Sight Reading tips please :(

[vincentbiasa]

Yeah i need tips how to improve my sight reading skill. I have read some tips that said we need to focus on the rhythm first. After that, you can practice the pitch reading (sorry if i mistaken the term :p). After i learned some of the rhythm (with apps and video on www.youtube.com) and the pitch reading, i began to have confidence that i, at least can read an easy music. But no... Everytime i read the music, i cannot concentrate well because i need to divided my focus between the rhythm and also pitch reading. It frustrated me a lot Any tips for me guys?

[swagmaster420x]

sometimes, the answer is to suck it up and keep practicing even though it's hard. im not sure thats the solution tho, cuz im bad at sightreading

just make an ACTIVE effort to read ahead, like if ur playing one measure try to read ahead onto the next.

[j_menz]

im not sure thats the solution tho, cuz im bad at sightreading

Oh goody. The blind leading the blind. 

@vincentbiasa

In order to offer useful advice, we need to know a bit more. How long have you been playing? What sort of stuff do you play (grade level, or list a few sample pieces)? Do you have a teacher? What sort of stuff are you trying to sightread?

[vincentbiasa]

i have played piano for 1 year. I only played a few example pieces, such as Ode To Joy (the short version). Yes i have a piano teacher, but it's kinda bad at teaching the music lesson ==" I'm trying to sight read any kind a pop music. Btw, i'm learning sight read from an apps that created random notes and rhythm for us to play (such as sightreadingfactory etc).

[j_menz]

Random notes and rhythms are actually pretty difficult to sightread, and not much use in the long run anyway. You'd be much better off trying to read actual music.

Pop songs off the shelf are probably too hard for you to read at present, and probably even above your playing abilities. They also often have some rhythmic difficulties, and pop is not always played strictly as it is written.

A good sightreader can generally read stuff (so that it sounds OK) that is ~2 grades below what they can play after serious practice.

After only a year of playing, that means it will still have to be pretty simple. In my day (don't ask) there used to be "easy piano" arrangements of pop songs. You should have a look for those - they'll be more in line with what you should be able to do at present. And, they'll give you plenty to practice your reading on, so that as your general playing improves, your sightreading keeps pace.

[awesom_o]

Sight-reading isn't a skill that you can really improve.

The level at which you can sightread will be determined by your overall playing level and ability.

[outin]

Sight-reading isn't a skill that you can really improve.

The level at which you can sightread will be determined by your overall playing level and ability.

I beg to differ, because of my own experience. If it's the reading part that is the main problem, regular practice really can improve the skill.

It is true of course that after I have figured out from the page what I should play, I will be limited by my playing skills.

[j_menz]

Sight-reading isn't a skill that you can really improve.

The level at which you can sightread will be determined by your overall playing level and ability.

Your overall playing level and ability certainly sets the upper limit of your sightreading ability, but there are plenty of people out there whose sightreading is very much below that.

It is a skill, and practicing it will make it better. I suspect you picked it up along the way just by reading a lot outside the pieces you were being taught. That's how I picked it up. Some people don't, mostly because they only play their set pieces.

[awesom_o]

I beg to differ, because of my own experience.

You have experience? How much experience??

[outin]

You have experience? How much experience??

I have spend the last 3 months deliberately trying to improve my sight reading by practicing and I would say I've gone from not being able to sight read anything to being able to sight read most easy pieces. My playing skills have not improved that much during this 3 months.

[awesom_o]

Your overall playing level and ability certainly sets the upper limit of your sightreading ability, but there are plenty of people out there whose sightreading is very much below that.

I would argue that if your 'playing ability' is THAT much higher than your sight-reading ability is, than your OVERALL playing ability is still in fact very low... much lower than you think it is.

Put yourself into a real-life musical situation with other players involved and some chamber music in front of you. You'll either come off sounding great, or you'll come off sounding pretty rough.

Anyway, my best advice for the OP is to try not to look down at the hands and just keep the eye on the page. If your technique is sound, it should help you to do this, rather than hinder the process.

[outin]

Anyway, my best advice for the OP is to try not to look down at the hands and just keep the eye on the page. If your technique is sound, it should help you to do this, rather than hinder the process.

Do you really think not looking at the hands is the main issue with sight reading? I never had much trouble with that, I just could not figure out what was written on the page...

[awesom_o]

I would say I've gone from not being able to sight read anything to being able to sight read most easy pieces. My playing skills have not improved that much during this 3 months.

This is a bit like a person saying

'I've spent the last 3 months working out and eating properly. I went from not being able to do  
a single push-up to being able to do 10. My physique has not changed that much during those three months'

It just doesn't make logical sense.

[j_menz]

I would argue that if your 'playing ability' is THAT much higher than your sight-reading ability is, than your OVERALL playing ability is still in fact very low... much lower than you think it is.

Josef Hoffman appears to be Exhibit A against you.

Ensemble playing is a great way to improve one's sightreading, although at the OP's stage it seems a little premature.

Do not assume that everyone has had the same development path that you have had. Some people simply do not sightread much, and so are poor at it.

[outin]

This is a bit like a person saying

'I've spent the last 3 months working out and eating properly. I went from not being able to do  
a single push-up to being able to do 10. My physique has not changed that much during those three months'

It just doesn't make logical sense.

You seem to ignore the fact that one can play rather well by memorizing everything, even if one needs to spend 5 minutes deciphering every single measure first.

Your logic only makes sense if you consider overall playing level and ability to include the ability to read scores. How about those pianists that cannot read scores at all?

[awesom_o]

Do not assume that everyone has had the same development path that you have had.

I don't. I hated sight-reading for the first 15 years I played piano. I never worked on it,  and just thought I could memorize everything I wanted to learn. It took me months and months to learn the big pieces I was playing.

[awesom_o]

You seem to ignore the fact that one can play rather well by memorizing everything, even if one needs to spend 5 minutes deciphering every single measure first.

Think about it this way:

When you memorize something..... are you REALLY memorizing the music itself? Or are you just memorizing how YOU happen to play it?

[j_menz]

I don't. I hated sight-reading for the first 15 years I played piano. I never worked on it,  and just thought I could memorize everything I wanted to learn. It took me months and months to learn the big pieces I was playing.

Then you practiced, and thereby improved your sightreading. You no doubt improved your overall skillset at the same time, as this is a happy side-effect.

[outin]

Think about it this way:

When you memorize something..... are you REALLY memorize the music itself? Or are you just memorize how YOU happen to play it?

Let me think...

I usually have the music in my head already when I start. Unlike children who start playing I have the burden of having heard quite a large portion of the piano literature before played by good pianists. What I need to do is figure out how to get what's in my head out from the piano. I read the score to understand how that music is created with the piano, use it as a manual of details. It's a combination of learning by ear and using the score I guess.
 
So most often what I am memorizing are the movements I need to play the music. And unfortunately I can only memorize the movements the way I am able to do them. It's always a challenge to make that match with what's playing in my head. That's where I need my teacher's help.

If I really don't know the piece before I need to decide how the piece should sound from the score. To decide how a piece should sound it is really helpful to be able to sight read fluently. Otherwise it's a long process of trial and error to put the whole thing together to a coherent whole.

A good sight reader probably benefits from memorizing the actual score visually.

Maybe what you are talking about when you say "overall playing level and ability" you refer to being a more or less competent musician. I do agree that being able to sight read well is a part of that competence.

[awesom_o]

My biggest sight-reading tip, is to never, ever practice a piece without having the music in front of you!


Is extremely useful to read pieces through from beginning to end at a very slow tempo. Often ludicrously slow. As slow as you need to go to be able to get from the beginning of the piece to the end without interruption in your concentration.

The important thing is to maintain the correct rhythmic relationship of all of the notes to each other, no matter how slow you are going, and to have good control of the tone as well. I always do this without pedal. No matter what repertoire. You ALWAYS need to count when reading. You need to know where the beats in the bar lie.

Learning to count properly when sight-reading is one of the biggest challenges.

[outin]

Is extremely useful to read pieces through from beginning to end at a very slow tempo. Often ludicrously slow. As slow as you need to go to be able to get from the beginning of the piece to the end without interruption in your concentration.

But isn't this the same as practicing sight reading? This is exactly what I have been doing to improve my sight reading...

[j_menz]

You ALWAYS need to count when reading. You need to know where the beats in the bar lie.

Learning to count properly when sight-reading is one of the biggest challenges.

What on earth for? You should be able to read the rhythm off the page most of the time.

When in doubt, count (of course) but as you get better at reading, that should become rarer.

[awesom_o]

What on earth for? You should be able to read the rhythm off the page most of the time.

I meant in your head.

[j_menz]

I meant in your head.

I don't see that that changes matters.

There is a difference between counting and playing in time with that count, and just playing a rhythm. Ideally, one should be doing the latter.

[awesom_o]

By counting inside my head as I play, my eye can scoop up a lot of information about the music that I'm about to play, a bar ahead of the sound that's coming out of the piano.

Since my hands are so used to playing in perfect time to the count of my inner voice, they can seamlessly integrate the new material my eye just scooped up with the stuff that came before.

  That's why I count. It's how I keep my eye ahead of the sound.

It's kind of difficult to explain in words. You know.... talking about music is like dancing about architecture.

[j_menz]

Interesting. I find it a mild distraction, and really only do it in slow, sparse pieces, or where my ears tell me I've stuffed reading the rhythm.

Out of curiosity, how do you count with swung rhythms, or a waltz with a Viennese lilt?  Do you swing/lilt the count? Or, indeed, with complex polyrhythms? do you just count one part?

[awesom_o]

You develop a feel for certain styles of music, I guess. That's the point of counting. It helps you develop your feel for certain styles.

Poly-rhythms you just have to know cold. There are lots of useful tricks for them.

[swagmaster420x]

i kind of agree with both awesome o and jmenz, like theres some rhythms i play instinctively and i can get it right, but in order for me to play all rhythms accurately i need to count the beats in my head and when i do that i end up confusing myself on rhythms i would normally play right

and fck poly rhythsm, usually i end up playing the song at a speed where it's kinda negligible

or if it's like 8vs 3 ill try to play each 3 note for 8/3 of the 8 notes, if u get what im saying
and then practice rly slow like that

[drazh]

May be HS is good to start sight reading.
because other instument with single line note music sheet are pretty good sight reader.

[awesom_o]

because other instument with single line note music sheet are pretty good sight reader.

Of course! Playing the piano is learning to play two instruments simultaneously, not one.

Each hand can function independently from the other!!

[drazh]

So why not we learn HS first then HT  just like learning dificult pieces

[awesom_o]

So why not we learn HS first then HT  just like learning dificult pieces

Because it's the multitasking of having both hands playing simultaneously  that is too much for your brain to handle.

Playing one part on its own is far too simple when you have all of your mental resources available to concentrate on the task.

One way you kick it up a notch is by practicing the LH alone, while singing the RH melody out loud with your voice.

[drazh]

If HS is simple for you then HT is reasonable.But if one can not play right hand sight reading why should try  HT

[louispodesta]

Oh goody. The blind leading the blind. 

@vincentbiasa

In order to offer useful advice, we need to know a bit more. How long have you been playing? What sort of stuff do you play (grade level, or list a few sample pieces)? Do you have a teacher? What sort of stuff are you trying to sightread?

Per his answer of "I have been playing for one year,": why is anyone spending their time on advising this post?

It took me 50 years to figure out a method to teach myself how to read, and it is a great method.  But, am I going to spend this amount of pain and grief on someone who just started playing the piano, and most likely one year from now will have moved onto the guitar?

Oh, I can just hear the socialist/relativist rants now.  If he asked you how to wash his car, would you respond?

[awesom_o]

It took me 50 years to figure out a method to teach myself how to read, and it is a great method. 

My God.... the method  took you 50 years and yet you think it's a good method?

Sound like a horribly slow and indirect method to me...

[pianoplunker]

Yeah i need tips how to improve my sight reading skill. I have read some tips that said we need to focus on the rhythm first. After that, you can practice the pitch reading (sorry if i mistaken the term :p). After i learned some of the rhythm (with apps and video on www.youtube.com) and the pitch reading, i began to have confidence that i, at least can read an easy music. But no... Everytime i read the music, i cannot concentrate well because i need to divided my focus between the rhythm and also pitch reading. It frustrated me a lot Any tips for me guys?

I am no great site reader but have improved some when I practiced site reading in a couple of ways. The ryhthm is critical but should not be seen as something different than the notes, or pitch as you say. If notes overwhelm then practice site reading just the rhythm you can do it away from the piano, just tap on something while reading the rhythm. Another way of practicing is to practice only short lines, maybe just one bar for now. Then stop. Move to another bar, sight read it, then stop. Then when you are ready . sightread two bars, then stop. Breath, read two more bars.  the rhythm has to be accurate. The notes can be wrong and the piece can still be played. If you blow the rhythm, you crash - even if the notes were correct. Just dont think site-reading is about reading two different things. It is all the same piece of music.   

[awesom_o]

I am no great site reader but have improved some when I practiced site reading in a couple of ways. The ryhthm is critical but should not be seen as something different than the notes, or pitch as you say. If notes overwhelm then practice site reading just the rhythm you can do it away from the piano, just tap on something while reading the rhythm. Another way of practicing is to practice only short lines, maybe just one bar for now. Then stop. Move to another bar, sight read it, then stop. Then when you are ready . sightread two bars, then stop. Breath, read two more bars.  the rhythm has to be accurate. The notes can be wrong and the piece can still be played. If you blow the rhythm, you crash - even if the notes were correct. Just dont think site-reading is about reading two different things. It is all the same piece of music.   

Fantastic post!

[pianoplunker]

sometimes, the answer is to suck it up and keep practicing even though it's hard. im not sure thats the solution tho, cuz im bad at sightreading

just make an ACTIVE effort to read ahead, like if ur playing one measure try to read ahead onto the next.

I think you may be on the mark. Several very good sight readers I have talked to have said the same thing : You read ahead, you dont look at the keys, you keep in rhythm, and dont stop to re-hash. Easier said than done but it can be practiced. At least that is what some have told me about sight reading. To me it is like a magical skill I wish I could grasp entirely.

[louispodesta]

My God.... the method  took you 50 years and yet you think it's a good method?

Sound like a horribly slow and indirect method to me...

It didn't take me 50 years to learn how to read, but it took me 50 years to realize that most of what was taught to me was BS.  And, that included being taught by the top collaboratiave pianist/professor in the world, Dr. Jean Barr of Eastman.

If someone, who is an adult and has been unable to learn how to read wants to share in my method, which takes no more than two years, then I will be glad to help.  It is easy, it is cheap, and it gets the job done.

[nyiregyhazi]

It didn't take me 50 years to learn how to read, but it took me 50 years to realize that most of what was taught to me was BS.  And, that included being taught by the top collaboratiave pianist/professor in the world, Dr. Jean Barr of Eastman.

If someone, who is an adult and has been unable to learn how to read wants to share in my method, which takes no more than two years, then I will be glad to help.  It is easy, it is cheap, and it gets the job done.

congratulations on having been taught by the finest accompanist and professor in the world. Funny that I've never heard of her. I'm sure she's at least highly accomplished but I feel sorry for the poor woman for getting made to look foolish by having you describe her in such ludicrously inflated terms. I don't even understand what your goal is. You can't both brag about having been taught by the top professor in the world and say they taught you bullshit. Are you trying to claim credit for yourself by association to the elite or to rubbish her? You can't have both.

If you have a method then don't allude to it. Divulge it.

[louispodesta]

congratulations on having been taught by the finest accompanist and professor in the world. Funny that I've never heard of her. I'm sure she's at least highly accomplished but I feel sorry for the poor woman for getting made to look foolish by having you describe her in such ludicrously inflated terms. I don't even understand what your goal is. You can't both brag about having been taught by the top professor in the world and say they taught you bullshit. Are you trying to claim credit for yourself by association to the elite or to rubbish her? You can't have both.

If you have a method then don't allude to it. Divulge it.

Here is the link to her faculty webpage.https://www.esm.rochester.edu/faculty/barr_jean/

She taught sight reading at the University of Texas when I was there, and I learned nothing.  What I later discovered on my own is that basic sight reading is no different than learning how to type.

Like I said, when an adult, who has had the same difficulties I had learning how to read, makes the request, then I will share the method.  You, do not even remotely fall into that category.

[nyiregyhazi]

Here is the link to her faculty webpage.https://www.esm.rochester.edu/faculty/barr_jean/

She taught sight reading at the University of Texas when I was there, and I learned nothing.  What I later discovered on my own is that basic sight reading is no different than learning how to type.

Like I said, when an adult, who has had the same difficulties I had learning how to read, makes the request, then I will share the method.  You, do not even remotely fall into that category.

the opening post of the thread already made the request. Either give the method or don't, but posts alluding to it are quite pointless. What would happen to the forum if everyone started posting answers that say "I know an answer but I won't post it unless you first repeat the question that you already asked"? What's the point in that?

[louispodesta]

the opening post of the thread already made the request. Either give the method or don't, but posts alluding to it are quite pointless. What would happen to the forum if everyone started posting answers that say "I know an answer but I won't post it unless you first repeat the question that you already asked"? What's the point in that?

The point is that you, sir, have made yourself a self-appointed authority, per this website ("what would happen to this forum if ...").  This is not your forum or your website!

I, sir, am an empiricist by philosophy, who will, with one rare exception, not participate in your diatribe.

For those adults out there who have sight reading problems as it relates to learning the notes for a desired repertoire, please contact me, outside this post.  And, I will be glad to offer anything that might help.

[vincentbiasa]

Chill down guys. Okay so i have read all of the tips you guys gave me and the most frequent tips to sight read that posted is "Played the rhythm correctly". Now here another question. How can we learn to play the rhythm correctly? Any tips how doing that? Do i need to buy a book full of the rhythm exercises?
Oh yeah, btw thanks for all the tips you guys gave me I appreciated all of your helps.

[outin]

Chill down guys. Okay so i have read all of the tips you guys gave me and the most frequent tips to sight read that posted is "Played the rhythm correctly". Now here another question. How can we learn to play the rhythm correctly? Any tips how doing that? Do i need to buy a book full of the rhythm exercises?

I assume you do already know how to interpret the rhythmic markings correctly.
What I now try to remember to do is count a little bit in my head before and after starting until it gets automatic. I noticed at some point that counting actually helps me concentrate what's written on the score...I guess it calms down some parts of my overly active brain.

[awesom_o]

[quote author=vincentbiasa link=topic=52514.msg569792#msg569792 date=1379308234
 How can we learn to play the rhythm correctly? Any tips how doing that? Do i need to buy a book full of the rhythm exercises?

[/quote]

No!

You need to learn to count the beats out loud and play the notes at the same time!

[outin]

You need to learn to count the beats out loud and play the notes at the same time!

I have tried counting out loud, but it just doesn't work out well... When I make sounds I often end up singing the counts in pitch...so it's safer to just do it in my head...

[dima_76557]

You need to learn to count the beats out loud and play the notes at the same time!

It's that "simple", yes. Maybe it's time for a sticky post about this subject?

Ultimately, it's multi-tasking with the following components:
1) Good decoding skills (you can develop those on the sofa, including the counting part). Pattern recognition is crucial, so you don't have to process all elements deliberately.
2) Perfect independence of the hands and an ability to move without the brain interfering, a.k.a. "technique";
3) An excellent feel for the topography of your instrument (also part of "technique"), so you can use your eyes for reading only.

[j_menz]

What I later discovered on my own is that basic sight reading is no different than learning how to type.

 

I can think of one similarity, and at least ten (significant) differences).

[pianoplunker]

It's that "simple", yes. Maybe it's time for a sticky post about this subject?

Ultimately, it's multi-tasking with the following components:
1) Good decoding skills (you can develop those on the sofa, including the counting part). Pattern recognition is crucial, so you don't have to process all elements deliberately.
2) Perfect independence of the hands and an ability to move without the brain interfering, a.k.a. "technique";
3) An excellent feel for the topography of your instrument (also part of "technique"), so you can use your eyes for reading only.

I agree with everything you write, except it is not multi-tasking. Playing an instrument is a singular, linear task.