Curious about your own rules about fingering

[karenvcruz]

I'm currently studying Mozart pieces and I have two professors.  My regular professor has always believed that one should follow the fingering indicated in the book.  According to her, that is usually how it should be.

I have another professor though, who is of higher stature and calibre than my regular professor.  H e is dean of a school of music where my professor also teaches.  Both my professor and I asked this Dean to review how I play my Mozart piece (Eine Kleine Nachtmusik and Rondo alla Turque).  he made an interesting observation that my problem was in my fingering.  he noticed I tended to slow down and it was more because of the fingering,  He gave me a new set of fingering to follow, and I have to admit, it was far easier and am able to play faster and more precisely without making mistakes.

Just out of curiosity, what would be your own rules or your tips or guidelines that you follow to determine the "right" fingering for you?

do you follow what the books say (or what are indicated in the pieces)?

Did the composers like a Mozart, Beethoven, also put fingerlings when they composed their pieces?

I hope some of you can help me on this one, just so that I could also expand my options on how to play better.

Thanks so much in advance.

[dima_76557]

Just out of curiosity, what would be your own rules or your tips or guidelines that you follow to determine the "right" fingering for you?

1) a fingering that reveals the structure of the music
2) a fingering that is convenient for my hands
3) a fingering that helps memorizing by repeating certain patterns, etc.

Usually, determining good fingering takes me longer than actually learning my pieces.

do you follow what the books say (or what are indicated in the pieces)?

Only if it is known to be the pianist-composer's fingering (Liszt, Rachmaninoff, etc. are known to have given such fingerings in some of their works, and they should always be taken seriously). Many of the editors for classical music don't seem to be very good pianists themselves, or so it seems. Absurd fingering sometimes.

[mjames]

My plan is to always make my hands feel comfortable, I don't care if I'm ignoring Chopin's or Liszt's fingering. As long as the music sounds the way that I intended it to be, then I'm fine. I believe that there is no correct fingering, always find a way that suits your needs. Everyone is different. Then again I'm only a beginner so I don't know much yet, so I might be wrong.

[j_menz]

If it's an editors fingering, I may refer to it if I'm encountering difficulties, but only as a possibility, not a rule to be followed. Some editors are better than others - either because they were simply better pianists or because their hands more closely align with my own.

The same would apply to composers' fingering that is intended as a "helpful hint".

Some composer's fingering, for example List's 2-4/4-2 indication in the Mazeppa TE, is rather different. It's not a "helpful hint" as to how to play it, it's an indication of what the composer believes is needed to achieve the intended sound.  If that composer is a pianist, then I would at least give it a serious go. If I could achieve the same sound an easier way, I might then change to that, though by the time I had got to the point I was sure what sound was intended, I would be probably too used to the indicated fingering to be tempted to change.

[indianajo]

I find the fingering suggestions in printed music to be less than ideal.  For one thing, editors seem to have a real phobia about using the thumb on black notes. I don't. 
One difference is visible in concert films and HD television concert video.  Professional classical concert pianists seem to have a third and fourth finger that appears to be 5 cm longer than their thumb.  My third and fourth fingers are 3 cm longer than my thumb, and my fifth finger is about the same length as my thumb if the fifth is curled for power.  So what works for them, often won't work for me. 
Glad the school head took time to look over your own particular problems and find a personal solution for you. 

[nyiregyhazi]

I find the fingering suggestions in printed music to be less than ideal.  For one thing, editors seem to have a real phobia about using the thumb on black notes. I don't.  
One difference is visible in concert films and HD television concert video.  Professional classical concert pianists seem to have a third and fourth finger that appears to be 5 cm longer than their thumb.  My third and fourth fingers are 3 cm longer than my thumb, and my fifth finger is about the same length as my thumb if the fifth is curled for power.  So what works for them, often won't work for me.  
Glad the school head took time to look over your own particular problems and find a personal solution for you.  

I'm just curious, why would this specific measurement difference be an issue in preventing their fingering working for you? I'm not saying there definitely isn't a valid reason, but surely you have the advantage, if anything? A hand with a bigger distance may sometimes struggle to get the thumb in, or may have difficulties caused by needing to slide the other fingers further back on the keys in order to get the thumb on the keys. That could be limiting, to have more discrepancy. But specifically what would that big distance do to help make something accessible to them which isn't accessible to you? I'd have thought they'd be the ones with fewer options, due to the difficulty of getting both fingers and thumb into functional positions, despite different length. Surely having them closer makes it easier and opens a wider range of options, if anything?

Obviously preferences are different and obviously different size hands (in terms of stretch from 1 to 5) define fingering issues, but I'm rather interested to know more about why you cited that specific measurement as being a defining factor. I've never heard anyone reference that measurement before so any clarification as to why a smaller distance might limit the available options would be of interest.

[awesom_o]

My only rule about fingering is to use as much finger substitution as I can!

Really helps to open up worlds of legato sound you didn't even know existed!

[karenvcruz]

hi folks, thank you for your tips.  I am do glad to see options I have about making adjustments in the fingering.  I guess there was a time when I had a professor in my younger years who would get really upset if I didn't follow the fingering in the books. 

I am also thankful that the dean who studied my fingers while I was playing noticed that I would tend to struggle when I played my pieces.  in fairness, some of the tips he gave me which are similar to some of your advice improved the speed and precision, as well as quality of the music.

an example of this was wen I would play some MozArt pieces wherein my staccatos tended to be individual notes rather thAn staccatos that were crisp, light and yet somehow, when you listen to the notes played, there is a phrasing involved or a flow even if they were staccatos.  I gues my original way of playing sounded too much like a typewriter rather than a morse code. 

[indianajo]

KarenV, I'm glad the music dean has taught you something that makes the sound better.  I've never met any teacher that discussed the difference between typewriter staccato and whatever you are now doing, but it just goes to show there is always more to learn.  

I'm just curious, why would this specific measurement difference be an issue in preventing their fingering working for you? I'm not saying there definitely isn't a valid reason, but surely you have the advantage, if anything? A hand with a bigger distance may sometimes struggle to get the thumb in, or may have difficulties caused by needing to slide the other fingers further back on the keys in order to get the thumb on the keys. That could be limiting, to have more discrepancy. But specifically what would that big distance do to help make something accessible to them which isn't accessible to you? I'd have thought they'd be the ones with fewer options, due to the difficulty of getting both fingers and thumb into functional positions, despite different length. Surely having them closer makes it easier and opens a wider range of options, if anything?
Obviously preferences are different and obviously different size hands (in terms of stretch from 1 to 5) define fingering issues, but I'm rather interested to know more about why you cited that specific measurement as being a defining factor. I've never heard anyone reference that measurement before so any clarification as to why a smaller distance might limit the available options would be of interest.

If one plays with the thumb on the black notes, one is obviously using the other fingers on the white notes up the keyshank from the end, which sacrifices some leverage.  This might affect the maximum volume one could get on a grand piano, as in a concert hall of 600 people, whereas I've never played for more than 60 people at once.  My teacher was never worried about the maximum volume I couldn't achieve with my small, light hands.  There aren't any professional concert pianists I am aware of that are of native American or Siberian raindeer-herder ethnicity.  Nor was there ever any discussion when I was young of making piano a profession or a competition, no matter how many piano guild "contests" I won gold flash medals and  I sounded best at (IMHO).   I saw on a television show, ethnic Siberians have short arms, short legs, long torso,  and small hands with short fingers and toes.  Another show mentioned the small hands and feet the Nez Peirce native Am.  tribe were observed to have.  That describes me.  It is not dwarfism, it is just a regional variation.  The presenter theorized that possibly this variation is an adaptation to the cold. Similar traits are also seen in snow foxes, short eared arctic and mountain rabbits, etc etc.    
One thing short fingers do, is increase the angle the joint has to achieve to do a 2-3 or 3-4 finger crossover.  This makes that fingering more stressful, and at age 63, painful. I don't do many of those, and am having trouble with a JS Bach piece that is my favorite which seems to require two of those in the same measure.  Rolling the wrist twice rapidly seems to be the trick there.  The teacher I  consulted about this measure suggested I help finger the line with the other hand, which messes up the tonal separation of left and right (on organ). It is obvious from the LP E. Power Biggs didn't do it that way.  
I think.  Passacaglia & Fugue in C min.  
Another variation is the limited spread I can do between second and fifth finger.  An Augmented fifth is about it for me.  I was watching Freddy Neal the electric pianist in the Kenny Neal blues band last night.on KET Jubilee program #1507.   He was doing some things in his accompaniment that weren't very fast or hard, but I don't think I can do those things.  Mr Neal is afro-American, and as is typical has fingers longer than mine. I hope to record this program later and study Mr. Freddy's technique in slow motion. The hands are shown quite closely for long passages.   At least I didn't study guitar, where a lot of the chords on the chart are not doable with short fingers.  I know, I tried that for a while.  

[nyiregyhazi]

KarenV, I'm glad the music dean has taught you something that makes the sound better.  I've never met any teacher that discussed the difference between typewriter staccato and whatever you are now doing, but it just goes to show there is always more to learn.  If one plays with the thumb on the black notes, one is obviously using the other fingers on the white notes up the keyshank from the end, which sacrifices some leverage.  This might affect the maximum volume one could get on a grand piano, as in a concert hall of 600 people, whereas I've never played for more than 60 people at once.  My teacher was never worried about the maximum volume I couldn't achieve with my small, light hands.  There aren't any professional concert pianists I am aware of that are of native American or Siberian raindeer-herder ethnicity.  Nor was there ever any discussion when I was young of making piano a profession or a competition, no matter how many piano guild "contests" I won gold flash medals and  I sounded best at (IMHO).   I saw on a television show, ethnic Siberians have short arms, short legs, long torso,  and small hands with short fingers and toes.  Another show mentioned the small hands and feet the Nez Peirce native Am.  tribe were observed to have.  That describes me.  It is not dwarfism, it is just a regional variation.  The presenter theorized that possibly this variation is an adaptation to the cold. Similar traits are also seen in snow foxes, short eared arctic and mountain rabbits, etc etc.    
One thing short fingers do, is increase the angle the joint has to achieve to do a 2-3 or 3-4 finger crossover.  This makes that fingering more stressful, and at age 63, painful. I don't do many of those, and am having trouble with a JS Bach piece that is my favorite which seems to require two of those in the same measure.  Rolling the wrist twice rapidly seems to be the trick there.  The teacher I  consulted about this measure suggested I help finger the line with the other hand, which messes up the tonal separation of left and right (on organ). It is obvious from the LP E. Power Biggs didn't do it that way.  
I think.  Passacaglia & Fugue in C min.  
Another variation is the limited spread I can do between second and fifth finger.  An Augmented fifth is about it for me.  I was watching Freddy Neal the electric pianist in the Kenny Neal blues band last night.on KET Jubilee program #1507.   He was doing some things in his accompaniment that weren't very fast or hard, but I don't think I can do those things.  Mr Neal is afro-American, and as is typical has fingers longer than mine. I hope to record this program later and study Mr. Freddy's technique in slow motion. The hands are shown quite closely for long passages.   At least I didn't study guitar, where a lot of the chords on the chart are not doable with short fingers.  I know, I tried that for a while.  

Its basically just a regular small hand issue then? I was wondering if that was the case, but I was just rather curious that you gave that very specific measurement, rather than just speak of smaller hands in more usual terms. Hypothetically, you could have a large hand with a very long thumb that makes the measurement as small as your own. In this case, it would actually be a huge advantage over someone with the same size hand but a bigger discrepancy.

[minona]

I'm curious to know how advantageous it is to know many different fingerings for each key. In CPE Bach's manual, some only are written as having one fingering, so does that present a disadvantage for those keys?

Thanks

[awesom_o]

You should be able to play all of the major scales using different fingerings.

I recommend using the C major fingering for the major keys beginning on sharps and flats as a great way to break into highly-advanced technique. 

[sheryllr]

Generally, I consider the composer's fingerings first (if they are indeed what is listed and not an editor's).  However, many times I am dealing with much smaller hands (for example, children) and in that case you can't always 'go by the book' and need to make changes. 

There are established ways to play scale runs and the like covered in Hanon's Virtuoso Pianist.  This is a great source for fingerings.  In general, in melodic runs, you probably wouldn't want to put a thumb on a black key and in longer runs you need to turn the thumb under, so as to not "run out of fingers", etc. You can also bring the hand together in order to do so as well.  You use your second finger on right hand first inversion and left hand second inversion and middle finger in the middle of root position chords. 

But I'm sure somewhere in some piece, there are exceptions to these rules. Individual hands can be very different and you need to keep this in mind with students in order to make any needed adjustments. 

[4greatkeyboards]

In the book titled "The Great Pianists" there is an anecdote about Liszt who was once asked about fingering. He said fingering was spontaneous and proceeded to demonstrate on the piano while he held a cigar in his left hand and played [around it].

[cometear]

I determine fingering after several things. I firstly ensure I am not stretching and that I am comfortable. I like using editions that don't have many fingering markings in them, such as Henle. After I determine a reasonable fingering I like to try it out than.