Problems with scales.

[cuyoo59]

Hi i am new to this forum. Hi

I have got so many question playing scales. Especially RH ascending LH descending.

1. I have read Gyorgy Sandors' book. In chapter 5, five fingers, scales, and Arpeggios, pg 61. He says that " When playing the scales, also, we must raise the thumb alongside the hand while turning the elbow outward; then we must immediately lower the wrist in order to arrive at the position the thumb should be in before it descends on the key..........." . Say C major scale RH ascending, my thumb is already facing me when i land on F. This is motion is big. With my thumb not placing inside the palm i can achieve this large motion at a slower tempo, but when it comes to fast tempo, i'm flapping my elbow and it gets tired very quickly. I feel very awkward... my question is can i move my thumb sideways(inside/outside palm) a little bit so i don't have to turn my elbow sooo outward???

2. My 2nd question is the TO method described in Changs Book. What tempo would you use this method? Can i use it at tempo 120 semiquavers? My problem is there is a gap between E and F in C major scale, it doesn't sound legato, it sounds disconnected, the E is not connected to the F so there's no dissonances to create the legato effect. my question is still mainly at the tempo.

3. My last question is...say a b major scale RH ascending or descending... i play scale with a natural shape of the hand, not over curling or flat... here comes the question... when i play b on the thumb, the index and middle finger is kinda flat at C# and D #, so when i play scales ascending... i will gradually raise my wrist until D# to keep my natural arch. and then down wrist when playing the thumb on E and rise again gradually until A# and end with B with a low wrist(my low wrist is parallel to my forearm). is this correct?

Sorry its confusing. Can anyone help me please? 

[rmbarbosa]

Hi! When you play scales legato, you must lift your wrist when you play each turn, in order that your thumb may hold its key with a angle of <> 45º. For example, you play 1-2-3 and, at the moment you use your 3º finger, you lift your wrist and your 1º finger stays at <> 45º. The same when the tur is 4º-1º fingers, e.g. b-c.
C-D - E lifting the wrist-F with your wrist returning to the "normal" position.
Only with fast or very fast scales you may use "TO" (and then you must use it, with a paralel motion of your hand, if not you experiment a speed wall).
Best wishes.
Rui.

PS - if you cant have a teacher, you may wish to search pianoacademycareer.com. This is one of the very few serious sites of piano lessons where you may learn with a very profissional teacher, based on the russian piano school. (this is not publicity, I have no interests but I saw it and liked very much)

[rmbarbosa]

And wellcome to pianoforum! 

[lojay]

I just stumbled on that website because of another post.

It looks good for beginners.  Check out https://www.pianocareer.com/holistic-piano-playing/piano-career-academy-tutorials/ and

first though.  If you go to the academy website and if you tend to think critically, you're going to be put off.

[awesom_o]

Hello cuyoo59,

I wouldn't worry too much about the C major scale right now. It is not the best scale to learn right away, even though it seems like the easiest one to a beginner.

I am very glad that you have found the B major scale. The B major scale fits the hand perfectly!
Do not collapse your wrist when the thumb needs to play! Try and get it to play with a little wiggling motion of its own, using the last knuckle joint as a sort of hinge.

Spend enough time on the key of B major playing scales, broken and solid triads, and arpeggios, and your hands will adapt beautifully to the piano.

LEAVE the C major scale alone for a little while. Really focus on producing a beautiful sound in the B major scale!

I promise it will teach you more about how to play the C major scale than the C major scale ever will.

[cuyoo59]

Thank you all for the replies! I'll investigate more on the scales 

[vansh]

1. I feel very awkward... my question is can i move my thumb sideways(inside/outside palm) a little bit so i don't have to turn my elbow sooo outward???

I haven't read the book so I'm not sure but...it doesn't seem right to have to move the elbow outward too much. I think when playing scales yes your thumb may move inward slightly but it should be mostly your hand (and forearm rotation) that gets the thumb to the right place, not necessarily moving the wrist up and down. But this may just be a different philosophy/school of technique (see below).

2. My 2nd question is the TO method described in Changs Book. What tempo would you use this method? Can i use it at tempo 120 semiquavers? My problem is there is a gap between E and F in C major scale, it doesn't sound legato, it sounds disconnected, the E is not connected to the F so there's no dissonances to create the legato effect. my question is still mainly at the tempo.

My understanding is that the "thumb over" method (a misnomer but just to distinguish from the "thumb under" method) is better for faster scales, so I think 120 semiquavers is fast enough (it's a bit more than an octave a second). You can look at this link for a description of it which is what I'm working off of: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7226.msg72166.html#msg72166

Another link on this is here: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=1918.msg15015#msg15015

When done correctly all the notes should more or less closely link up I think, i.e. there shouldn't be any audible gaps (in fact, my understanding is that when playing scales, all notes should be evenly spaced and equally loud -- that someone can't tell by listening what fingering you're using). The hand (and forearm) are at an angle with the keyboard, such that even though when looking down it's a straight line from your middle finger to your wrist to your elbow, if you were to press your fingers all down at once your thumb would end up pressing the same note as your middle finger or so (for me anyway, everyone's hands are different). For RH ascending, when you use your 234 fingers you're also rotating your forearm so that your palm is gradually facing toward you, then when you use your thumb you rotate your forearm in the other direction (palm facing away from your). This rotation should help to connect the notes on your transition so that there's not a big gap in sound.

I'll try to put up a video of it tomorrow (although note that I'm still just learning/mastering the TO technique so I'm by no means an expert!) because I think it'll give you a better idea of what I mean. Although it's not truly legato, if you're playing the scale fast then the hand moving horizontally across the keys and your forearm rotation will minimize the gap in sound so that it's not any bigger than between the other notes. I think I tend to "cheat" a bit and tuck my thumb slightly under my palm to help connect the notes, but I'm not sure if that's "orthodox" TO technique or not, it's just how I personally tend to end up doing it.

3. My last question is...say a b major scale RH ascending or descending... i play scale with a natural shape of the hand, not over curling or flat... here comes the question... when i play b on the thumb, the index and middle finger is kinda flat at C# and D #, so when i play scales ascending... i will gradually raise my wrist until D# to keep my natural arch. and then down wrist when playing the thumb on E and rise again gradually until A# and end with B with a low wrist(my low wrist is parallel to my forearm). is this correct?

Depends on what technique you're using. Playing the B scale is much better for you than playing the C scale though because the B scale better matches the shape of your hand, so it's easier to understand the proper hand movement when playing scales. So I'd recommend using B while you're figuring this out. But anyway, in TO, your natural arch position is maintained by virtue of rotating your forearm -- your hand is already farther ahead than the key that you're pushing for non-thumb keys (rather than being more or less over it as in TU). Then when you rotate your forearm to play with the thumb, your thumb is farther away from the axis of rotation so that it is automatically lower than the other fingers by the time it hits the key -- so there isn't much need to move the wrist vertically to maintain the arch; it pretty much stays in place vertically.

[nyiregyhazi]

Hi! When you play scales legato, you must lift your wrist when you play each turn, in order that your thumb may hold its key with a angle of <> 45º. For example, you play 1-2-3 and, at the moment you use your 3º finger, you lift your wrist and your 1º finger stays at <> 45º. The same when the tur is 4º-1º fingers, e.g. b-c.
C-D - E lifting the wrist-F with your wrist returning to the "normal" position.
Only with fast or very fast scales you may use "TO" (and then you must use it, with a paralel motion of your hand, if not you experiment a speed wall).
Best wishes.
Rui.

PS - if you cant have a teacher, you may wish to search pianoacademycareer.com. This is one of the very few serious sites of piano lessons where you may learn with a very profissional teacher, based on the russian piano school. (this is not publicity, I have no interests but I saw it and liked very much)

I really can't agree and would have to strongly advise against this. The wrist should already be at the relevant height and should be able to remain there, if the thumb individuates itself out properly to play it's note. Advanced scales do not feature anything significantly pronounced except lateral arm movement. Exaggerating big up down movements is a classic error, to compensate for a lifeless thumb. In an evolved product, they need to be virtually eradicated altogether. It's okay to start with some up down movements, but if you are literally falling down and having to lift back up (rather than catching yourself from falling by moving the thumb well) something is not fully evolved.

[robert07]

Welcome!

It's take time to understand the scale and change them. For understanding the scale, keep listening music with full attention, and then try it to play. As much as you can. Keep practicing and you'll get a good result in few weeks.

Good luck 

[awesom_o]

I really can't agree and would have to strongly advise against this. The wrist should already be at the relevant height and should be able to remain there, if the thumb individuates itself out properly to play it's note. Advanced scales do not feature anything significantly pronounced except lateral arm movement. Exaggerating big up down movements is a classic error, to compensate for a lifeless thumb. In an evolved product, they need to be virtually eradicated altogether. It's okay to start with some up down movements, but if you are literally falling down and having to lift back up (rather than catching yourself from falling by moving the thumb well) something is not fully evolved.

I'm afraid I agree with nyiregyhazi here!

But again, the key of B major should be able to teach you more about good scale playing than 95% of the teachers out there. And for so much less $$!

[cuyoo59]

Thank you guys for posting again hahahaaa 

The rotation bernhard explained is similar to Taubman approach, it's healthy. I have questions again.

1. Do you play scales at the edge of the keys? Like you play the thumb on C and when you play the next key 'D' your thumb goes out.

2. Does abduction or adduction of the hand occurs when playing scales? Is it harmful?

[awesom_o]

Each scale demands has its own demands in terms of playing inside the keys or outside. The closest to playing on the edge of the keys would be C major. For B major, I play closer to the fallboard.

Is abduction of the hand something involving aliens? I don't want to get my hands abducted by aliens.

[timothy42b]

I'm afraid I agree with nyiregyhazi here!

Me too...............and that may actually be the first time ever. 

[cuyoo59]

[cuyoo59]

image taken from Seymours Fink Mastering Piano Technique.

[awesom_o]

Seriously. You need to stop thinking about this kind of stuff. Just play!

I really don't recommend reading books and thinking about abductors as being the way to improve you piano playing skills.

Get on that B major scale!

Post a video! I'll help you sort out all of your problems!

It'll be great! I wanna see that healthy Taubman technique in action!

[cuyoo59]

Have a look.

Sorry it's a bad footage. You can't see my hand and forearm.

Posted by: awesom_o
Insert Quote
Seriously. You need to stop thinking about this kind of stuff. Just play!

I really don't recommend reading books and thinking about abductors as being the way to improve you piano playing skills.

I don't like to read books, so much time is wasted instead of making music. hehe

[pianoplunker]

Hello cuyoo59,

I wouldn't worry too much about the C major scale right now. It is not the best scale to learn right away, even though it seems like the easiest one to a beginner.

I am very glad that you have found the B major scale. The B major scale fits the hand perfectly!
Do not collapse your wrist when the thumb needs to play! Try and get it to play with a little wiggling motion of its own, using the last knuckle joint as a sort of hinge.

Spend enough time on the key of B major playing scales, broken and solid triads, and arpeggios, and your hands will adapt beautifully to the piano.

LEAVE the C major scale alone for a little while. Really focus on producing a beautiful sound in the B major scale!

I promise it will teach you more about how to play the C major scale than the C major scale ever will.

 I like your approach. The B scale is more comfortable. The reason behind that  is  your thumb
is already going downhill when crossing under so it is easy. The Cmajor is straight across so you need to coordinate your arm  to place your thumb. I think you are right. Learn the easy ones first, then you know what legato is supposed to be. and when you learn to move your arm as a transport for your hand -voila it is all smooth.
Whatever you do your hand should not be bunched up everytime you do a "cross-under" . That hurts. 

[vansh]

I've attached a couple of videos of me doing the "thumb-over" method. Please do not take them as definitive examples of what it should look like since I only came across the TO method a few weeks ago (when I came across this forum!), so this is just the progress I've made with it so far. In fact more experienced TOers can probably give me tips on what I'm doing wrong. Hopefully though it'll give you an idea of what it looks like (until more experienced TOers put up videos). Note that I didn't bother trying to do them legato; my understanding is that you use TU for (slower) legato and TO for when you want to play scales fast.

From what I understand, for ascending RH scales, when you do TU your hand stays more or less over the note you're playing, so when it comes time to do the thumb, you have to reach your thumb all the way around underneath, which ends up contorting your hand and shooting your elbow up because you have to rotate your forearm so much. In TO, however, when playing with your non-thumb fingers, your right palm is rotated inward toward your left hand, so your hand is to the right (i.e. ahead) of the note that you're playing. Then when you play with your thumb, the forearm rotation naturally brings your thumb to the right place without you having to reach for it.

So just like TU, you're using forearm rotation, but in TU it was to help the thumb reach under the hand, whereas in TO, the thumb should already be in the right place to just press downward without reaching. One way to think about it (that works for me, anyway) is to consider that in TU, your forearm is alternating between your natural position of 0 degrees and a rotated position of say 60 degrees so that the thumb can reach its note. But that's a large angle so your elbow shoots upward. In TO, you are alternating between 30 degrees and -30 degrees, so you're doing more or less the same amount of rotation, but the difference is that it's rotating around its natural position, which is much easier for the body to do (your hands and arms are weaker and slower the farther they are from their natural position). Also, because the hand is to the right of the note that you're playing, your thumb is in a much more natural position to play the note without having to reach. When playing scales, the note where you transition to your thumb (or off of your thumb for RH descending) is always the hardest one to do, so any technique that makes it easier for your thumb is bound to help.

In the videos you can that my thumb doesn't move all that much, instead most of the motion is due to the forearm rotation rather than the fingers themselves. Although in the first video it looks like my hand didn't rotate that much period (probably because I was focusing on looking at the camera screen to while holding it with my left hand, rather than on what my right hand was doing). I'm sure I'm probably supposed to be doing something with the fingers when I practice TO but in the videos I was more focusing on my forearm rotation.

[awesom_o]

Have a look.

Sorry it's a bad footage. You can't see my hand and forearm. I don't like to read books, so much time is wasted instead of making music. hehe

You need to stop hitting the keys!
I think you are relying too much on the rotational movement to make the keys go down. Use the rotation to help the fingers get into position on the keys themselves.

My Taubman teacher was ALWAYS telling me 'BE THERE'. What she meant by this is that we will always have a much better sound if we play from the surface of the key rather than striking the key from above.

[cuyoo59]

In the videos you can that my thumb doesn't move all that much, instead most of the motion is due to the forearm rotation rather than the fingers themselves. Although in the first video it looks like my hand didn't rotate that much period (probably because I was focusing on looking at the camera screen to while holding it with my left hand, rather than on what my right hand was doing). I'm sure I'm probably supposed to be doing something with the fingers when I practice TO but in the videos I was more focusing on my forearm rotation.

Thanks vansh. Useful video 

Use the rotation to help the fingers get into position on the keys themselves..

awesome_o, sorry i don't understand. If your fingers is already on top of the keys, then why you still do the rotational movement?

One more question... do concert pianists use 'intelligent pedaling' when they play scales?

[attaboy]

While I'm probably way behind nearly everyone when it comes to scales, I just thought I would make this comment.

I will probably be getting into many pieces on the piano that are featured in dixieland jazz since for years I played dixieland clarinet. Two of the most important keys for that idiom are B flat and F concert. Yet I find these keys to be the most difficult for playing scales on the piano.

I really like the suggestion to learn scales in B first before going to C. Didn't Chopin (the great one!!) propose something like that?

[attaboy]

While I'm probably way behind nearly everyone when it comes to scales, I just thought I would make this comment.

I will probably be getting into many pieces on the piano that are featured in dixieland jazz since for years I played dixieland clarinet. Two of the most important keys for that idiom are B flat and F concert. Yet I find these keys to be the most difficult for playing scales on the piano.

I really like the suggestion to learn scales in B first before going to C. Didn't Chopin (the great one!!) propose something like that?

[awesom_o]

awesome_o, sorry i don't understand. If your fingers is already on top of the keys, then why you still do the rotational movement?

One more question... do concert pianists use 'intelligent pedaling' when they play scales?

Certain types of passages benefit from rotation. The rotation doesn't pull the keys down though. You have to do that with your fingers.

What's 'intelligent pedaling'? Most people practice scales without pedal. I'm confused about your question.

[awesom_o]

I really like the suggestion to learn scales in B first before going to C. Didn't Chopin (the great one!!) propose something like that?

Yes!