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Moonlight sonata 3rd fingering (Read 13491 times)

Offline walegard

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Moonlight sonata 3rd fingering
« on: September 03, 2013, 07:39:21 AM »
Hiya.

I need a bit of guidance as I'm self taught and trying to teach myself beethoves moonlights sonata 3rd movement.
As I dont read sheet music, I learn from Youtube and Synthesia.
Important to point out is that I havent got short fingers, Ive got normal ones. I can stretch from C to C easily, even C to D.

However, the beginning of the piece(right hand) bothers me because I cant seem to get the "flow" I need/want.
I need particular help with the first three "runs"(dont know what its called) you do with the right hand.

As of watching Youtube, they teach out to use the fingering like this:

1st run: 1235, 1235, 1245
2nd run: 1235, 1245, 1245
3rd run: 1235, 1245, 1245

However for the 1st run, I find that using 1235 all the way gives me the flow I want and its also easier. Is it better for me in the long run to go with "1235, 1235, 1245"?

For the 2nd run, I find it easier doing 1235, 1235, 1245 because it doesnt mean I have to "jump". When doing as they teach, you have to jump with the little finger when going from 1245 to 1245. And it bothers me A LOT because the whole point of fingering is to prevent jumps???

For the 3rd run its the same as for the 2nd run. I wanna use 1235, 1235, 1245, and it also prevents me from "jumping".

Now how do I tackle this? I dont want to learn the wrong way because its going to affect my technique in the long run. But the right way to learn this doesnt suit me, at all

Regards,
Jon

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Moonlight sonata 3rd fingering
«Reply #1 on: September 03, 2013, 01:33:06 PM »
Use a consistent fingering that helps you achieve the flow you need/want.

The whole point of fingering isn't to avoid jumps.  It's to not run out of fingers. There are all kinds of jumps in this piece that you will have to navigate skillfully no matter which fingering you choose.

 
Unfortunately I have to get up on my soapbox for a minute or two:

You cannot play Beethoven without learning to read music. I'm sorry. It's just not possible.

You claim that you don't want to learn the wrong way because it will affect your technique in the long run.

You are correct; learning the wrong way WILL affect your technique detrimentally over the long term.
 
You are learning the wrong way. I'm sorry.

Perhaps another member of the Learning Police Force will disagree with me here. My opinion remains unchanged. This is a virtuoso work by a virtuoso composer. You need to be a virtuoso to play it well. You cannot learn to be a virtuoso from Youtube and Synthesia.

Offline walegard

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Re: Moonlight sonata 3rd fingering
«Reply #2 on: September 03, 2013, 02:05:29 PM »
Hey

Thanks for your post! I shall learn it the correct way then!
However I don't see why not being able to read sheet music is going to stop be from being able to play Beethoven. I've never had a problem with the dynamics or the timing after mastering a technique. It's all I've had to focus on throughout the years

And you are correct, you cannot learn to be a virtuoso from Youtube or Synhesia, but sheet music wont help you either. Its just dedication and years of practise.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Moonlight sonata 3rd fingering
«Reply #3 on: September 03, 2013, 02:19:33 PM »
How much Beethoven do you want to play? How well do you want to play Beethoven? He wrote a great deal of music. All of it is very difficult to play.

If you want to understand his music well, you are going to run into all kinds of problems that your methods will be unable to cope with.

It will be like someone who has skipped grades 1 through 12 trying to study math in university.
Unless you're one of those weird Indian kids who can multiply 10 digit numbers by 10 digit numbers in their heads, it's just not a good idea.

Offline walegard

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Re: Moonlight sonata 3rd fingering
«Reply #4 on: September 03, 2013, 02:22:13 PM »
Would you recommend another piece to practise instead? If so please enlighten me! :)

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Moonlight sonata 3rd fingering
«Reply #5 on: September 03, 2013, 02:32:16 PM »
I would recommend you to read this short book first and foremost.

http://imslp.org/wiki/Letters_to_a_Young_Lady_on_the_Art_of_Playing_the_Pianoforte_(Czerny,_Carl)

Once you have read it, you alone will know what is best for your progress! Czerny was Beethoven's greatest pupil, and Liszt's greatest teacher. He understood the master's music better than anyone!
 :)

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Moonlight sonata 3rd fingering
«Reply #6 on: September 19, 2013, 11:41:59 AM »
Would you recommend another piece to practise instead? If so please enlighten me! :)

me--playing the arpeggios you are asking about.   pay less attention to watching your fingers- or concentrating on a fingering after you have found one that works..   it's about making the jump to warp speed... it must be effortless..  if you can play without music than you have incredible recall...  that's a great thing. 

do you close your eyes when you play?  or do you watch each move of your hands.    it is scary to stop letting your eyes completely control your hands..  until you realize that it was never your eyes in the first place ..  then ya flow.  8)  BEST


Offline mikeowski

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Re: Moonlight sonata 3rd fingering
«Reply #7 on: September 19, 2013, 01:00:30 PM »
Hey

Thanks for your post! I shall learn it the correct way then!
However I don't see why not being able to read sheet music is going to stop be from being able to play Beethoven. I've never had a problem with the dynamics or the timing after mastering a technique. It's all I've had to focus on throughout the years

And you are correct, you cannot learn to be a virtuoso from Youtube or Synhesia, but sheet music wont help you either. Its just dedication and years of practise.

It's simple. There isn't a youtube tutorial for every piece you'll ever want to play. Actually, once you're done with the low-mid level standard repertoire, you will be hard-pressed to find any tutorial for anything.
Also, sheet music contains much more information about a piece than just the sequence of notes you need to play.
It shows you the speed, rhythm, meter, key, dynamics, accents and you can identify note groupings, harmony, modulations, syncopations, different voices (try learning a fugue with synthesia or a tutorial, if there even is one) and probably much more that I can't think of right now.
There is no way around it, you must learn to read sheet music if you ever want to be a good musician. Once you find out how useful it is, you'll see what a complete waste of time the "play A then B then C-sharp then D, while the left hand plays..."-type of tutorials are.
I know this because I started exactly the same way.
Sheets just have proven themselves to be the superior method not only in terms of learning speed and independence from the existence of a specific tutorial, but also from the better understanding of music and in turn the quality of playing.

edit: do you know for example that the first run is just arpeggiated c#-minor chords in different inversions?
If you do, what're the chords of the 2nd and 3rd run? And the 4th and 5th?
edit2: Or, what key is the piece in? What's the meter? How do you accent the repeated chords at the end of each run? Which notes of the arpeggios need an accent because they're "on the beat" (and what does on the beat even mean?)? etc. etc. It's easy to figure out with sheet music. With synthesia and tutorials not really.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Moonlight sonata 3rd fingering
«Reply #8 on: September 19, 2013, 02:52:09 PM »

And you are correct, you cannot learn to be a virtuoso from Youtube or Synhesia, but sheet music wont help you either. Its just dedication and years of practise.


Dedication to what exactly? Years of practicing what?

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Moonlight sonata 3rd fingering
«Reply #9 on: September 19, 2013, 04:53:55 PM »
Dedication to what exactly? Years of practicing what?


 ;D  I hear ya.  doesn't make sense..  just words.. dedication, practice, talent, virtuoso, musicality.  they are so abused through misuse..  their meaning is lost.