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Digital piano for classical music? (Read 31290 times)

Offline hanon_virtuoso

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Digital piano for classical music?
« on: September 13, 2013, 12:25:03 AM »
Hi :)

What do you think about digital piano for classical music?
Personally i like digital piano, because it has more feature like recording, other sound, no need tuning, etc.
But some people said that digital piano lack of expressiveness, limited dynamic range, etc. And people also said that we can't play legato passages perfectly on digital piano.

My question is what do you think about some people statement above? is they right or wrong and why? i do really confused now   ;D

If i go to digital piano, maybe i will take Kawai CN34. if i go to acoustic, maybe i will take Kawai K-3.
What do you think about the instrument?
Do you know dynamic sample level on kawai cn34?

Thanks
Sorry for my english  ;D

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #1 on: September 13, 2013, 09:49:36 AM »
I own both a digital and an old acoustic grand piano. I practice a lot on the digital and if I lived in a tight apartment situation it is possible that I would own only a digital piano. I do prefer the grand for classical music but that isn't to say that it can't be done on the digital.

In terms of Kawai ( I own a Kawai digital), the action is very good, quite realistic. The touch on mine is adjustable almost endlessly, between EQ adjustments of sound and curve adjustment of the touch, Sustain adjustments, both with and without pedal, I've made it simulate my grand fairly well. Not perfect but quite well. Not all digitals do this. The CN34 does a fair amount of this but you would have to get into the manual to find out if the curve can be adjusted.

Digital has come a long ways and you can get a lot of enjoyment from one and as you say, never tune it. One thing is left that can not be duplicated and that's the fact that acoustic pianos give live string sound. It's real, it's live right in your presence. As good as digital is, the sound is always delivered over a speaker or speaker system. To a lot of people this is perfectly acceptable. If you are one of those people then that is the compromise you will accept !

This is one location where the manual is available in PDF format: http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7tkSADNSEW0AboZXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzZmpjYzZlBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA3N18x/SIG=129f5jg8k/EXP=1379102866/**http%3a//www.kawai.co.jp/worldwide/support/manuals.html
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline hanon_virtuoso

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #2 on: September 13, 2013, 01:35:05 PM »
Hi Mr. Hfmadopter
Thanks for your feedback  :)

May I know about your relationship with classical music? Are u a serious classical pianist or a teacher, etc? Sorry to ask, just wanna know  ;D

Yes, many people said that kawai digital has the closest sound and touch to a real acoustic piano nowdays. i hope what many people said about kawai digital is true.
Honestly, i never touch that kawai CN34 yet, because there are no Kawai seller on my city (Yamaha? very much  :-X)
But i think i just love the Kawai Cn34, the price is not very high (about $1500 in Indonesia), has many feature and uptodate tech.  :D

May you teach me the setting on digital so it came closer to grand piano? because the best piano i ever touch is an old Kawai Upright that i use on piano course. ;D

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #3 on: September 13, 2013, 01:48:53 PM »

But some people said that digital piano lack of expressiveness, limited dynamic range, etc. And people also said that we can't play legato passages perfectly on digital piano.



This is absolutely correct! The reason why you cannot study legato properly on a digital piano is because it doesn't have piano keys.

It has buttons which look like piano keys, but they do not function in the same way.

Actual piano keys are levers that function in a highly particular way. Learning how to play piano requires us to understand these levers.

The keys on digital pianos are not levers. They are just buttons.

You push a button. You pull a lever.

That is the difference.

Offline mikeowski

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #4 on: September 13, 2013, 03:31:11 PM »
Actually, not quite correct.
Digital pianos (at least from mid-level price and up) have something resembling a hammer action.
The one I have at home (Roland FP7-F) has an action that looks like this:

The keys have little lead (I think) hammers at the end. They are obviously not the same as from a real piano, but technically speaking they are levers.

Also, the more expensive the dp, the better the action gets. Take the Yamaha Avantgrand n2 for example:


However, the limited dynamic range and expressivness is a fact and the reason I will soon get a real piano.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #5 on: September 13, 2013, 03:47:36 PM »

Digital pianos (at least from mid-level price and up) have something resembling a hammer action.


In this case, 'something resembling a hammer action' and an actual action stack with hammers behave very differently.

I am aware of the Avant-Grande and it is certainly one of the most acceptable digital pianos. Not cheap, though. You could get a good piano for that price.

There are so many moving parts in a real piano action. They interact in such a complex way.

Digital pianos are good in the way that really good driving games feel extremely realistic.

Being able to handle a real race car on a real track is a different beast altogether. You need real-life driving experience to develop those kinds of skills.

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #6 on: September 13, 2013, 04:19:29 PM »
Digital piano's are fine to practise on, at least if you got a good one. Still you have to occasionally play a -good- accoustic one since it is indeed slightly different. The same can be said about playing onan accoustic upright or on a grand: An advanced pianist has to get accustomed to it too.

The typical digital upright has pretty crappy speakers though, so you better buy good headphones for it. I only heard decent speakersound on the grand yamaha clavinova series.

Also, some accoustic piano's can be really crappy, even if they're new. So what to buy depends on a lot of factors, and on how much you want your neighbours to hear your music ;)
1+1=11

Offline cabbynum

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #7 on: September 13, 2013, 05:30:08 PM »
I played on a digital in my house for a bit over a year, i new a grand would be better and that it would help me play and get me ready for real piano playing.

i did not know how much of a difference it made. I practice a lot more now that i have a grand piano. i also cant stand the sound of my digital anymore, it was a really really nice one too with really good speakers but still sounds terrible. even though i thought it sounded great before
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Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #8 on: September 13, 2013, 06:51:06 PM »
This is absolutely correct! The reason why you cannot study legato properly on a digital piano is because it doesn't have piano keys.

It has buttons which look like piano keys, but they do not function in the same way.

Actual piano keys are levers that function in a highly particular way. Learning how to play piano requires us to understand these levers.

The keys on digital pianos are not levers. They are just buttons.

You push a button. You pull a lever.

That is the difference.

 The Kawai ( later Kawai digital) action is good. Of course that is one persons opinion, I've seen complaints that some folks think it's too heavy. Most of them have been long term keyboard players and ohters just don't like Kawai action even in an acoustic piano. So Kawai is not going to please either set of those people. The action is designed like their grand piano action. Of course the hammer end of the action is run through a velocity switch basically, but still, the action feels like a grand piano action. Not 100% so, no, but it's quite good. I'd have sent it back if it wasn't at least similar to how an acoustic feels.. It is however, very subject to how you set it all up. At that, most lower end digital pianos have little to no setup.

The later Kawai action comes in two flavors. Similar in design but one is made of wood the other plastic, FWIW. I do believe the CN34 has the plastic action in it ( I certainly could be wrong), as does my now older model MP6 stage piano.

If you have never seen the action of the  Kawai digital pianos you can see them at Kawai's web sites ( US, Europe, World Wide etc). Still, to experience one you just have to play it. The same can be said for any pianos, acoustic or digital, you must play them in order to get the one you most want.

Sound is another matter though, there I may tweak for ever. It is good that I own an acoustic grand piano.
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline hanon_virtuoso

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #9 on: September 14, 2013, 12:12:24 AM »
Thanks all for the feedback   :)

So the conclusion is mechanism on Digital piano still can't be same with grandpiano, but it is not so bad too if we use a good one digital. What do you think about Kawai CN34? is that good enough?

I have read that some computer software like pianoteq,etc can provide 127 level dynamic, and other factor that grand piano have. Anyone have tested it? Can you give some info?
 ;D

Offline bronnestam

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #10 on: September 14, 2013, 07:26:58 AM »



If you have never seen the action of the  Kawai digital pianos you can see them at Kawai's web sites ( US, Europe, World Wide etc). Still, to experience one you just have to play it. tHe same can be said for any piano, acoustic or digital, you must play them in order to get the one you most want.

Sound is another matter though, there I may tweak for ever. It is good that I own an acoustic grand piano.

But to tell the truth, the MAJOR advantage of a digital is the headphone feature ... if I wanted to play aloud all the time, I would probably also have an upright, or even invest in a baby grand. But that is no option to me; I really really need those headphones. And my digital sounds perfect in those.

So, what matters is the action of the keys, and yes, this is something you have to try out. Personally I am all in for the Clavinovas; others prefer other brands and so on.

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #11 on: September 14, 2013, 07:45:13 AM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #12 on: September 14, 2013, 10:00:00 AM »
Hi Mr. Hfmadopter


May I know about your relationship with classical music? Are u a serious classical pianist or a teacher, etc? Sorry to ask, just wanna know  ;D


Classical music and now other forms of music as well reaches into my soul and exists there. I've been around music most of my 63 years of life but I have 0 credentials to offer. I bought my grand piano more than 30 years ago, took lessons in classical piano for 9 years and piano lessons for 11 years all together and a long time ago . I took accordion lessons for 5 years as a child. In the end I am an enthusiast like many others in the forum. I take my music and my piano seriously but am not a professional anything regarding my music or the piano. Just been around it a long time that's all. With time and a lot of effort comes various levels of experiences. From performances, to helping rebuild the piano I ended up buying, to doing some light weight non professional teaching.

 I bought my digital, after 6 months of investigating digital pianos, last winter. I once owned an upright piano and the one I owned had lovely tone but couldn't repeat notes fast enough for second year classical piano lessons. I took classical piano for 9 years and piano overall for 11 officially. But we are all students for ever ! The digital repeats fast enough and I'm sure later ones are all the better.

There is plenty more but I don't want to bore the forum. Basically, like many here I am an enthusiast, just been at it a long time is all.

Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #13 on: September 14, 2013, 10:09:22 AM »
Even if you have the money for a concert grand at home, in some countries, "hard work" on a regular instrument can get you in jail, like that Spanish pianist Laia M. not so long ago, so it's either:
1) a good digital piano
2) a full-time job to pay for the rent of another place to practise, which defeats the purpose because one has only 100% time + energy to reach a certain goal within a certain time frame.

There is something to be said for a good set of headphones. On a digital piano it's very difficult to get a speaker system to sound as accurate as a good headphone set. I'm a person who loves to project my music out into a room though. I believe that music belongs projected out into the space around us if not actually out into the universe, to get the best feeling from it. However, perhaps the neighbors don't agree all the time ! At least with digital the headphones sound as if the music is being played into a room. The better ones really do sound that way.
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #14 on: September 14, 2013, 02:54:03 PM »
As for buying one, go to a big dealer, ask for good headphones and try them out, multiple times. There's not much point for to say what you should buy because everybody has his own taste.

Somewhere near a decade ago i bought the Yamaha clavinova clp-950 and i'm using sennheiser HD448 headphones. I'm still very happy with that combination and use it quite a lot for practising, even though i do have a grand. But thats my opinion, maybe you wouldnt like it at all ;)
1+1=11

Offline hanon_virtuoso

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #15 on: September 14, 2013, 04:37:24 PM »
Thanks all for the feedback   :)

From the feedback above i can conclude that digital is still a good choice to practice, but if we can buy a grand piano then it's better. But for now i think will go to the digital one. I'm still a student and i'm sure you understand  :D
I wont distress my parents too much, they have give me a favor to upgrade my piano. The previous and still used is Yamaha DGX 630. I bought it when i was just enter piano course.  ;D

As for buying one, go to a big dealer, ask for good headphones and try them out, multiple times. There's not much point for to say what you should buy because everybody has his own taste.

I really hope that i can try Kawai CN34 myself before buy it, but i have no choice. In my city, only yamaha exist, i dont like it too much, so I decide to try Kawai CN34 which praised by many although i cant test it. But i hope i will like it  :D



Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #16 on: September 14, 2013, 07:52:51 PM »
Thanks all for the feedback   :)

From the feedback above i can conclude that digital is still a good choice to practice, but if we can buy a grand piano then it's better. But for now i think will go to the digital one. I'm still a student and i'm sure you understand  :D
I wont distress my parents too much, they have give me a favor to upgrade my piano. The previous and still used is Yamaha DGX 630. I bought it when i was just enter piano course.  ;D

I really hope that i can try Kawai CN34 myself before buy it, but i have no choice. In my city, only yamaha exist, i dont like it too much, so I decide to try Kawai CN34 which praised by many although i cant test it. But i hope i will like it  :D


You could have a worse piano than the DGX 630. I've played one of those, I believe you will find the Kawai action heavier and the distance to the key bed slightly deeper if you buy the piano you have been discussing. The Kawai action will feel more like a grand piano action in the mid weight range. I'm saying this based off my MP6 though, I have not played on the CN34 but the action is similar in design.

You will be hard pressed to get anyone to agree that you should just order any piano without first playing it ! Is there no way to get to a place where there is a Kawai dealer ? If not you may just want to be looking at the Yamaha Clavinova series pianos as an option where you say you have Yamaha dealers there..

Do you have good grade headphone now ? If not start with those and your DGX 630 and move onward from there if to stick with digital.
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #17 on: September 14, 2013, 08:50:44 PM »
3rd  mvmt of Moonlight on my yamaha.            I love it for classical--my ears have become digitally tunes so acoustic pianos hurt me from the start.  As far as action goes... it is generally, yes slightly different...but perfectly balanced.  Each key can be counted on to perform exactly the same way.  I like that.  Walking in and looking at a big old grand--never know what you're gonna get.   

OF COURSE--if we are talking the big name pianos--that have been precisely made...and well cared for and are tuned...  well my little digital doesn't come close.


Offline pianoman53

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #18 on: September 15, 2013, 05:45:00 AM »
It very much depends on what you want to do with your music. If your goal is to become a concert pianist, then it's a no no. They clearly lack in tone, color, dynamics, pedaling, and sound in general. The touch is also very different.
Though, if your goal is to become like a pianists for Weddings or bars or other things where the music isn't the main attraction, then a digital might work just fine, since you might need to carry one with you.

Offline bronnestam

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #19 on: September 15, 2013, 08:07:29 AM »
It very much depends on what you want to do with your music. If your goal is to become a concert pianist, then it's a no no. They clearly lack in tone, color, dynamics, pedaling, and sound in general. The touch is also very different.
Though, if your goal is to become like a pianists for Weddings or bars or other things where the music isn't the main attraction, then a digital might work just fine, since you might need to carry one with you.

Even concert pianists own digitals in these days, for the same reason as for the rest of us: it is not always convenient to play on a piano where you cannot turn the volume down.
Good digitals are very good nowadays. Cheap digitals are sometimes rather horrible, but some of them have the advantage of being very portable and light-weight instead. But any digital is far better than no piano at all!

Of course a concert pianist, who is to perform in public on concert grands, must have her practicing hours at grand pianos. But it is stupid to think that you need it all the time. When you do exercises and try to figure out fingering and learning new pieces, you need a keyboard of some kind, but it does not have to be big and expensive.

 

Offline pennib

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #20 on: September 15, 2013, 08:34:29 AM »
Hi, Just like add my experience with digital pianos to this thread. I bought a Clavinova 430 which yes has a good sound however I didn't like the key action at all. Far too heavy for my liking and it was aggravating my existing Arthritis. Eventually I had the chance to try the new Yamaha Nu1, liked it immediately. The key action was as near to an acoustic piano action as I have ever tried. (I have never tried the Kawaii range however) The sound was in my opinion superior to the Clavinovas also.

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #21 on: September 15, 2013, 09:26:09 AM »
Hi, Just like add my experience with digital pianos to this thread. I bought a Clavinova 430 which yes has a good sound however I didn't like the key action at all. Far too heavy for my liking and it was aggravating my existing Arthritis. Eventually I had the chance to try the new Yamaha Nu1, liked it immediately. The key action was as near to an acoustic piano action as I have ever tried. (I have never tried the Kawaii range however) The sound was in my opinion superior to the Clavinovas also.

Not all Clavinova's have the same weight keys, FWIW. I know that the 440 is supposed to be heavy, you can see many posts and videos on that subject doing a general search in your browser. Some models are not as heavy though.
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline iansinclair

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #22 on: September 16, 2013, 08:11:55 PM »
I had the rather interesting experience of taking a vacation for a week lately (how do you take a vacation when you are retired?  Oh well...) and wanting to keep practicing.  The place I went had available a very good Yamaha stage piano type of thing -- not sure of the model, but recent -- basically a keyboard and a stand to set it on, and a sustaining pedal switch.  Good speakers

I'd never played such a creature extensively before.

Observations, for what they are worth:
tone quality generally excellent, although the bass was poorly matched in quality to the treble (roughly from the C below middle C down was much more emphasized).
The action was just plain weird feeling, but I'm used to a grand.  Not bad action, but strange.
There was no partial sustain, which I am quite accustomed to using.
Nowhere near the dynamic range available.
Perhaps the biggest difference, though, and one which would have a real impact on learning and practicing romantic and later pieces was that the notes did not sustain anywhere near as long as they do on my grands.  The volume dropped off much more quickly and abruptly than I was used to.

Just one old timer's observations...
Ian

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #23 on: September 16, 2013, 08:54:16 PM »
I had the rather interesting experience of taking a vacation for a week lately (how do you take a vacation when you are retired?  Oh well...) and wanting to keep practicing.  The place I went had available a very good Yamaha stage piano type of thing -- not sure of the model, but recent -- basically a keyboard and a stand to set it on, and a sustaining pedal switch.  Good speakers

I'd never played such a creature extensively before.

Observations, for what they are worth:
tone quality generally excellent, although the bass was poorly matched in quality to the treble (roughly from the C below middle C down was much more emphasized).
The action was just plain weird feeling, but I'm used to a grand.  Not bad action, but strange.
There was no partial sustain, which I am quite accustomed to using.
Nowhere near the dynamic range available.
Perhaps the biggest difference, though, and one which would have a real impact on learning and practicing romantic and later pieces was that the notes did not sustain anywhere near as long as they do on my grands.  The volume dropped off much more quickly and abruptly than I was used to.

Just one old timer's observations...

That's all fine Ian and also what a lot of people find. However, you really have to get to know the exact piano to buy and find all the menus before you can determine too much. The better keyboards have adjustable sustain for the notes and partial sustain for the pedal and about every adjustment in between ( my Kawai adjusts for hammer release off the keys, hammer sound touching the keys, open string sounds. I tuned it to closely match as best I could, my grand in terms of sustain with and without pedal and even that little clunk you get in the upper notes of hammers hitting the strings.). It's still not perfect but the closer one can get the more enjoyable it becomes to play or switch between instruments.

Yes the keys can be weird. Many are spring action keys. Others have action but the initial depression tension is less than full depression. That's all fine if one plays keyboard all the time but a hindrance when switching back and forth from a full acoustic grand and still learning. Someone with experience like yourself will learn to adjust, a beginner might find that tough to deal with.

That all said, even very experienced piano players who also play keyboard find a common gripe in the sustain pedal. You read about that a lot here. My beef is I tend to look for more pedal on the digital, I feel like I'm shoving it into the basement ! If I ever layed into the pedal on my grand like I do on the keyboard it would drive me nuts. I have a very light pedal foot on the grand and just about leave it pegged down on the digital !
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline pianoplunker

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #24 on: September 21, 2013, 04:32:27 AM »
Hi :)

What do you think about digital piano for classical music?
Personally i like digital piano, because it has more feature like recording, other sound, no need tuning, etc.
But some people said that digital piano lack of expressiveness, limited dynamic range, etc. And people also said that we can't play legato passages perfectly on digital piano.

My question is what do you think about some people statement above? is they right or wrong and why? i do really confused now   ;D

If i go to digital piano, maybe i will take Kawai CN34. if i go to acoustic, maybe i will take Kawai K-3.
What do you think about the instrument?
Do you know dynamic sample level on kawai cn34?

Thanks
Sorry for my english  ;D

I think people that say that about digital are correct. There are a couple of major differences which digital cannot match.  The first is that with an acoustic instrument, we are actually physically moving air. You can actually feel it in a way that a speaker cannot duplicate. This also creates a much larger dynamic range. The second difference is that the keys of the digital are programmed to be on or off and mixed with velocity . The keys on a acoustic piano are almost unlimited in how they strike the strings. And the way we release the key on an acoustic is also much more of an art. With digital it simply turns off even if we use sustain. 

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #25 on: September 21, 2013, 08:28:31 AM »
I think people that say that about digital are correct. There are a couple of major differences which digital cannot match.  The first is that with an acoustic instrument, we are actually physically moving air. You can actually feel it in a way that a speaker cannot duplicate. This also creates a much larger dynamic range. The second difference is that the keys of the digital are programmed to be on or off and mixed with velocity . The keys on a acoustic piano are almost unlimited in how they strike the strings. And the way we release the key on an acoustic is also much more of an art. With digital it simply turns off even if we use sustain.  

Better digital's can be programmed for large dynamic range, it's in the touch curve setting ( not all digital pianos have a touch curve setting, they may have a switch for light medium and hard but not a true curve setting with a graph). Low end digital pianos don't do much of anything well anyway, not in terms of simulating acoustic pianos regarding touch and range especially. Also, an acoustic is capable of large dynamic range assuming a couple of things have happened.

1. The soundboard and general mechanics are of very good quality and design.

2. The high quality hammers are voiced properly, because too soft and you will have no volume and too hard you will have no low end.

I've played some acoustic pianos my digital could clobber in terms of dynamic range ! Acoustic pianos have to be decent quality and well maintained to produce consistently good dynamic range. Not to mention the player has to have the skill level to take advantage of high dynamic range or it won't matter much in either design !
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline rmbarbosa

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #26 on: October 09, 2013, 12:59:49 PM »
I`m a classical pianist and play almost all my time in a digital Roland HP 507.
With headphones, it sounds like a grand. Without headphones, sound is a bit "hard".
Impossible to play with a good legato in digitals isnt true. Legato depends upon our own technical capacity (weight of shoulders and arms, complete lack of finger tension, etc) and even with my exigent  russian school of piano, a wonderfull legato is perfectly possible in my Roland. I dont feel any diference from my Bluthner acoustic grand.
Also I can achieve all the dynamics. And the right pedal can give me a 1/4, 1/2 pedal. Left pedal isnt so good.
I dont feel diferences in key touch.

Offline nocturnetr

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #27 on: October 09, 2013, 04:50:14 PM »
Actually, Yamaha digitals are incedibly good.

Offline cabbynum

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #28 on: October 09, 2013, 05:33:26 PM »
the only yamaha digital piano that is halfway decent is the avantgrand
even then, there is almost no comparison.
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Liszt Sonata B minor
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Invocation

Offline thesixthsensemusic

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #29 on: October 09, 2013, 06:42:47 PM »
For practice any mid-range or better digital instrument is fine. The Royal Academy of Music in London even endorses the Yamaha CLP-440 as a good practice instrument to their piano students. They probably don't do that because it's not one...

I own a Yamaha CLP-430 myself, which has the same action mechanism, but regular plastic-coated keys instead of synthetic ivory (which is more comfortable).

You can't beat the sound of a well-maintained acoustic piano, but for reasons of practicality a digital instrument is unbeatable: practice all night at low volume or over headphones, hook it to your computer and use it as a MIDI keyboard, or even insert an USB stick with WAV recordings taken from a Music Minus One CD and play entire piano concerti without having to use a separate sound source for the orchestra, etc.

And, not unimportant, it will save you at least 70 quid every year for having it tuned, and a few 100 every few years for having the action or the felt on the hammer tips sorted out.


Offline pianoplunker

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #30 on: October 10, 2013, 03:08:20 AM »
Actually, Yamaha digitals are incedibly good.

Yes they are, I recently tried their Avante Grand models. Best touch  sound and feel of any digital piano I have ever tried as far as "acoustic". In fact , the $7000 USD Clavinova I also tried felt like a mere toy in comparison.

Offline pianoplunker

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #31 on: October 10, 2013, 03:15:35 AM »
For practice any mid-range or better digital instrument is fine. The Royal Academy of Music in London even endorses the Yamaha CLP-440 as a good practice instrument to their piano students. They probably don't do that because it's not one...

I own a Yamaha CLP-430 myself, which has the same action mechanism, but regular plastic-coated keys instead of synthetic ivory (which is more comfortable).

You can't beat the sound of a well-maintained acoustic piano, but for reasons of practicality a digital instrument is unbeatable: practice all night at low volume or over headphones, hook it to your computer and use it as a MIDI keyboard, or even insert an USB stick with WAV recordings taken from a Music Minus One CD and play entire piano concerti without having to use a separate sound source for the orchestra, etc.

And, not unimportant, it will save you at least 70 quid every year for having it tuned, and a few 100 every few years for having the action or the felt on the hammer tips sorted out.



As far as finances, the depreciation of the digital will probably far surpass the cost of tuning. Technology tends to make things worth far less in just a few years time.

Offline thesixthsensemusic

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #32 on: October 10, 2013, 10:34:16 PM »
As far as finances, the depreciation of the digital will probably far surpass the cost of tuning. Technology tends to make things worth far less in just a few years time.
Speaking about depreciation, how much do you think evaporates just by the instrument becoming second-hand in a decent acoustic piano? Buy a decent Petrof, Schimmel, or Yamaha upright piano and the value of a mid-range digital piano would probably be similar to, or less, than the money you lose after trading an acoustic instrument back in after a year.

Selling it yourself would get you a better price but may take months, during which you're still stuck with it, and the instrument further depreciates and also needs servicing.

Besides, I just browsed a national auction website from my country, second hand Clavinovas for example are rarely offered, mostly only old models, and they still fetch decent prices. When I bought a Petrof Model 131 12 years ago, I paid about 4 times what I got back for it 11 years later, from the same dealer. Which was also the dealer I always had it serviced with.... and my employer at the time I traded it in.

Decent acoustic instruments are widely available, and if well-serviced last a lifetime without a complete refit. Often they only need tuning and perhaps a bit of mechanical adjustment or re-felting the hammers. The touch gets lighter over the years due to wear but we used to sell a lot of very playable and very beautiful sounding instruments that are 50-60 years old.

That's not a very good business model for a product to retain value. A piano is a consumer good that is as widely traded second hand as cars are, but one with the durability of a house.

Imagine cars being so good they'd last 80 years (and car technology being only marginally improved, if at all, during the same time) there would be one BEAR market for used cars I tell ye what :D

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #33 on: October 11, 2013, 04:32:04 PM »
the only yamaha digital piano that is halfway decent is the avantgrand
even then, there is almost no comparison.

Depends how you're planning to use the Clavinova. If you're using it for practising only, you should use a headphone and then the piano sounds and behaves really, really good (as long as you have a good headphone).
If you dont want to use headphones for whatever for reason, you should use a grand clavinova and is ofcourse no match for a good accoustic grand, since the speakers face upwards and are of much better quality.
1+1=11

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #34 on: October 11, 2013, 07:31:01 PM »
Depends how you're planning to use the Clavinova. If you're using it for practising only, you should use a headphone and then the piano sounds and behaves really, really good (as long as you have a good headphone).
If you dont want to use headphones for whatever for reason, you should use a grand clavinova and is ofcourse no match for a good accoustic grand, since the speakers face upwards and are of much better quality.

Hmm,  ya decent head phones are quite realistic. Not sure how that makes up for poor action if a digital has that though.

On another note, my MP6 uses external speakers, I have it rigged to a sub and off to two monitors. It sounds really nice in stereo using XLR and TRS cables. I originally had some TR cables in the mix and couldn't get the sound right . Balanced cables really do make a difference. I also changed the reverb to a bigger hall sound and it responded well to that too. I love the thing but it has been a very long learning experience that goes on and on. It's not an instrument you just take out of the box and start playing and everything will be right there all set to go. A lot of people have that impression with digital, not sure they make that D piano yet !
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #35 on: October 12, 2013, 07:46:31 AM »
Hmm,  ya decent head phones are quite realistic. Not sure how that makes up for poor action if a digital has that though.

On another note, my MP6 uses external speakers, I have it rigged to a sub and off to two monitors. It sounds really nice in stereo using XLR and TRS cables. I originally had some TR cables in the mix and couldn't get the sound right . Balanced cables really do make a difference. I also changed the reverb to a bigger hall sound and it responded well to that too. I love the thing but it has been a very long learning experience that goes on and on. It's not an instrument you just take out of the box and start playing and everything will be right there all set to go. A lot of people have that impression with digital, not sure they make that D piano yet !

A lot of accoustic piano's have 'poor action' too, and just as accoustic ones are cheap accoustic piano's usually of worse quality than more expensive ones. Also, 'poor action' is often relative to the person; For example some Steinway models have this very small resistance point in their touche, wich i find really annoying though other people dont seem to have an issue with it.
1+1=11

Offline kingston2013

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #36 on: October 16, 2013, 09:06:28 PM »
I have tried out different types of pianos over the years and can say that there are some high end digital pianos that will sound even better than some lower end acoustic ones. You should try out digital pianos from Roland, Yamaha or Casio. You could be pretty surprised.

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #37 on: October 16, 2013, 11:08:44 PM »
A lot of accoustic piano's have 'poor action' too, and just as accoustic ones are cheap accoustic piano's usually of worse quality than more expensive ones. Also, 'poor action' is often relative to the person; For example some Steinway models have this very small resistance point in their touche, wich i find really annoying though other people dont seem to have an issue with it.

I missed this post before today. I'm not sure what you mean by resistance point in the touch. Are you referring to the down weight of the keys or short travel etc..?

One of the heaviest action pianos I've played on was a Steinway S. One of the slowest actions I've played on was my old upright, though it wasn't particularly heavy action ! Oh well. I think there are3 surprises in most brand pianos. I played a Wurlitzer console that had really decent action for an upright and nice tone for a console. A Chickering Grand stands out in my mind as being similar in action to my Henry F Miller grand. Someone else said it right, you don't know what you will get when sit down at an acoustic piano.
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline hanon_virtuoso

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #38 on: November 09, 2013, 08:46:12 AM »
Hi all, Thanks for comment and sharing knowledge  ;D

I finally end up to Kawai CN34. I love the touch and the sound, especially when used headphone. There are big diffrences i feel, compared to my yamaha Dgx 630.

Here is a video i play my Kawai CN34, maybe can help someone looking for CN34 demo  ;D


Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #39 on: November 09, 2013, 09:40:32 AM »
Hi all, Thanks for comment and sharing knowledge  ;D

I finally end up to Kawai CN34. I love the touch and the sound, especially when used headphone. There are big diffrences i feel, compared to my yamaha Dgx 630.

Here is a video i play my Kawai CN34, maybe can help someone looking for CN34 demo  ;D


Very nice and glad it comes to a happy ending for you, enjoy !
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline hanon_virtuoso

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #40 on: November 09, 2013, 12:00:26 PM »
Very nice and glad it comes to a happy ending for you, enjoy !

It's not the ending, It's the start.. lol

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #41 on: November 09, 2013, 12:22:01 PM »
It's not the ending, It's the start.. lol

I understand !!
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline jjbenjamins

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #42 on: November 11, 2013, 06:54:30 PM »
Actually, Yamaha digitals are incedibly good.

I play mostly classical music on a simple Clavinova clp320 (sonatas/sonatines of Mozart, Haydn, Kuhlau, Clementi etc)....nothing wrong.....it is the musician who performs............interpretation dynamics etc are well done at a good digital...

Best regards,
Johan B

Offline g_s_223

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #43 on: November 17, 2013, 02:53:10 AM »
In case it hasn't been mentioned, there is another option for late-night practice, which is a Midi/USB controller (semi-)weighted keyboard (with no speakers etc) linked to a PC with sound generation on the PC (or Mac). For the former, see http://www.thomann.de/gb/master_keyboards_up_to_88_keys.html and for the latter I recommend Pianoteq (https://www.pianoteq.com/). Also some good pedals are useful, e.g. http://www.cme-pro.com/proline/product-detail.php-product_id=19.htm .

Given the above, and a good sound card and headphones, one can produce an exceptional sound. Far better than typical Clavinova etc.

Offline gvfarns

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #44 on: November 25, 2013, 03:33:07 AM »
The keys on digital pianos are not levers. They are just buttons.

You push a button. You pull a lever.

That is the difference.

Silly nonsense. 

Levers can be pushed or pulled.  In both digitals and acoustics, they are pushed.  Ultimately the sound generated by a given key is a function only of the velocity of the hammer at a terminal point.  In the acoustic it is a string, in the digital it is a sensor.  There's no particular reason why there needs to be significant differences between the two, and there's quite a bit of variety in how closely digitals mimic an acoustic.  Of course, there is also a lot of variety in how acoustics respond and sound between one and another, so it's hard to say which digital is most similar to "an acoustic."

The real issue is that digitals are generally quite cheap, when compared with new acoustics.  For this reason the manufacturers cut all sorts of corners...things they can implement at some cost but think won't matter enough to their customers in the end.  Simplified mechanisms, less detailed sounds, missing resonances, etc.  When you want an acoustic and you don't have a lot of money you get a nasty old beater that can't hold a tune and has never been regulated.  The digital you might buy would be brand new but designed to be a poor imitation of a high end acoustic.  Both will give you an inferior experience but in different ways.

Spend more on digitals and you can get a decent instrument.  But it is true that they don't make any really high end digitals.  If you are spending tens of thousands of dollars, you will get an acoustic.  End of story.  But most people don't do that.  For many, the compromise offered by a good digital is better than that of an old beater acoustic.

That is why digitals outsell acoustics by a large margin, and I expect that margin to continue to grow for some time.

Offline eda2k

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #45 on: November 05, 2014, 08:52:49 AM »
Hi,

I want to buy a Digital Piano for study at home. I want the keyboard to be as similar to a grand piano as it can get. I have tested until now the Kawai CN-34 and Yamaha CVP-601. The Kawai is out of the question because the keys are very light, but I understand that they have the CA line, which uses heavier keys (wood?).

After some research on the net, I want to ask you, which action is more realistic :

From the Kawai line: RM3 Grand II action with Let-Off and Triple Sensor (Kawai CA-15)
                                  Grand Feel (GF) action with Let-Off and Triple Sensor (Kawai CA-65&95)
                                  RH3 action, 88 weighted keys, Let-Off simulation (Kawai CN-25&35)

From the Yamaha line: NVX (Natural Wood X) (Yamaha CLP-575-585)
                                     GH3X (Yamaha CLP-535)
                                     GH3 (Yamaha CLP-525)

I have played on Kawai CN-34 (RH2) and Yamaha CVP-601 (GH3), and I liked the Yamaha.

And suggestions ?

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #46 on: November 05, 2014, 09:41:20 AM »
Hi,

I want to buy a Digital Piano for study at home. I want the keyboard to be as similar to a grand piano as it can get. I have tested until now the Kawai CN-34 and Yamaha CVP-601. The Kawai is out of the question because the keys are very light, but I understand that they have the CA line, which uses heavier keys (wood?).

After some research on the net, I want to ask you, which action is more realistic :

From the Kawai line: RM3 Grand II action with Let-Off and Triple Sensor (Kawai CA-15)
                                  Grand Feel (GF) action with Let-Off and Triple Sensor (Kawai CA-65&95)
                                  RH3 action, 88 weighted keys, Let-Off simulation (Kawai CN-25&35)

From the Yamaha line: NVX (Natural Wood X) (Yamaha CLP-575-585)
                                     GH3X (Yamaha CLP-535)
                                     GH3 (Yamaha CLP-525)

I have played on Kawai CN-34 (RH2) and Yamaha CVP-601 (GH3), and I liked the Yamaha.

And suggestions ?
It comes down to a matter of preference, those are good pianos. Buy the one that pleases you most because you will play it not us !! it's about what you like, I don't think any of those pianos would treat you badly unless you bought one you didn't care for.

What I have done is downloaded the virtual piano software Pianoteq ( running through the MIDI port of the MP6) and that just absolutely upped everything about my MP6. Now all my internal piano sounds , some of which I had really liked, suddenly sound thin. Wow, talk about having a concert grand in your living room, not one but many different ones, powerful ones, mellow ones etc etc. Of course it's all run through external sound too ( MP6 has no on board speakers). You might ask, what does this have to do with action since that is the nature of the thread. I would answer everything, because of the velocity curves ! In digital, key weight is one thing but how it is digitally implemented is another. This is why I often tell people to try out pianos of all makes and models but don't forget to not turn them on to get a mechanical feel for the keys themselves.
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline bronnestam

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #47 on: November 05, 2014, 01:58:28 PM »
I also bought Pianoteq two years ago, as an addition to my Yamaha CLP 465GP. Although I am satisfied with the original instrument, I thought Pianoteq was a good bargain. It was also interesting to discover how the different sound experience seemed to have an effect on the touch itself - of course it was just an illusion, but therefore interesting.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #48 on: November 05, 2014, 02:34:28 PM »
1.  Most of the piano we listen to is already digital, on CD.  It may have started out acoustic, but by the time it reaches our ears it has been digitized, recorded, and played through speakers.  Rarely do we complain about the quality.

2.  There has been a performance of one of the Brahms done in MIDI - prerecorded MIDI, but carefully released a note at a time by the performer, giving true control over expression, in a concert hall to an audience. 
Tim

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Digital piano for classical music?
«Reply #49 on: November 05, 2014, 03:47:24 PM »
I also bought Pianoteq two years ago, as an addition to my Yamaha CLP 465GP. Although I am satisfied with the original instrument, I thought Pianoteq was a good bargain. It was also interesting to discover how the different sound experience seemed to have an effect on the touch itself - of course it was just an illusion, but therefore interesting.

I can't agree with it being 100 illusion bronnestam ( not that you said that). The touch on my piano is different in the sense that I touch it differently because it responds differently in Pianoteq. It responds much more realistically ( remember I also own an acoustic grand though I rarely play it these days). But yes the weight of the keys remains the same. I find it to be quite an amazing program. I tried Pianissimo as well, super latency. I got it much better with a new driver but then the sounds really aren't that much better than my Kawai is anyway.

I bought Pianoteq not so much for my Kawai though, but because of some old keyboards I have to deal with ( churches) that are MIDI but not used that way. I set it up, ran the trial on my Kawai  initially and have purchased it now. I think I'll stick with it even at home. I can't wait to bring my laptop to the churches and see how that goes. I may miss the chorus and instruments though. On the Kawai I can run one channel in MIDI out to Pianoteq and run the other three direct to my sound system. Works great. my sub is my distribution box, it has several types In ports. So the keyboard is still attached to that and now ,my laptop without using an interface. In church is another matter unless I bring my sub along. It remains to be seen how this is going to go !!
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.