Fundamentals

[gregh]

How much time do pianists spend on technical studies?

I've spent more time with a trumpet, and on that side they're all about fundamentals-- long tones, lip slurs, flow studies, scales and chords... They spend more time on that than on literature. And there is reason for it-- it takes a lot of disciplined practice to play a beautiful tone that is in tune, to play high notes, to hit a note in the center instead of bending into it and squawking like a duck, to tongue smoothly, etc.

I'm getting the impression here that pianists don't spend as much time on technical studies, and maybe don't have as much need to-- e.g. there's little value in practicing long tones on a piano.

[swagmaster420x]

In my case at least sometimes i dont play piano for the sake of music i do it for the satisfaction of improvememt which can be obtained by obsessing over tchnique

[nyiregyhazi]

How much time do pianists spend on technical studies?

I've spent more time with a trumpet, and on that side they're all about fundamentals-- long tones, lip slurs, flow studies, scales and chords... They spend more time on that than on literature. And there is reason for it-- it takes a lot of disciplined practice to play a beautiful tone that is in tune, to play high notes, to hit a note in the center instead of bending into it and squawking like a duck, to tongue smoothly, etc.

I'm getting the impression here that pianists don't spend as much time on technical studies, and maybe don't have as much need to-- e.g. there's little value in practicing long tones on a piano.

Most pianists certainly play as if they think that- ie. most pianists have an exceedingly poor ability to link the sound of long notes into the next, as part of a coherent phrase. One of the biggest challenges of all is knowing how to stay physically connected to a long note, in such a way as to make the task of connecting the next note (both physically and musically) as easy as possible. Instead, they tend to be stiff or go flaccid and totally lose the physical connection to the sound. There's a lot of technique in connecting a long note to the next.

[pianodisciple]

I have always admired woodwind, brass and vocalists for their capability and skill to shape/voice notes. There is certainly less "breathing room" for lack of technical skill. Granted the piano is in tune, a pianist has the liberty of striking random keys/notes without having to think of fabricating the exact frequency of each note. Nevertheless, it is my opinion musicians who appreciate their art & instrument will understand the continual need for technical improvement and learning as it ultimately frees the mind to explore more creative and complex arrangements.

[gregh]

Most pianists certainly play as if they think that- ie. most pianists have an exceedingly poor ability to link the sound of long notes into the next, as part of a coherent phrase. One of the biggest challenges of all is knowing how to stay physically connected to a long note, in such a way as to make the task of connecting the next note (both physically and musically) as easy as possible. Instead, they tend to be stiff or go flaccid and totally lose the physical connection to the sound. There's a lot of technique in connecting a long note to the next.

I admit I hadn't imagined that this is an issue with the piano. I'm still figuring things out, and one day, with a new piece of music in front of me, I'm sure I'll understand.

[keypeg]

One of the biggest challenges of all is knowing how to stay physically connected to a long note, in such a way as to make the task of connecting the next note (both physically and musically) as easy as possible. Instead, they tend to be stiff or go flaccid and totally lose the physical connection to the sound. There's a lot of technique in connecting a long note to the next.

Yes, absolutely, and this is the kind of thing I am working on (with good guidance).  On piano, a note will sound only if the damper is kept off the string, which is done either by keeping the key depressed, or through pedaling.  The "piano key" way is the first thing we learn.For legato playing, we want note 1 to sound and only to stop sounding at the moment that note 2 is played maybe with a titch of a blend.  So you are holding the key down until you press the next key down but around that point the first key has to go up, all with fingers attached to the same hand, and arm mechanism.  Between the ups and downs you can have a conflict.

Then there is the fact that while you are holding a key down for a long note, you may be drilling a hole in the piano so that you have all this downward pressure when you need to be going up again, and the hole-drilling causes tension in the hand and arm, and maybe into your shoulders and torso.

So it's in this area of the ups and downs that we get into technique, which involves physics and the anatomy of the human body and the structure of the piano, combined with the sounds that you want to produce.  Players of other instruments have to consider this from day 1 or they can't even produce a sound. The piano can be deceptive because for producing a note, even a cat pawing at the keys can "play the piano".

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes, absolutely, and this is the kind of thing I am working on (with good guidance).  On piano, a note will sound only if the damper is kept off the string, which is done either by keeping the key depressed, or through pedaling.  The "piano key" way is the first thing we learn.For legato playing, we want note 1 to sound and only to stop sounding at the moment that note 2 is played maybe with a titch of a blend.  So you are holding the key down until you press the next key down but around that point the first key has to go up, all with fingers attached to the same hand, and arm mechanism.  Between the ups and downs you can have a conflict.

Then there is the fact that while you are holding a key down for a long note, you may be drilling a hole in the piano so that you have all this downward pressure when you need to be going up again, and the hole-drilling causes tension in the hand and arm, and maybe into your shoulders and torso.

So it's in this area of the ups and downs that we get into technique, which involves physics and the anatomy of the human body and the structure of the piano, combined with the sounds that you want to produce.  Players of other instruments have to consider this from day 1 or they can't even produce a sound. The piano can be deceptive because for producing a note, even a cat pawing at the keys can "play the piano".

all these issues are correct, but I'm talking about a psychological connection that goes beyond the practical details of physical legato and relates to something more abstract. In theory, you can make a long line between long notes if you catch each on the pedal and then throw you hand in your lap before the next. In practise, it's much easier if you maintain a physical context of the sound previously made, throughout its full length. A maintained physical intensity of finger activity gives a reference point that makes it easier to contextualise the next sound and integrate it. If you're drilling a hole then it won't work, but it's equally true that a loss of physical connection to the instrument (which comes with over relaxation of the action that sounds the key in the first place) makes it harder to maintain the sense of a long line. Quality contact requires very clear finger pressure on depressed keys, but very little arm pressure. I'd actually say that losing the quality of physical contact is a slightly more common problem than drilling a hole with arm pressure. Often both problems occur in a related fashion, because the finger droops and lets the arm slump excessively down.

[awesom_o]

Another excellent post, nyiregyhazi!

I believe you are really on to something here! Many people can play the right notes at the right time, but VERY few pianists, even at the highest levels of the profession, consistently play with a high-quality of touch!

[gregh]

all these issues are correct, but I'm talking about a psychological connection that goes beyond the practical details of physical legato and relates to something more abstract. In theory, you

Thank you, both, for elaborating. I wasn't sure what was meant, but didn't know how to ask for more. I like the observation that the piano can be deceptive. A beginner can play a simple but passable melody in a very short time, but then there's all the rest of it. Each instrument has its peculiarities, and some of them aren't understandable until you've been studying it for some time.

Or, and this can probably be elevated to a rule about life, "There's always more to it than you think."

Since it's been mentioned, I can manage a decent legato when I'm pressing different keys. But how does that legato go when you keep pressing the same key?

[awesom_o]

Since it's been mentioned, I can manage a decent legato when I'm pressing different keys. But how does that legato go when you keep pressing the same key?

Please do not press the keys. You press buttons. The keys are not buttons.

The keys are actually LEVERS. You pull a lever. You don't push a lever. You push a button.


THIS IS WHY I HATE DIGITAL PIANOS. On a digital piano, the keys are actually buttons. 

[outin]

Please do not press the keys. You press buttons. The keys are not buttons.

The keys are actually LEVERS. You pull a lever. You don't push a lever. You push a button.


THIS IS WHY I HATE DIGITAL PIANOS. On a digital piano, the keys are actually buttons. 

I have wondered why there's so little mention in any of the method books I have seen on this aspect of playing? I mean on how to actually work the keys with the fingers. It always ends with the position of the body and hands and with ridiculous instructions like "holding a little bird in your hand". Of course it also depends on the material one is playing but still I think self learners would need things explained to them better.

Then again opinions seem to differ quite a lot on how to achieve a good touch...

[awesom_o]

Then again opinions seem to differ quite a lot on how to achieve a good touch...

In my experience, opinions do not seem to differ very much at all among those who have achieved a good touch.  




I mean, I've only had about ten or eleven piano teachers, and only three or four of them had a good touch. I noticed that the ones with great touch all seemed to have similar views on how to develop it!

You really need to stop that pushing stuff. Pushing is not cool! Try pulling instead.

[outin]

In my experience, opinions do not seem to differ very much at all among those who have achieved a good touch.  

I mean, I've only had about ten or eleven piano teachers, and only three or four of them had a good touch. I noticed that the ones with great touch all seemed to have similar views on how to develop it!

Well...my first teacher (as an adult) didn't seemt to think there's more to piano playing that finding the right keys at the right time...The one I have now is a complete opposite, it's always about the touch first, the other things will take care of themselves...

You really need to stop that pushing stuff. Pushing is not cool! Try pulling instead.

I'm doing my best not to be a pusher

[awesom_o]

There's certainly a great deal more to playing piano than finding the right keys at the right time.


But if you don't find the right keys at the right time, it just doesn't sound good.


Easier said than done!


Is it about the touch first? Or is it really about the sound first?

After all, Liszt refused to teach technique, and said only 'wash your dirty linen at home'.....

[outin]

Is it about the touch first? Or is it really about the sound first?

Isn't that kind of the same thing? I mean we work on the touch to achieve the sound.

And not all of us learn to use the washing machine without some help...

[awesom_o]

But we also work on the sound to achieve the touch. 

[outin]

But we also work on the sound to achieve the touch. 

That's why we hate digitals? 

[awesom_o]

I hate digital pianos because they do not sound, feel, or behave anything like pianos.

But people seem to think they do! It's bizarre 

[outin]

I hate digital pianos because they do not sound, feel, or behave anything like pianos.

But people seem to think they do! It's bizarre 

I know...I hate the fact that I am not able to stick to the acoustic mode all the time...but some things can't be helped so I try to get what I can out of it...finding the right notes at the right time 

[keypeg]

all these issues are correct, but I'm talking about a psychological connection that goes beyond the practical details of physical legato and relates to something more abstract. In theory, you can make a long line between long notes if you catch each on the pedal and then throw you hand in your lap before the next. In practise, it's much easier if you maintain a physical context of the sound previously made, throughout its full length. A maintained physical intensity of finger activity gives a reference point that makes it easier to contextualise the next sound and integrate it. If you're drilling a hole then it won't work, but it's equally true that a loss of physical connection to the instrument (which comes with over relaxation of the action that sounds the key in the first place) makes it harder to maintain the sense of a long line. Quality contact requires very clear finger pressure on depressed keys, but very little arm pressure. I'd actually say that losing the quality of physical contact is a slightly more common problem than drilling a hole with arm pressure. Often both problems occur in a related fashion, because the finger droops and lets the arm slump excessively down.

I've read this through a number of times, but have not been able to understand what you mean by "psychological connection".  Can you explain?

[j_menz]

But we also work on the sound to achieve the touch. 

Indeed. And because the touch needed to achieve a particular sound on different pianos may vary, it is essential that one does concentrate on the sound to guide the touch.

[awesom_o]

Indeed. And because the touch needed to achieve a particular sound on different pianos may vary, it is essential that one does concentrate on the sound to guide the touch.

I find most well-regulated grand pianos behave in a remarkably consistent manner.

It takes a fabulously consistent touch to be on par with what these instruments can do.

Of course, having a great touch is nothing without a great sound.... but then again, I have yet to meet or hear a pianist with a truly great touch who doesn't have a magnificent sound to go along with it.

You need good hands and good ears to be a musician! 

[outin]

You need good hands and good ears to be a musician! 

I'm quite pleased with my ears, but I wonder where I could get a pair of good hands...

[awesom_o]

Well, you bring up a good point. Having a fine ear is no help whatsoever if we do not know how to use the hands.

Luckily, someone invented the B major scale, so you can all know how to use the hands just right! 

Practice it piano, legato, and aim to develop fluency rather than speed as the goal! Your hands will become beast in no time.

I also highly recommend juggling as a way to train the hands to become better connected to the brain.

[outin]

Well, you bring up a good point. Having a fine ear is no help whatsoever if we do not know how to use the hands.

Luckily, someone invented the B major scale, so you can all know how to use the hands just right! 

Practice it piano, legato, and aim to develop fluency rather than speed as the goal! Your hands will become beast in no time.

I also highly recommend juggling as a way to train the hands to become better connected to the brain.

Juggling??? That seems even harder than playing the piano...how do you even start something like that, I cannot even throw a ball properly

I think I'll just have to accept that no matter how much I play the B major scale (and I do) it will still take quite a few more years for my hands to become beasts...and they will still be quite small beasts...

[awesom_o]

Try playing the B major scale with your hands crossed. THAT's pretty tricky.

Juggling is easy to learn to a certain level! And fun too. Great for the brain!!

[outin]

Juggling is easy to learn to a certain level! And fun too. Great for the brain!!

You can't expect me to go straight to 3 balls...Where's the video on how to throw one?

EDIT: I guess that one covers it too...but I would still need to get some balls first anyway...

[pianoman53]

It's very easy. Pianists has a repertoire that is simply too big for a lifetime. Trumpets play Haydn and 40 seconds in Petrushka. Tihi

[awesom_o]

You can't expect me to go straight to 3 balls...Where's the video on how to throw one?

EDIT: I guess that one covers it too...but I would still need to get some balls first anyway...

Absolutely, start with one ball, then go to two. Only once you can do the two-ball exercises correctly several times in a row without mistakes can you move on to three!

[outin]

Absolutely, start with one ball, then go to two. Only once you can do the two-ball exercises correctly several times in a row without mistakes can you move on to three!

I'd need to be able to handle "stand straight" and "look up where the balls go" part first...

[awesom_o]

Can you brush your teach with either hand?

[outin]

Can you brush your teach with either hand?

I assume you mean teeth?
I can usually do things with both hands, although I am officially right handed. My handwriting sucks with both, but I use right because it's much more practical (due to the fact that we write from left to right).

[awesom_o]

yes, I meant teeth

Try writing with your left hand from right to left instead of from left to write. Just flip the letters around.

[outin]

yes, I meant teeth

Try writing with your left hand from right to left instead of from left to write. Just flip the letters around.

I will if you assure me it will make my playing better 

[outin]

Try playing the B major scale with your hands crossed. THAT's pretty tricky.

I just did and found it surprisingly easy...

It was kind of fun, so I think I'll play them all like that from now on

[awesom_o]

Good! Also try

-hands separated by two octaves instead of one octave

-beginning the scale at the top instead of the bottom

-separated by 3rd, 6th, and 10th instead of one octave

-contrary motion four octaves

[outin]

Good! Also try

-hands separated by two octaves instead of one octave

-beginning the scale at the top instead of the bottom

-separated by 3rd, 6th, and 10th instead of one octave

-contrary motion four octaves

Boy, am I glad you're not my teacher 

I have never properly learned the 3rd, 6th and 10th scales even in a normal way...I tend to get very distracted when I try to do scale work....

[awesom_o]

Boy, am I glad you're not my teacher 

Nonsense! My pupils love me! I teach them that playing the piano is fun, joyful, and never repetitive or boring whatsoever! It's amazing how much progress they make in such a happy environment!

[outin]

Nonsense! My pupils love me! I teach them that playing the piano is fun, joyful, and never repetitive or boring whatsoever! It's amazing how much progress they make in such a happy environment!

I'll take your word for it, but do you make them play their pieces hands crossed also? 

[awesom_o]

Of course not! That would be incredibly counter-productive!   Except for the finale of Chopin's 2nd Sonata. That one is helpful to practice with the hands crossed because it's entirely in unison!

But none of my students are that good yet.

We all play four hands duets together though!  

Go listen to my new piece!

[outin]

Go listen to my new piece!

I did...I always enjoy your playing. The piece was fine too, although I like modern music with a bit more edge to it.

[karenvcruz]

hey folks, just letting you know ... I'm learning a lot from this thread!

and awesome...o, thanks for the tips about the exercises.  I could really try them and do them.