental glitch during repeition.  I hate the zoned out feeling afterward.

[mound]

If you're repeating something on the same hand so many times over and over that you zone out, you are absolutely wasting your time and probably setting yourself up for some serious repetitive stress injury... Mindless repetition for an extended time is not going to give you any more consistency than mindFULL repetition for a short time. Find something similiar with which to work each hand, from the same piece or not, and as soon as one hand begins to fatique, switch to the other.. This way you can efficiently work each hand w/o worry of injury (read Chang's book for much detail on this.) - and be very mindful of it. I agree with what's been said above.. Focus on your hand, on your muscles, on the tone, on the sound, on the decay of the sound.. Think about what sound you are trying to achieve (this is all ultimately about sound isn't it?  and then focus on if and how you have achieved that desired sound. If you are really focusing on specific goals, your mind will stay engaged. Bernhard has also written at length about all of this stuff, look for threads on boredom, concentration and focus.. Whatever you do, don't mindlessly repeat something, it's not worth it.

-Paul

[Spatula]

Plus its absolutely pointless to repeat stuff you know, for example, bars 5,6 of the Fantasie Imp are a cinch, but I'm still having difficulty with bar 7. 

I've read Chang's book of how to go about this, but I'm still stuck in several spots.

And what seems to bug me is that the 4 vs 3 time during the "a tempo" sections are okay, but when it gets to the slower section, I can't seem to work the 4 vs 3 around. 

[Bob]

Depends what it means to know, what the easy section is

I'm just talking about staying in physical shape and building up physical speed and endurance.

[mound]

I'm just talking about staying in physical shape and building up physical speed and endurance.

work on long fast repertoir.

[jazzyprof]

I'm just talking about staying in physical shape and building up physical speed and endurance.

Unless you're planning to play a one-hour long concerto with lots of bravura sections, I suspect you already have plenty of endurance.  Your typical standard piano piece is only about 4 minutes long, hardly a marathon.  Do not focus too much on physical shape, strength, and endurance.  Such a focus will make you start regarding the piano as a sort of gymnasium attached to a musical instrument.  That is what leads to 100's of mindless repetitions, done sometimes as you say, with eyes glued to the TV.  You've been to health clubs and seen people working out on treadmills or exercise bicycles while they divert themselves with watching TV.  With the piano, the focus should be on the sound, on the music, on developing the coordination that makes it possible to produce sounds which create the emotional response the composer intended. 

Much of the technique you need to produce good sounding music at the correct speed can be obtained by working on pieces at a somewhat higher level than your current level of play.  Work intensely on the hard parts and your technique will grow.  Since you're not a professional pianist (I assume) you're playing the piano for pleasure.  And of course part of that pleasure is playing for other people.  Now when you want to play for your friends are you going to play them incredible scales done in 3rds at 240 bpm or you're going to play some lovely piece from your repertoire?  The point is that by learning tecnique from real music (like Chopin etudes) you kill two birds with one stone:  you increase your repertoire and you buid up your chops.  This way, you get to fully involve the mind because the repetitions you do will be about first getting the notes under your fingers, then into the memory, then bringing out the musical expression as intended by the composer.  You'll see your technique grow.  Even when you're practicing things like scales, you can vary things and keep them fresh by doing different things like using one rhythm for the left hand and another for the right.  The possibilities are endless.  These variations can keep your mind engaged.

[nipon gaki]

have you ever been checked for ADD
maybe you have a low attention span??

[bernhard]

If I want to repeat something 100+ times, how can I keep my mind from going numb?  It seems that the sound and the point after my mind doesn't have to control my fingers quite so much, that my mind can really become numbed from lots of repetition.  Is there any way to keep my mind alert while I do lots of repetition?  Or a way to quickly "reset" my mind after being numbed by these repetitions?

The answer to your question is here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2082.msg17230.html#msg17230

However the posters above are all correct (and you've got excellent answers).

There may be no need to repeat something 100 times. Pianists tend to be a compulsive lot. Have an aim, and once you achieved your aim stop.

If after seven repeats you have not achieved your aim – or if you have not experienced signs of progress – then you are doing something wrong and you should change what you are doing not keep repeating it in the hope that things will somehow sort themselves out. They will not. Instead you will be ingraining whatever is the wrong thing that you are doing and that is stopping your progress.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[janice]

There may be no need to repeat something 100 times. Pianists tend to be a compulsive lot. Have an aim, and once you achieved your aim stop.

If after seven repeats you have not achieved your aim – or if you have not experienced signs of progress – then you are doing something wrong and you should change what you are doing not keep repeating it in the hope that things will somehow sort themselves out. They will not. Instead you will be ingraining whatever is the wrong thing that you are doing and that is stopping your progress.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

It is very important to keep the "7 repetition rule" in mind when practicing.  This is an excellent idea!  It will eliminate alot of mindless repetition, which I so often do.  I know I shouldn't.  If only I could stop myself from playing a particular passage a zillion times!  aargggh!!

[Bob]

I'm not really talking about a piece of music.  Just getting scales, arps, 8ves faster, etc.

[johnnypiano]

Hi! Bob.  If you really feel you have to repeat 100 times do it in 100 different ways.  The challenge would prevent anybody from getting bored - tired perhaps but not bored.

I don't know why anyone would want to to practise very much on scales - their very nature is boring.  However, I have worked out that there are about (wait for it) at least half a million ways of doing scales, using different combinations.  That should keep you going 'till the next millenium.  All the best John.   

[Bob]

You mean like all the combinations of 12?  or 7?

There are lots of things I do in this kind of practicing.  It's just to stay in shape and push my limits.  Apparently, the limits of my mind are getting pushed though, pushed to numbness.

The payoff is nice.  Consistent technique, and consistently improving technique.  Playing a piece of music just doesn't give me the same results.  It might just be me too though.