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Teaching students to listen (Read 15921 times)

Offline pianoman53

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Teaching students to listen
« on: September 11, 2013, 06:14:14 AM »
So there is this story from my school, about a violin teacher who was about to retire.
Before he did, though, he had to listen to the auditions to the school.
When everyone was finished, and the jury was about to leave, he told then that there was one tape left. "This girl if from Korea, she studied this and this long, and she couldn't come here because of this and this blablabah..." so then they listened to the tape. The jury then decided to lay a vote, but because of her lack of technique and bad intonation, musicality was okay, but not enough. So they decided to not let her come to the academy.
The retiring teacher then smiled like never before and said "Gentlemen, you just dismissed a young Heifetz from studying in our school!".


So this story has two sides. One is the ability to hear genius, beyond intonation and technique. The other one is to be able to listen beyond the name of the performer.

There are plenty of examples on, say, youtube. A big name slaughter a piece, but still gets loads of good comments, because of the name.


How do we teach students to listen "Subjectively", and not first think of the performer and then decide if it's good or not?

Offline j_menz

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #1 on: September 11, 2013, 06:28:26 AM »
To be fair, Heifitz was probably not yet a genius in the recording. And listening for potential genius, rather than evident genius, is quite a challenge.

The name vs result stuff is valid, though. Indeed often you see someone defend a rather poor performance with "but, it's X, it MUST  be good".

There is a certain burden of preconception we all bring to a listening experience, but I feel confidence in one's ability to actually know whether something is good goes a long way to overcoming that. In other words, to teach people how to listen beyond the name of the performer you must teach them what to listen for. What makes a good performance. And that's a big question. Some performances are great notwithstanding their faults, and some are pretty ordinary notwithstanding they are faultless.

How to teach an ability to discern? Lots of listening followed by discussion. I'd also suggest that that be argument, rather than agreement. If the student likes it, you hate it. If they hate it, you love it. Get to the why. The detail. There are, after all, the right ingredients to an opinion, even if there are no "right opinions".  The last thing you want is your student just accepting your opinion without forming their own.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline keypeg

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #2 on: September 11, 2013, 06:35:46 AM »
At the student stage, we are taught what kinds of things we must aim for in music: good timing, even tone, solid bow stroke (since it's Heifetz), straight bow.  So at a student level including an advanced level, that is what a student will listen for.  A teacher, however, will have heard students at all levels, and knows how to identify potential in the raw.  I don't think this kind of listen can be taught..  It comes from experience - in fact the experience of teaching many students and watching them grow.

Offline soitainly

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #3 on: September 12, 2013, 04:39:06 PM »
 I would expect any student applying to any top school is supposed to be pretty complete these days. You can teach technique, but I am not so sure that you can teach intonation or musicality, they can be learned, but not necessarily taught. So do you turn down a player that has great technique and intonation, but is a little dry, I don't know. A violin player in an orchestra doesn't have to be especially creative. If you can't play in tune and don't have good technique, there isn't going to be much of a place for you as a violinist. Maybe that student who was turned down needs to go back to the woodshed and see if he can raise his level of playing.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #4 on: September 12, 2013, 08:06:09 PM »
But it wasn't about being able to listen to what sounds good and musical.  It was about being able to her the potential in an unformed musician.  Why should a student be able to do that?

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #5 on: September 12, 2013, 08:38:10 PM »
A violin player in an orchestra doesn't have to be especially creative.

Sorry, I found this comment to be particularly dimwitted. Do you have any idea how a professional orchestral audition works?

No, I didn't think you did  ;) Cause you wouldn't say something so stupid if you were more enlightened.



Offline j_menz

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #6 on: September 12, 2013, 11:59:28 PM »
Maybe that student who was turned down needs to go back to the woodshed and see if he can raise his level of playing.

Did you actually read the original post? "That student" was Haifitz, one of the greats of the violin. That was the point.  ::)
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #7 on: September 16, 2013, 03:12:37 PM »
Did you actually read the original post? "That student" was Haifitz, one of the greats of the violin. That was the point.  ::)

If the story really happened.

Which it didn't.

Tim

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #8 on: September 16, 2013, 03:18:13 PM »
I found this:

Quote
Jascha Heifetz was born in Vilna, Russia (now Vilnius, Lithuania) on February 2, 1901. His father was a concertmaster and violinist who had no formal training. Heifetz got his first violin (quarter-size) and lessons from his father at the age of three. The young Heifetz' face would scrunch up if he heard dissonance and he would throw a fit when a wrong note was played. His natural ability was evident early on. He easily held the violin under his chin and prompted it with his left hand, things that usually take several lessons to master. He amazed audiences by playing the Mendelssohn Concerto without difficulty at the age of six.

His mother shielded him from all the praise and attention he was getting. It was not until 30 years after his American debut and after his mother had died that Heifetz discovered a sealed chest full of critic's reviews all carefully arranged in chronological order.

His father had a "horror of mediocrity," Heifetz said. The perfectionism was passed from father to son and became a dominant character trait, showing up not only in Heifetz' music but also in his hobbies - ping-pong, tennis and even mixing drinks - all of which he took very seriously.

The family attended concerts, theater and cultural events which served, along with regular family musical evenings, to enrich Heifetz' musical experience and nurture the young prodigy.

After two years with his father and two more with a professional teacher, Heifetz was ready for the master, Leopold Auer of the St. Petersburg Conservatory. Considered the greatest teacher of his time, Auer produced a string of violin prodigies including Efrem Zimbalist and Mischa Elman. The story, possibly apocryphal, is told that Auer was reduced to tears and proclaimed Heifetz to be the best at the boy's audition.

Tim

Offline keypeg

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #9 on: September 16, 2013, 06:59:13 PM »
Again, the question is whether a student should be able to hear potential in another student who has not yet been properly trained.  Forget about Heifetz for the moment.  I DISAGREE that a student should be able to hear this, and I also disagree that it has anything to do with the ability to listen.  In fact, it is the metaphorical students' ability to listen which threw them off in the first place.  It is only with long experience that a teacher can hear what is not yet there, but potentially there.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #10 on: September 16, 2013, 07:52:45 PM »
Again, the question is whether a student should be able to hear potential in another student who has not yet been properly trained. 
<snip>
  In fact, it is the metaphorical students' ability to listen which threw them off in the first place.  It is only with long experience that a teacher can hear what is not yet there, but potentially there.

But there aren't any metaphorical students.  The story specifies a jury, and a jury is made up of faculty. 
Tim

Offline keypeg

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #11 on: September 16, 2013, 08:45:57 PM »
Oh yes, you're right.  I have to say that the whole post is confusing.  It begins with a jury and an unknown student who supposedly has poor intonation, while Heifetz is known for his good intonation. And then it asks how to get STUDENTS to be able to listen.....  I think the OP is actually asking how to gets students to hear........... but the story is about hearing potential, which has nothing to do with what getting students to hear or listen.  The post makes no sense.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #12 on: September 17, 2013, 12:09:16 PM »
Learning to listen for something that's not there yet would seem to be a challenge.

But learning to listen for what IS there is a major task that holds students back.  See the classic book by Gieseking and Leimer. 
Tim

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #13 on: September 17, 2013, 12:53:49 PM »
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No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #14 on: September 18, 2013, 04:24:00 PM »
. The more actively she works, the more detailed but energetically passive her playing sounds. What do you do in such a case?

I don't pretend to have a clue.

I can't help wondering if a mild state of intoxication - maybe a glass of wine or too - would make a difference.  Could be risky, too, but...........
Tim

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #15 on: September 18, 2013, 04:35:06 PM »
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No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #16 on: September 18, 2013, 05:06:54 PM »

Now, if a violonist is raised in the more sentimental, "hugging" Perlman style, for example, then it is conceivable that he/she will reject the "straight", reserved, intellectual approach of a Heifetz, and miss the latter's pure intentions. Any unknown Korean girl that plays in the Heifetz style will consequently also be rejected.
Do you play violin?  (trying to place the "hugging" vs. "straight")

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #17 on: September 18, 2013, 05:16:43 PM »
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No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #18 on: September 18, 2013, 07:55:17 PM »
No, not at all. I wouldn't even know how to hold that instrument. The word choice is how it feels emotionally when I listen to those people. Perlman - heart, Heifetz - mind, no-nonsense. :)

I don't know if you ever listen to virtuoso recorder players.

The world's best is of course Michala Petri, and has been for decades.  I've heard her in person twice, and enjoyed it immensely.  She certainly communicates the heart side. 

I also have at least one CD, which I never listen to.  It just doesn't reach me.  And she does have a bit of a reputation for being on the dry side. 

I think the problem is that she is technically so skilled she plays music beyond what most players can handle.  And music of that difficulty level is inherently less accessible. 
Tim

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #19 on: September 18, 2013, 08:07:02 PM »

Back to Gieseking/Leimer for a moment. 

He suggests using scales to teach listening skills, by requiring you to listen and produce exact evenness of tone and timing.

My interpretation of that is the feedback paradigm.  We learn to improve by 1) having a fixed target in our brain 2) listening to what we produce 3) calculating the error between target and produced 4) making a correction continuously. 

The analog might be your home heating system.  It has a thermostat that you set to 70 F.  It "listens" to the actual, which might be 65 F.  It calculates the error, 5 F.  It makes a correction, turns on the furnace.  Etc. 

The problem for beginners is step 2.  There is just too much going on, and it is hard to listen to both the sound in our head that we want and the sound we are producing, at the same time.  One or the other seems to override.  So hearing really well is a learned skill, and it may be the primary difference between the great players especially prodigies, and the rest of us who struggle.

There is a small caveat with this theory.  I conceptualized this process long before realizing that I am actually a high functioning Asperger's/autistic spectrum,  and therefore my sensory processing is by definition nonstandard, but I don't know all the places it varies from the norm.   
Tim

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #20 on: September 19, 2013, 03:32:12 AM »
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No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #21 on: September 19, 2013, 05:41:04 AM »
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No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #22 on: September 19, 2013, 04:28:51 PM »
No, not at all. I wouldn't even know how to hold that instrument. The word choice is how it feels emotionally when I listen to those people. Perlman - heart, Heifetz - mind, no-nonsense. :)
Thank you for explaining.  I really couldn't picture those kinds of things as being a basis of rejection for violin, in something like a jury.   ;) Personally I have never found Heifetz' playing to be cold. :)  He is able to draw out of the music what he perceives, while Perlman (whose playing I adore) draws out other things.  By chance I remember Perlman talking about Heifetz, and managed to find the clip.

(I was a violin student, and am resuming where I left off when I stopped some years ago).


Offline dcstudio

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #23 on: September 19, 2013, 04:58:39 PM »

so many don't teach students to listen....

they reward them for hearing what they want them to hear.   For having the same opinion of what is good. 

it's like brainwashing..  I think..lol.   tough to get them to have their own ears after that too.. it's like they are betraying their instructor if they like Richter more than Horowitz..   

how do we make it stop?

Offline keypeg

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #24 on: September 19, 2013, 05:12:19 PM »
The whole question of listening to which performance (or performer) is "good" to me is not listening.  In fact, when this thread came up I first didn't understand it, because I've never thought that way.  Ok, I've heard Joe Public talk that way, but didn't expect it in the context of teachers and students.

Listening first of all means to listen FOR something. And to listen for something you need a certain understanding of the music, and you also have to learn how to hear.  On piano you don't create pitch.  But you will learn to hear whether your notes are in control, or if some of them are fading.  You learn how to be with the beat or syncopate, and also be deliberately off the beat or stretch the beat without losing pulse, for effect.  These are not things we start off being able to hear.  I have listed some things that I am learning now, and others that I have acquired as a student.  If you can't hear those things, then all you can go by is a vague impression of "this seems better than that, but I don't know why - maybe it's the big name".

Understanding the music - why you might stretch a note or make a note louder - that's theory, discussion, discovery.  All of this depends much on the teacher who himself/herself has that understanding.

And THEN you go to your various performers, after examining the music, and see what they have done with the music.  Where, at any point, are you asking which is "better" or which is "beautiful" etc?  Should you not be asking "What is it that he is doing with this music, why is he doing it, and would I want to borrow some of that?" ?  And THIS depends first on having learned to listen for (and work toward) some of the specific somewhat technical things that I have mentioned.  Is it done?

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #25 on: September 19, 2013, 06:40:36 PM »
The whole question of listening to which performance (or performer) is "good" to me is not listening. 

This is extremely important!

keypeg, I'm glad to hear you are resuming your studies on the violin! I have recently done the same with the cello, and it has brought me much joy!

I look forward to hearing the fruits of your labour!

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #26 on: September 19, 2013, 08:19:08 PM »

even though teachers know the difference ... or assuming as much..  they aren't always 100% fair now are they?  would it not be in the best interest of an instructor in a large university to create a "flock" of people who think like they do?  would it not stand to reason that this is in fact an underlying cause of so much "musical neurosis?"

so many get programmed to think those department heads "walk on water"... for lack of a better reference.  students follow their every word..because they want to pass.   piano instructors get an hour of one-on-one alone time each week...
most instructors spend at least a few minutes of that time... discussing music "political" department matters .most of the time they do so to help insure that the student will speak well of them to their boss.. because they want to feed their kids.

   that has not changed one bit in University since I was a student.  it is why they don't teach LISTENING in music school...   lol.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #27 on: September 19, 2013, 08:28:32 PM »
Students (and even more so, teachers) need to listen for those fine distinctions.  They need to know what the differences are, in detail, so they can improve their execution. 

Joe Average is okay with "this one is better than that one." 

But there's a subtle trap here for some.

The purpose of music is not to learn to control notes or fade, to play on the beat or syncopate or stretch the time. 

The purpose of music is to move Joe Average, who will never hear how you're doing it, but will respond if you do it correctly. 
Tim

Offline keypeg

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #28 on: September 19, 2013, 10:21:58 PM »
But there's a subtle trap here for some.

The purpose of music is not to learn to control notes or fade, to play on the beat or syncopate or stretch the time. 

The purpose of music is to move Joe Average, who will never hear how you're doing it, but will respond if you do it correctly. 
And how, as a music student intending to play for Joe Average, do you learn to move Joe Average, if you don't learn these tools?  Spare me the teacher who tells you to feel the music, but doesn't teach you the means to create that feeling.  Joe Average may not know how you do it which is fine ---- but if YOU don't know how to do it, you also won't do it, and Joe Average won't feel anything, because you didn't know how to bring it across.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #29 on: September 20, 2013, 01:38:49 AM »
And how, as a music student intending to play for Joe Average, do you learn to move Joe Average, if you don't learn these tools?  Spare me the teacher who tells you to feel the music, but doesn't teach you the means to create that feeling. 

Nope, you're wrong. 

And, you're right. 

I'm an analytical type by nature and it does seem that I need to learn the tools (mechanics) to do it.  But I'm not the only type of student, probably not even the most common type.  Many do fine with a more goal oriented, "inner game of tennis," Arnold Jacobs "Song and Wind" approach.

Many of the most successful performers don't have a clue how they do what they do.  That's why they can be the most abyssmal teachers.   
Tim

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #30 on: September 20, 2013, 01:48:49 AM »
Nope, you're wrong. 

And, you're right. 

I'm an analytical type by nature and it does seem that I need to learn the tools (mechanics) to do it.  But I'm not the only type of student, probably not even the most common type.  Many do fine with a more goal oriented, "inner game of tennis," Arnold Jacobs "Song and Wind" approach.

Many of the most successful performers don't have a clue how they do what they do.  That's why they can be the most abyssmal teachers.   

that's the fact jack! or rather...Timothy.      those that can do..  how effortlessly they play.  few can teach.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #31 on: September 20, 2013, 03:12:21 AM »

Many of the most successful performers don't have a clue how they do what they do.  That's why they can be the most abyssmal teachers.    
Nor may they have a clue about how they have been taught.  I bet that every one of them had a teacher who gave them the tools however subliminally.

In any case, the thread here is called "teaching students to listen", and the largest part of the thread is centered on not teaching students how to be judgmental.

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #32 on: September 20, 2013, 03:29:24 AM »
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No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline j_menz

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #33 on: September 20, 2013, 03:37:48 AM »
A "finger-oriented" teacher/student (very often an intellectual approach to music) will listen for different things than a "whole-body" teacher/student (very often an intuitive, emotional approach to music), and I think that during an audition (s)he may think: "I cannot possible work with such a [fill in a nasty noun], and will reject that candidate, even if there is potential present. It would therefore be wise on the part of the student to know what type of teacher he/she is going to audition for; what artistic ideals they have, what school of thought/playing they are from.

I wonder if there's not actually greater reward to be gained if the teacher and student come from different approaches. Assuming they don't kill one another, of course. But both approaches have their limitations, and the conflict will go some way to stimulate a fuller approach/understanding.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #34 on: September 20, 2013, 03:40:33 AM »
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No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline j_menz

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #35 on: September 20, 2013, 04:29:25 AM »
I would never go to a representative of the French School to learn the finer points in playing Rachmaninoff, that's for sure! The artistic ideals are just too far away from each other. :)

Perhaps. But do you only go to a teacher to learn what they can teach? Surely as an advanced student, and I suspect a good one, you also go to learn from yourself - to test your ideas against a skeptical listener.  Musical performance is, after all, in part (and perhaps in the end entirely) about persuasion.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #36 on: September 20, 2013, 04:39:18 AM »
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No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline j_menz

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #37 on: September 20, 2013, 04:48:27 AM »
but first I will put you on a diet of scales and Hanon, otherwise you won't be able to express what it is really about. Can you believe that a young person may have the wish to die on the spot if they come in such a situation?

That or rebel. And from rebellion comes great things. Those without a taste for it are doomed to mediocrity anyway.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #38 on: September 20, 2013, 05:02:40 AM »
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No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline j_menz

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #39 on: September 20, 2013, 05:16:17 AM »
Since they are the authorities, trying to transfer to another teacher within that same institution without offending anyone seems like a better idea. ;)

Not for those of us with a taste for argument.

P.S.: This example simply triggers the question: What is "listening" and how are we supposed to teach/learn it? I cannot "listen" without activating the rest of who I am.

Nor should you try. But originally the question was about listening without false preconceptions - this must be good because X is playing, or Y is playing so it's going to have these faults. If those preconceptions form part of the "rest of who I am", they need to be purged. We must listen to what is presented, and judge it on its merits - is it consistent, is it effective, is it persuasive? Am I moved (intellectually, emotionally or in some other way)? Am I the same after having heard it?
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #40 on: September 20, 2013, 05:50:01 AM »
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No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline j_menz

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #41 on: September 20, 2013, 06:21:46 AM »
My suggestion for this topic would therefore be the reverse: the burden of being accepted is on the ones that want to be accepted, not on the audience. :)

EDIT: Effectively, this means they should simply learn something about how the target audience listens. If they don't like that kind of listening, they should simply reject such an audience.

From the perspective of the pianist, no doubt that is correct. But from the perspective of the audience, I feel the burden is reversed. And we are, at various times, lucky enough to be in both camps.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #42 on: September 20, 2013, 06:34:38 AM »
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No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline j_menz

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #43 on: September 20, 2013, 06:43:54 AM »
I think the audience is generally more intelligent than they are given credit for, and is always right in terms of taste.

That has been true of every audience of which I have been a member.  ;D

I think a greater problem (even) than the failure to communicate for the reasons you have stated (and I agree it is a problem) is that all too often, all the player wishes to communicate is "look at me, I can play this!". If that ever did cut the mustard, which is debatable, it certainly does not do so in these days of ubiquitous recordings.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #44 on: September 20, 2013, 07:41:56 AM »
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No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #45 on: September 20, 2013, 01:49:32 PM »
Personally... what I feel is going on is this:

The technique which adults use at the piano is fundamentally quite different from the technique which small children playing advanced repertoire tend to acquire.

This is why small children who play other instruments start out on child-sized equivalents. 1/8 and 1/16th size violins and cellos are common..... because a seven year old child trying to play a full-size violin or cello would be like some sort of terrible joke.

This way, children grow into the instrument, the technique, and the repertoire quite gradually.

Not so on the piano! Children as young as 3 or 4 are taught to play on the same gigantic instrument that the great virtuoso plays!
By the time he or she is 7 or 8, having shown all of that 'talent' early on, the pupil is now working on advanced virtuoso material.

By the time he or she is 14 or 15, with an adult body....... the technique which the person learned to make their miniature hands barely get around Gnomenreigen almost a decade ago is now of little use.


They now need to discover the more advanced, efficient ways of playing the piano. Unfortunately, bad habits of movement, which worked so well when the hands were tiny and the pieces were huge, are often so deeply ingrained, that the situation becomes dire.


 

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #46 on: September 20, 2013, 01:56:53 PM »
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No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #47 on: September 20, 2013, 03:20:05 PM »

EDIT: Just to make sure that this is understood correctly: what I said has to do with communication from within, which was present before and seems to have been partly lost.

You'll need to expound on this, dima.

I listened to a recent performance of Umi's and found it to be vastly superior to her earlier playing. To my ears, it was more professional in every way.

How is it that the sloppier performances of her childhood showed more musical potential than this fine rendition?

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #48 on: September 20, 2013, 03:26:41 PM »
I think plenty of people on this very forum could play Gnomenreigen as well or better than Umi played it at 9.

I don't think very many people on this forum at all can play Beethoven as well as she can now!:


Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: Teaching students to listen
«Reply #49 on: September 20, 2013, 04:35:11 PM »
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No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.