Intensity of mental practice, depth of vizualisation

[stefo78]

Hello,

I read a lot in different forum threads about mental play or mental practice. But I have still interrogations about it, and I did not find the answers yet.

I’m 35, I restarted playing piano two years ago, after more than 20 years of no piano. I studied it however around 4 or 5 years in my schoolhood. I started practicing mental play 6-7 months ago, and I can feel all the great (even miraculous) benefits of it – but this kind of things has already been discussed.

Until now I used mainly MP for memorization. I observed that, consequently and not voluntarily, I could play better, and be much more motivated to play.
But my MP stopped at hand separated : in fact, I can MP both hands separated, but have great difficulties MPing hands together (I saw I’m not only in this case). But the piece is memorized. When I’m physically at the piano, I don’t need the score, but I need some physical work to coordinate my hands and to play the piece. Then, after some time, I can play the piece hands together physically, and hand separated mentally.

The fact is that, it seems to be sufficient : I know the piece, I can write the score perfectly, and I play better than if I had still to read the score. In addition, I feel a very big gap of more needed work between MP hands separated and hands together.
 
What is the need to be able to play hands together ? Does it still increase confidence, memorization, musicality ? Is it needed if I want perfection ?
More generally, in what extent MP is beneficial ? Do I need to be able to visualize both hands with precision and hearing the music of both hands simultaneously in my head ? (which seems impossible for me for now). Is there anyone here who manage to do this, and any experience of progress via effort and time to attain this level ?

I suppose there will be benefits of this kind of “absolute” (?) mental play, but, isn’t it a lot more of work for a too small benefit ? (where the MP I know and I use gives a lot of benefit for not so much work)

So, with an example :
For now, I’m learning Bach invention n°13. I can MP right hand, left hand without problem. When I try MP both hands, I can hardly visualize my two hands, even if I see some moves and keyboard areas which are impacted (as if I saw my two hands blurred with 1cm thick glasses).
I can also nearly sing right hand while visualising left hand (even if I can’t visualize right hand and sing left one – should I try it ?)
Other fact is that I can’t visualize two notes (with one or two hands) when they’re two far each one from the other.
Can I do progress in my MP which could affect my progress in physical play ?

Finally, I read something like with sometime of MP work, it would be like reading – MP become naturally easier, immediate and automatic. Can such thing still happen to me since I’m not a child anymore, working like I do it now ?

[xdjuicebox]

To be able to play a song perfectly, you should be able to visualize both parts playing in your head, and hear the music as it comes together. A cheap way [the way I prefer to do it] is to simply listen to a recording of it, and then you know what the song is supposed to sound like.

If you don't want to do that, then play both hands together slowly and speed it up in your head. The idea is to just get it there. I view mental play sort of as a "command" to my hands while I'm playing, so I forget about my hands completely and just play the song in my head and my hands naturally follow.

You should be able to do both hands together - if you're not able to, chances are the song is probably too hard or something ... or you haven't practiced the song enough yet. It does come with time for every song.

"What is the need to be able to play hands together ? Does it still increase confidence, memorization, musicality ? Is it needed if I want perfection ?"

Not sure if I'm interpreting this correctly, but in my opinion, mental play is everything. Playing without it is like stepping outside your body while you are playing. You're not there. Yes, it's needed if you want perfection unless the song is really easy.

You should be using mental play as you learn the song. It should occur naturally during the learning process. That's how it is for me at least; as I learn the song, I record every note and the way it sounds like in my head, and then I can recall it later on.

You don't really need to "visualize" it while you are playing; the visualization occurs when you're NOT at the piano and want to practice. When you're in front of the piano, think about what it sounds like, what it feels like to push those keys, what your hands feel like when they push it, RELAXING, and look at which keys you need to press ahead of time. You shouldn't close your eyes and visualize a keyboard at this stage, it'll only confuse you.

[awesom_o]

When you're in front of the piano, think about what it sounds like, what it feels like to push those keys, what your hands feel like when they push it.......

Do you really push the keys when you play? I certainly don't.....

[xdjuicebox]

You hands have to push the keys in order for them to go down. It's hard to describe the sensation, but try to just feel what your hands would feel like when you're playing. Feel the feel of the keys I guess.

Just pressing keys is bad though. It must be tied to music

[hardy_practice]

so I forget about my hands completely and just play the song in my head and my hands naturally follow.

That's great if you can play by ear - most can't - I do little bits.

You don't really need to "visualize" it while you are playing; the visualization occurs when you're NOT at the piano and want to practice.

I disagree it happens for both activies.  You may not be aware but, unless you play by ear, your subconscious brain brings up an image a bar or so ahead as an order to your body.  This happens every time you consciously wish to do anything with the body.  IMHO it's how all animals operate.  Visualizing it consciously re-enforces the process.   Stefo - you're doing just great!

Also, to visualize hands together requires such a thorough grasp of the piece that you'll no longer have that problem of 'I've never noticed that before' in the middle of a performance/audition.

[awesom_o]

You hands have to push the keys in order for them to go down. It's hard to describe the sensation, but try to just feel what your hands would feel like when you're playing. Feel the feel of the keys I guess.

Just pressing keys is bad though. It must be tied to music

I really don't recommend pressing or pushing the keys.

[stefo78]

OK, I understand that complete MP is needed...

Single hand MP is so easy while with both hands it's so difficult... Is there anyone here who experienced this difficulty and manage to overcome it with effort, or something ?

And can I ask what you are doing with your keys, when you do nor push neither press or whatelse ?

[hardy_practice]

I pull the keys toward me as the default (I initiate with fingertips, which is quite rare).  After all muscles can only pull.  For accents I drop weight.  For even louder - add muscle to that.

I had an audition yesterday - I ended by playing the Black Note.  I came a cropper because I broke my golden rule of learning the visualization completely.  I was too lazy! 

[stefo78]

Excuse me but is there any real difference, technically speaking, between pushing, pressing, pulling the keys

[awesom_o]

I pull the keys toward me as the default (I initiate with fingertips, which is quite rare).  After all muscles can only pull. 

      

[awesom_o]

Excuse me but is there any real difference, technically speaking, between pushing, pressing, pulling the keys

I push the buttons on an elevator. I press the buttons on my phone. I pull the keys on my piano.

[j_menz]

I push the buttons on an elevator. I press the buttons on my phone. I pull the keys on my piano.

I use psychokinesis for all of them. It saves strain in the hands, but can cause headaches. And the results can be disturbing if one gets distracted. 

[gregh]

I use psychokinesis for all of them. It saves strain in the hands, but can cause headaches. And the results can be disturbing if one gets distracted. 

I've seen instructions to depress buttons. I've tried calling them names and disparaging their lot number, but it didn't seem to work.