Chopin Ballade No. 3 vs Barcarolle

[mrudall]

I want to learn my first big Chopin piece and I think I've narrowed it down to these two. Any advice for which one to pick?

[classicalnhiphop]

ballades easier i think

[chapplin]

Both extremely hard. Ballade is not the most technically demanding piece. But any of these pieces will put extremely high expectations on you when performing. It will be required of you the be microscopic with details. But have very fun!

[jorley]

Have you considered playing the first ballade, the one in G minor? It's easier than both the Barcarolle and the third ballade I think, and it's very nice! Watch out for the presto con fuoco though, that part is hard!

[mrudall]

Yeah I have played some of it but it's too hard for me right now. I don't think the third is as hard but I guess I will see!

[awesom_o]

Barcarolle will eat you for breakfast! Extremely technically and musically challenging.

[kitty on the keys]

I must disgree----the 1st Ballade is more demanding than the 3rd.

Kitty on the Keys

[awesom_o]

-the 1st Ballade is more demanding than the 3rd.

[/quote

I would agree with that.

[jorley]

Do not agree; tell me in what way it's harder? There are only two parts that I would consider really difficult technically in the first ballade; the scherzando and the coda. The scherzando part still isn't THAT hard, it's just scales and arpeggios that actually fit the hands pretty well. The jumps in the left hand are a problem, but nothing that cannot be fixed with practice. As for the Coda, same here. Easy to play slow, hard to play fast, but with patient practice, it will turn out to be like learning to ride a bike, plus it fits the hand really well. If you shape the melody of the coda by bringing out the voices, it will turn out to be even easier, as you can take short "rests" on the melody notes without the ear even noticing it.

Comparing with the Ballade 3: The part with broken chords/octaves which is quite similar to the coda in the first ballade is much more awkward in my opinion than the broken cords in the first ballade, mainly because the chords are in triads. And that's not all. The tremolos right after in the left hand are VERY hard to make sound right, and the big chords near the end are also very hard to make sound good. The third ballade is in general more contrapuntal, more things happens at the same time, the piece is just harder to make right musically... And the difficulties I mentioned are just a few of the ones represented in the piece, I have not yet said anything about the scales...

[awesom_o]

The opening page of the G minor Ballade is very technically difficult!

The coda itself is tricky, but there are harder spots in the main body of the piece itself.
For example, the little spot at 1:53-1:57 in this video:

I'm guessing you can't make that part sound very good yet Listen to how Michelangeli's tone sparkles there. Pure magic.

My guess is, if those left hand jumps in the scherzando are causing you problems now, all the practice in the world won't make those problems go away.

Understanding why you are having those problems, and taking the correct steps to ensure that they do not happen again is quite different from just practicing them over and over again and hoping they'll get better.

[jorley]

So, you are one of those!

Well the opening page of the Ballade 3 is VERY difficult technically. To not destroy the piece by making it musically boring and standing still by not playing the opening pages colorful enough is, with your way of thinking, difficult beyond imagination!

Try playing the octaves in the beginning well, I guess you are not doing that yet Try playing those tremolos after the climax well, I guess you can't yet... And try playing the part in this video from at 1:00 - 1:12, I guess it's too hard for you:

[mrudall]

So, you are one of those!

Well the opening page of the Ballade 3 is VERY difficult technically. To not destroy the piece by making it musically boring and standing still by not playing the opening pages colorful enough is, with your way of thinking, difficult beyond imagination!

Try playing the octaves in the beginning well, I guess you are not doing that yet Try playing those tremolos after the climax well, I guess you can't yet... And try playing the part in this video from at 1:00 - 1:12, I guess it's too hard for you:

Everything you mentioned is not challenging for me to play well.

[kitty on the keys]

I see that there will be two opinions to these 2 Ballades.  ALL the Ballades have difficult openings....all have voicings in each hand.....the octave demands are more in the 1st than the 3rd; the passgage playing falls nicely in the 3rd.....some tricky hand postions in the first; the leaps are easier in the third...the 1st you better work carefully; many passages in the 3rd can be divided between the hands.
     There is no right or wrong opinion with these works. If you find one more easier than the other fine, the main thing is that we play the music to the best of our ability. The average listener does not know which one is harder or easier......they just like the music.

Kitty on the Keys

[awesom_o]

So, you are one of those!

Well the opening page of the Ballade 3 is VERY difficult technically. To not destroy the piece by making it musically boring and standing still by not playing the opening pages colorful enough is, with your way of thinking, difficult beyond imagination!

Try playing the octaves in the beginning well, I guess you are not doing that yet Try playing those tremolos after the climax well, I guess you can't yet... And try playing the part in this video from at 1:00 - 1:12, I guess it's too hard for you:

Actually, I played all Four Ballades in my first ever solo recital which was..... seven years ago. And I've recorded and concertized with them all many times since then.   So I know them all quite well, I'm afraid.

The opening pages of all 4 contain extremely complex technical and musical difficulties.

Easily as challenging as the codas, the openings are, if not significantly more so. In fact, since most students spend quite a bit of time banging away at the codas and never perfecting the opening, I'd say the opening pages of all four are probably the most difficult spots.

 

[blazekenny]

I actually agree with Jorley that the 3rd is much harder than the first. Awesom_o, if you recorded it many times, I would like to hear your recording of the 3rd please. I havent played the 4th yet, but I found 3rd many times harder than 1st and 2nd.

[kitty on the keys]

Thank you awesom_o! Sometimes it takes a person whose has leanred, recorded, and performedall 4 Ballades, to share their insight on what they have experienced in learning these wonderful gems of the piano literature.
   I agree, the openings of all 4 are very difficult!

Thank YOU!

Kitty on the Keys

[awesom_o]

I actually agree with Jorley that the 3rd is much harder than the first. Awesom_o, if you recorded it many times, I would like to hear your recording of the 3rd please. I havent played the 4th yet, but I found 3rd many times harder than 1st and 2nd.

Aren't you the fellow who said I played the LH of the op. 10/1 with absolutely no melody?

(I thought I actually played it with rather a lot of melody!)

[kitty on the keys]

Awesom_o, that was NOT me who sad that?

Kitty on the Keys

[awesom_o]

I know. I met an old friend of mine today who has been studying audio engineering and has some decent gear.  I've got the Steinway D's.... so hopefully it is only a few months before I can get some more recordings out.

I'd love to get the Ballades out and available to the general public-they're such fine works.

I've also played the Barcarolle for many years and it's one of my all-time favourites. 

I've got quite a few Chopin recording projects on the go-I'd like to record the complete Polonaises and Waltzes, but that could take a while. I've worked on them all, but they're just never where you want them to be, and that's not really where you want to be at with stuff when you record it.

[chicoscalco]

I always have this feeling that people underestimate Chopin's Barcarolle...

[chopin2015]

OMG the Barcarolle!!!

The 3rd ballade is very easy, compared to the other 3. BUT, it is a very beautiful, happy piece! the coda section with the skipping triads is kind of fun and silly. I really like the way Cortot makes is sound like someone is whistling in 16th notes. lol
The last 2 pages are such a relief of emotion, where you danced along the whole ballade, kept stretching the tuning up higher near the end, and yet more, some ascending octave chords (dunno what to call them, you know...the 3rd/octave deals?) and you keep accelerating! then, you are finally there, and you keep going up and up...and near the end, you start descending...then you ascend again (i mean pitch)! and then, the really pretty part comes in again, whistling along, and ends the piece by descending, but upbeat. XD

I think it is my favorite Ballade, honestly. It is an amazing piece of music.

The Barcarolle? Tooo friggin difficult.

What about the Scherzos or maybe an impromptu? The first impromptu is really nice and pretty easy. The fantasy in F...is also a large piece, and really difficult, from how it appears to the eye.

[nanabush]

They're both in the same playing field.  I'm sure if you can play one of them well, then you could likely work on the other.

The third Ballade, when compared to the 4th, may seem 'easy'.  There are still some parts in it that still require some work.  The Barcarolle has a few more challenging bits, and the technical stuff in it reminds me of his Nocturne Op.27 #2 (quirky thirds and sixths in a lot of the passagework).  I find that both pieces fit the hand well though...

Don't judge them purely based on the surface though... which one resonates more with you?  You'll hear a lot of people say 'Ballade 3 is EASY' or 'it's not as good as the 4th...'  but if you ENJOY the piece, then just go and play it haha.

[arungargstl]

These responses HAHAH.

I think the Ballade's difficulty is subject to one's strength. I find the Ballade No. 3 to be harder than No. 1. The counterpoint (FROM THE VERY FIRST BAR) is much more mature, and requires more virtuosic control of the instrument. For me, controlling voicing and contrapuntal structure is much harder than the general homophonic nature of the first in the set. Plus, the Climax and Coda are pretty awkward in 3. The Coda of one is less dense, and fits nicely into my average sized hands.

Now, the Barcarolle is another beast. Its Contrapuntal nature is Thick and dense, requiring both physical and aural control. It is definitely NOT a starter Chopin piece. In addition to its technical challenges (awkward double thirds and sixths in a strange key, HUGE octave requirements, and great filagree work) its structure and texture are more advanced than those of the Ballade.

I would say the third Ballade is a good piece to start with. It will introduce you to Contrapuntal Chopin, and will develop your ability to listen and feel this texture from the get go (it will help with the Sonata, Fourth ballade, Barcarolle, and Polonaise Fantasie).

Good Luck

[chrisbutch]

Opinions about the technical difficulty of the Ballade 1 coda have always been divided, and it does seem to be one of those passages (more common than didactic theoreticians of technique would have us believe) where the variability between the hand physiology of different pianists has a significant impact. Vladimir Ashkenazy, no less, has said as much, and that he for one always struggled with it (but then Ashkenazy is more candid about his imperfections than most pianists).

Also interesting that the OP narrowed the choice down to Ballade 3 and Barcarolle, since Jim Samson examines the connections between these two in his impressive study of Chopin's work (OUP).

Incidentally, for those who haven't come across it, the editor of The Guardian, Alan Rusbridger, has recently published an entertaining account of his bet with himself to master Ballade 1 to performance standard within a year - in which he succeeded, concurrently with managing, inter alia, the fallout from The Guardian's release of the Snowden intelligence leaks:


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Play-Again-Amateur-Against-Impossible/dp/0224093770/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1387299853&sr=1-1&keywords=rusbridger#reader_0224093770

[chopin4life]

A few months ago I faced exactly the same dilemma and I went for the ballad..
In my opinion the barcarolle demands such a technical and musical finesse.. The ballad as well but it is slightly easier though.
There is only one really difficult spot (technically) and that is the big climax near the end (only about 15 bars).
Go for it! 

Chopin4life

[yogibear07]

 >:(I'm in the same boat: want to learn my 1st "big " Chopin piece as well. I've played the following in public/ masterclass/ orchestra.Chopin Romanze concerto #1, Fantasy Impromptu,Nocturne op 27#2,op60 #2 to name a few pieces .also studied Beethoven  op 10 #1 Ravel Sonatine... What do you guys think? I'm afraid of the double trill in the Barcarolle and am considering Ballade #3, or the Berceucse...opinions please. Thanks

[chopin4life]

 I've played the following in public/ masterclass/ orchestra.Chopin Romanze concerto #1, Fantasy Impromptu,Nocturne op 27#2,op60 #2 to name a few pieces.
[/quote]

Op 60 is the barcarolle..

As I Said I would go for the ballade or why don't you try the heroic polonaise.. Or a scherzo

[yogibear07]

I'm strongly considering the Ballade#3. Hinson and others say it's the easiest of the 4 but they're all hard,I realize. I'm not much of a scherzo or polonaise fan- seems like you have to have big hands for the polonaises. I actually did bflat minor scherzo in my 20s ( almost 40 years ago!) thanks for your reply

[yogibear07]

Actually there is a nocturne Op 60#2 in E major that I've played,very contrapuntal Chopin and lots of Lh scales,not quite as extensive as the ballades though.The barcarolle Is op.60 in f# major(sigh) love it but the double trill keeps me from learning it...

[michaeljames]

I would definitely go with the Trois Ballade.  I have also studied Barcarolle, but I, personally, never liked it. (Personal preference, admittedly).

For some reason, I found the Ballade fairly easy...with the exception of the middle section (changes from A flat to C# minor) where the left hand gets REALLY busy.  But that section doesn't last very long, so once it was in my hands it was fine.

My coach at the time thought the second to the last page was the hardest part of the piece, but it was no problem at all for me. 

I find it interesting how different all of our technical strengths/weaknesses can be.  I, too, thought the first Ballade was more difficult than the third...but that's also because of my strengths/weaknesses.