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Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :) (Read 4651 times)

Offline dcstudio

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Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
« on: September 13, 2013, 07:42:16 PM »
I was musically abused.   Truly.   My mother abused me in many ways but one of the most devastating to me were her lies about how well I played.  She forced me to accept as a child--that in order for something to be true--she had to verify it.   I would slave away and practice and try to play to her standards which I never seemed to achieve.  It never occurred to me that she had no basis or experience on which to judge me--or that my teachers and everyone else seemed to disagree--I thought she had to tell me I was good for it to be true.  She never once in all my life has told me I could play well.    My younger sister--a low brass player--is considered the musician in the family and received the support that took her to an ivy league advanced degree.  I was the accompanist slave...I truly believed for years that the only person who would hire me were my mother and my sister.  They convinced me that I just didn't play classical music very well but I could get paid a few dollars for accompanying mother's voice students.   She would pick and choose her students and award them to other accompanists and leave me what was left.   Of course, should she wish for one of her students to sing a new song--unavailable in any arrangement--I was called over to transcribe,transpose, and record the piece to mother's pc...for which I received nominal fees.  Of course if one of her voice students wished to take piano lessons--mother always had another "better match" teacher for them.   I have 20 years of teaching experience...   My sister called me once to tell me she had to transcribe and arrange a Willy Nelson song and could I come help because "I could do it faster"-she would not say, of course, that it was because I could do something she couldn't..  I raced right over and had it down in about 15 minutes....the next day she paid me $40--to clean her house..lol.    I have a youtube account with 1.6 million hits--and I let them convince me I couldn't be a musician without them...  I have since moved 3 states away--and it is amazing how successful I have become just playing locally..  lol.

CTrzg



watch out for this teachers....  I have seen this happen to others.   self-centered mother's give off big red flags.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Musical child abuse
«Reply #1 on: September 13, 2013, 10:38:41 PM »
I'm sorry to hear you had it so bad.

Pick yourself up off the ground and become a virtuoso. Everybody loves a virtuoso.

Let me know if you have any questions. I'll do what I can to help you grow.


Offline dcstudio

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Re: Musical child abuse--to virtuoso pianist
«Reply #2 on: September 14, 2013, 06:57:09 PM »
this is me... in my katrina cottage in Mississippi
playing the 3rd mvmt of the Moonlight on my brand new digital piano.  I am speaking out against the abuse against me and the current abuse against my niece.  

My mother always told me classical music was better played by my sister--so I learned jazz and improv which truly seemed to anger them...lol.   I had no idea why at the time.  

anyway...would appreciate your thoughts...  positive or negative.   God did bless me with some decent teachers and I did make it through 3 years of music school before I was convinced to give up and become a casino dealer. 
 ;D I am happy to be FREE!!!  I am


Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #3 on: September 14, 2013, 09:44:34 PM »
I was musically abused.   Truly.   My mother abused me in many ways but one of the most devastating to me were her lies about how well I played.  She forced me to accept as a child--that in order for something to be true--she had to verify it.   I would slave away and practice and try to play to her standards which I never seemed to achieve.  It never occurred to me that she had no basis or experience on which to judge me--or that my teachers and everyone else seemed to disagree--I thought she had to tell me I was good for it to be true.  She never once in all my life has told me I could play well.    My younger sister--a low brass player--is considered the musician in the family and received the support that took her to an ivy league advanced degree.  I was the accompanist slave...I truly believed for years that the only person who would hire me were my mother and my sister.  They convinced me that I just didn't play classical music very well but I could get paid a few dollars for accompanying mother's voice students.   She would pick and choose her students and award them to other accompanists and leave me what was left.   Of course, should she wish for one of her students to sing a new song--unavailable in any arrangement--I was called over to transcribe,transpose, and record the piece to mother's pc...for which I received nominal fees.  Of course if one of her voice students wished to take piano lessons--mother always had another "better match" teacher for them.   I have 20 years of teaching experience...   My sister called me once to tell me she had to transcribe and arrange a Willy Nelson song and could I come help because "I could do it faster"-she would not say, of course, that it was because I could do something she couldn't..  I raced right over and had it down in about 15 minutes....the next day she paid me $40--to clean her house..lol.    I have a youtube account with 1.6 million hits--and I let them convince me I couldn't be a musician without them...  I have since moved 3 states away--and it is amazing how successful I have become just playing locally..  lol.

CTrzg



watch out for this teachers....  I have seen this happen to others.   self-centered mother's give off big red flags.

What percentage of those hits are on your own videos? It seems that most of those are on uploads of other musicians, no?

I'm not out to criticise you for this, but the tone of your post strongly suggests you're trying to prove something to people right now? You don't need to. Acceptance is the most important step. Calling it musical "child abuse" is very strong language. Picture the literal child abuse that goes on China - where children are physically disciplined as part of really brutal and unpleasant training regimes. Consider also children who are sexually abused and then ask yourself whether it looks so bad by comparison?

I'm not saying you have no right to be upset simply because some people have it worse, but dwelling on the past never makes things better. You don't need to try to prove anything to strangers on the Internet, as a replacement for the approval your mother withheld. Enjoy making your music for your own benefit, not because you have to prove anything to anyone else. If you accept the past and let it go, it will make you far happier than if you feel you still have to prove your mother/ anyone else wrong. Music isn't for that. It's for you to enjoy. If anyone else enjoys that take it as a bonus, not something you personally need. If you're comfortable in yourself, you don't need to "have the last laugh" over anyone - regardless of whether they might have once held you back.


EDIT - my apologies- I scanned through the views on a some others and saw you that you have 250000 plus on one of your own. Do ignore that bit. However, you really don't need to post to strangers about how you proved your mother wrong. Be comfortable in yourself and what you've achieved. Nobody should need to tell people how "successful" they've been, if they're truly secure in themself. The most successful people are usually too busy being it to either need to describe themselves that way, or to dwell on anyone who might have once wronged them.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #4 on: September 14, 2013, 11:16:42 PM »
EDIT - my apologies- I scanned through the views on a some others and saw you that you have 250000 plus on one of your own. Do ignore that bit. However, you really don't need to post to strangers about how you proved your mother wrong. Be comfortable in yourself and what you've achieved. Nobody should need to tell people how "successful" they've been, if they're truly secure in themself. The most successful people are usually too busy being it to either need to describe themselves that way, or to dwell on anyone who might have once wronged them


this has always been the prevailing attitude concerning adult survivors of child abuse--and why the cycle continues from generation to generation.   My mother said something very similar.. so very clever.   To be fair... I have not even begun to cover what criminal acts she committed and continues to commit.  There is clear and present danger to others and that is why I am speaking to strangers--the more people who know this the SAFER this world will be and the SAFER my child is. It is hard to speak out sometimes when people feel so strongly about telling you why you shouldn't.   forgive my vernacular...

gimmie a break dude.  :o

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #5 on: September 14, 2013, 11:25:00 PM »
What percentage of those hits are on your own videos? It seems that most of those are on uploads of other musicians, no?

I'm not out to criticise you for this, but the tone of your post strongly suggests you're trying to prove something to people right now? You don't need to. Acceptance is the most important step. Calling it musical "child abuse" is very strong language. Picture the literal child abuse that goes on China - where children are physically disciplined as part of really brutal and unpleasant training regimes. Consider also children who are sexually abused and then ask yourself whether it looks so bad by comparison?

I'm not saying you have no right to be upset simply because some people have it worse, but dwelling on the past never makes things better. You don't need to try to prove anything to strangers on the Internet, as a replacement for the approval your mother withheld. Enjoy making your music for your own benefit, not because you have to prove anything to anyone else. If you accept the past and let it go, it will make you far happier than if you feel you still have to prove your mother/ anyone else wrong. Music isn't for that. It's for you to enjoy. If anyone else enjoys that take it as a bonus, not something you personally need. If you're comfortable in yourself, you don't need to "have the last laugh" over anyone - regardless of whether they might have once held you back.


EDIT - my apologies- I scanned through the views on a some others and saw you that you have 250000 plus on one of your own. Do ignore that bit. However, you really don't need to post to strangers about how you proved your mother wrong. Be comfortable in yourself and what you've achieved. Nobody should need to tell people how "successful" they've been, if they're truly secure in themself. The most successful people are usually too busy being it to either need to describe themselves that way, or to dwell on anyone who might have once wronged them.

I find your response so interesting...  you did exactly what you said you weren't out to do...criticize me...
you doubted my youtube account--1.5 million of those hits are of me playing.. yet you so quickly tried to prove me wrong.   

you did nothing in your whole post but try and discredit me--albeit very nicely...   I am not angered..but your behavior is common among those in denial about their own past.   

maybe you should give that a little thought.   if what I said upset you... there is a reason.  forgive me for mentioning it... but I do seem to remember one or two highly charged posts from you.

as far as sexual abuse...  yes... that too.   was it really that bad?  yes.  thx

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #6 on: September 15, 2013, 01:21:59 AM »
I find your response so interesting...  you did exactly what you said you weren't out to do...criticize me...
you doubted my youtube account--1.5 million of those hits are of me playing.. yet you so quickly tried to prove me wrong.  

you did nothing in your whole post but try and discredit me--albeit very nicely...   I am not angered..but your behavior is common among those in denial about their own past.  

maybe you should give that a little thought.   if what I said upset you... there is a reason.  forgive me for mentioning it... but I do seem to remember one or two highly charged posts from you.

as far as sexual abuse...  yes... that too.   was it really that bad?  yes.  thx

I'm sorry to hear that was an issue too. Really, my post was not intended in the spirit of a criticism, but an attempt to convey how the kind of tone you wrote in comes across to others, as well as as a reminder that needing/wanting to prove someone wrong is not a means towards long term happiness. Perhaps it's a necessary stage, but if you've now completed it, happiness comes from moving on- not reliving a sense of achieving victory over someone else. There's a comedy series about a character called Alan Partridge who writes a book where various chapters end with the phrase "needless to say, I had the last laugh", when he gets one over on someone he feels wronged by and shows how he feels he achieved more than they did in the end. Angry victory naturally comes across in that kind of way- regardless of whether a person had indeed been genuinely wronged. Ultimately, there's no long-term happiness to be gained by thinking about proving your mother wrong. You've done that now, so proceed for the love of it- not to "prove" anything to anybody. It's just not necessary, not something that generates long term satisfaction. When the mind runs through the satisfaction of proving her wrong, it will always be linked in to bitter memories of being wronged. The only way to get past the inherent bitterness of those memories is simply to put it in the past and start to live in the present. proceed purely for the love of it- not in reference to anything in the past. All that can do is to actively bring negative things back into the present, where they need not be kept.

Offline wwalrus

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #7 on: September 15, 2013, 02:02:19 AM »
What's your point in making these posts?

Considering you included the part about your sister, it seems like you're just trying to get attention for ending up to be more successful then her.

Also, no offense, but the virtuoso part in the topic isn't exactly warranted.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #8 on: September 15, 2013, 02:10:56 AM »
Maybe she could become a virtuoso! You just never know! She certainly plays with great feeling!

If only she had the great technique also, then I think she could be a virtuoso!


Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #9 on: September 15, 2013, 02:44:03 AM »
this has always been the prevailing attitude concerning adult survivors of child abuse--and why the cycle continues from generation to generation.   My mother said something very similar.. so very clever.   To be fair... I have not even begun to cover what criminal acts she committed and continues to commit.  There is clear and present danger to others and that is why I am speaking to strangers--the more people who know this the SAFER this world will be and the SAFER my child is. It is hard to speak out sometimes when people feel so strongly about telling you why you shouldn't.   forgive my vernacular...


The problem was that you didn't really make any specific point as to what you're suggesting to teachers. You didn't define what to look out for, or offer advice upon what a teacher ought to do if they see such things. The last line read like it was tacked on simply to generate a very slight and tenuous link between an off topic story about you proving people wrong and the teachers forum. If the intention of the post was to make things safe for people, it didn't convey anything to me about what action on a teacher's part might contribute to that. Can you please elaborate on specifically what you are advising to any teachers reading this thread? If you do wish to elaborate on the general things that might apply to others, rather than merely on your personal tale, it would certainly be of more relevance to the forum. But it was quite impossible not to note the overriding sense of someone trying to prove something, in an original post that primarily left me wondering for what other reason it might have been posted in this particular forum. You won't be free of the effect your mother had on you until you learn to let go of that need. If your post was about proposing something in particular to teachers, I simply didn't follow what that actually was.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #10 on: September 15, 2013, 04:03:16 AM »
ah such emotion these posts churn up. :)  my point was to warn other piano teachers to watch for this behavior.   I am a virtuoso...thanks...    part of being a musician is not to let others define you..   

I get angry from time to time...   being abused carries with it an inability to express emotions at times and I do apologize if I have been misunderstood.     

those of you who were angered enough to question my authenticity or sincerity--should ask yourselves why this is.   

"getting attention"   because I am more successful then my sister?  depends on how you define success and what you mean by getting attention..   and also indicates that the poster has similar issues...  psychology

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #11 on: September 15, 2013, 04:10:16 AM »
 I am a virtuoso...thanks...   


I'm sorry, but in order to be a virtuoso you have to be at least level 10. You're still only about level  2.  :P

You need to get a handle on that sloppy sound!

The great virtuoso produces a tone that is both expressive and pure at the same time, and free from sloppiness!

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #12 on: September 15, 2013, 04:20:05 AM »
it is so cool

I posted this on another string and said I was a jazzer trying to play classical.   comments were so much kinder.   seems if  I want to say I am a virtuoso then someone will have to come out and tell me I am wrong.   They will give me their definition of "virtuoso" and tell me how I don't measure up.   The fact that in all likelihood they don't come close to my level of playing never even enters their thoughts.  They feel they can define my playing in their terms and I will listen and think they know what they are talking about.

this only happens among classical players.  and I wonder why.    why does it anger you people if someone believes they are good at this...   

why are you so quick to tell them they are wrong.   I mean this sincerely...

the rest of us are encouraging to each other-- we are more about the performance and the camaraderie of playing in a band.

why do you guys do this? 

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #13 on: September 15, 2013, 04:20:24 AM »
ah such emotion these posts churn up. :)  my point was to warn other piano teachers to watch for this behavior.   I am a virtuoso...thanks...    part of being a musician is not to let others define you..  

I get angry from time to time...   being abused carries with it an inability to express emotions at times and I do apologize if I have been misunderstood.    

those of you who were angered enough to question my authenticity or sincerity--should ask yourselves why this is.  

"getting attention"   because I am more successful then my sister?  depends on how you define success and what you mean by getting attention..   and also indicates that the poster has similar issues...  psychology

Watch as in just sit back and observe, like its a movie? Sorry, but you really need to specify what you are actually suggesting, if this is to be taken as any kind of advice to other teachers, rather than personal venting.

If this thread is about protecting anyone,you need to give us clear indications of what to look for and an indication of what action you recommend in response, otherwise that aspect will never have even got off the ground within this thread.

PS its a matter of what virtuoso is defined as, not how a musician views themself. Virtuosi play the most difficult repertoire with ease, otherwise the term is being misapplied. A poster in this thread plays all Chopin études,btw, so you really don't want to try to make it some kind of silly contest about whether anyone else's level qualifies them to appreciate the correct meaning of the term. Not all dissenters are automatically beneath you and neither is it a contest.


Offline dcstudio

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #14 on: September 15, 2013, 04:36:46 AM »


It just puzzles me that the word virtuoso seems to cause such a reaction.   I posted the exact same vid--claimed to be non-classical attempting Beethoven...  the comments are kinder. 

so determined to show me that I am wrong about myself... determined that you will find something wrong ...  as classical players often do.   It's the resentment I sense that I am really interested in exploring here.

the "sit back and observe"  all so condescending.  why?  in what way have I offended you that your response would be so spiteful.   I did just confess to being abused..  funny that even that garnered no sympathy..or even a desire to be kinder in your posts.

interesting. really.  that merely claiming to be able to play incites such a rally of "naysayers"
 

we call it "musical neurosis"    -- 

I am really trying to understand...  please help me.

Offline wwalrus

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #15 on: September 15, 2013, 04:40:21 AM »

It just puzzles me that the word virtuoso seems to cause such a reaction.   I posted the exact same vid--claimed to be non-classical attempting Beethoven...  the comments are kinder. 

so determined to show me that I am wrong about myself... determined that you will find something wrong ...  as classical players often do.   It's the resentment I sense that I am really interested in exploring here.

the "sit back and observe"  all so condescending.  why?  in what way have I offended you that your response would be so spiteful.   I did just confess to being abused..  funny that even that garnered no sympathy..or even a desire to be kinder in your posts.

interesting. really.  that merely claiming to be able to play incites such a rally of "naysayers"
 

we call it "musical neurosis"    -- 

I am really trying to understand...  please help me.
Few points:

1. You're extremely arrogant. Be humble. No, you don't have the right to call yourself a virtuoso. That just shows that you have no perception where you are. OTHER people should call you a virtuoso- then you can use their quotes to support your idea of yourself as a virtuoso. However, no one has done it, so it's not warranted.

2.

"getting attention"   because I am more successful then my sister?  depends on how you define success and what you mean by getting attention..   and also indicates that the poster has similar issues...  psychology
Actually, it doesn't. Based on what? Are you justifying this because "psychology?" Show me exactly what says this to be true, because it isn't.

3.You're really desperate to prove to others how sad your background is and how difficult your childhood was. We don't give a sh*t. This isn't a forum to vent about how your difficult past. We care about piano. This is supposed to be a release from sh*t outside of piano, not something that drags us back into that sh*t.

4. Get off your high horse.


5.
the comments are kinder. 
That's because they don't know anything about piano. People here know what they're talking about, myself included. Youtube is where people from whatever background can join and say whatever they want, regardless of what they know.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #16 on: September 15, 2013, 04:46:09 AM »

interesting. really.  that merely claiming to be able to play incites such a rally of "naysayers"
 

There is a big difference between claiming to be able to play and claiming to be a virtuoso.
You don't claim to be a virtuoso. You either are a virtuoso or you are not a virtuoso.

Virtuosity is yours only when others consider you to be at the virtuoso level.
Otherwise everyone and her sister would be a virtuoso ;)

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #17 on: September 15, 2013, 05:40:49 AM »
Few points:

1. You're extremely arrogant. Be humble. No, you don't have the right to call yourself a virtuoso. That just shows that you have no perception where you are. OTHER people should call you a virtuoso- then you can use their quotes to support your idea of yourself as a virtuoso. However, no one has done it, so it's not warranted.

2.Actually, it doesn't. Based on what? Are you justifying this because "psychology?" Show me exactly what says this to be true, because it isn't.

3.You're really desperate to prove to others how sad your background is and how difficult your childhood was. We don't give a sh*t. This isn't a forum to vent about how your difficult past. We care about piano. This is supposed to be a release from sh*t outside of piano, not something that drags us back into that sh*t.

4. Get off your high horse.


5.That's because they don't know anything about piano. People here know what they're talking about, myself included. Youtube is where people from whatever background can join and say whatever they want, regardless of what they know.

so angry.   so resentful.

I find it truly comical that you call me arrogant and you employ a numerical system to tell me nothing more than how your definition of me is more accurate than mine.

I feel we have different definitions of the word "arrogant"  just as we have different definitions of the word "virtuoso."


what are you arguing with me about?  where is your anger coming from?

your definition of me--doesn't change the fact that I make a living at playing the piano and you don't.  Yet you feel your expert enough to tell me who I am--yet you give me no credentials--you just think if you are mean enough I will think you know what you are talking about.

guys..  you resent me because I boldly say I have reached a level that you feel you never will, presented in the way I did it--it wouldn't matter if I was LISZT..   you would find a reason to try and devalue me.
 

textbook musical neurosis.   either fix it or you will always be trying to tell others that they don't play as well as they think they do. You will resent anyone who you feel threatens your musical image of yourself.  Which is what I just did.

for the record... I was horribly abused...  not that it mattered to any of you.   all you wanted to do was redefine me as a musician so YOU would be more comfortable with ME.  Each post does this.  One suggested I was only a level two...really.  c'mon.  why ya gotta be so mean. 

another suggested I was out to get attention--funny that's what mother said when I spoke out against her...  abuser's logic..

GOD BLESS YOU

ref.  Freud.



Offline awesom_o

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #18 on: September 15, 2013, 05:55:14 AM »

guys..  you resent me because I boldly say I have reached a level that you feel you never will, presented in the way I did it--it wouldn't matter if I was LISZT..   

I will never reach your level because I am already level 10 and you're only level 2. ;) The levels just don't go backwards. Piano wouldn't be very fun at all if it worked like that!

If you were Liszt, we wouldn't resent you one bit. In fact, I think you'd be very popular here indeed if you were Liszt. Liszt was an exceptional fellow really... one of the best ever! He played with incredible clarity of tone. You need to work on the clarity of your tone! That's the only way you'll get past level 2.

Offline wwalrus

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #19 on: September 15, 2013, 06:00:53 AM »
But half the people on this forum play way better then you. What are your thoughts on that?

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #20 on: September 15, 2013, 06:03:52 AM »
just keep telling yourself that.

really.  maybe someday you yourself will believe it.

me I will go out and make more money playing and you will only resent me further because I do.  poor you and your level 10 self.

lol... known a million like you.. I play circles around you and you know it. all I got to do is start playing jazz and you all run for the hills...  

That is why you are so angry :)  your statements just prove my point.  really what does it matter to you what I call myself?  

lol get a life sweetie.  and go learn to play--instead of downing us that know how. :)  

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #21 on: September 15, 2013, 06:05:47 AM »
@ dcstudio

Thank you for sharing. I think you made that piece your own, although the result may not meet the expectations of convention in certain aspects. You are a gem and as you may know, it takes a great Master to process a gem properly. You are therefore bound to rely only on your own resources. My wish to you: a better instrument so you can get the max out of yourself in terms of touch and tone.

P.S.: I really don't understand why you posted this in the teacher's forum. Teaching is usually about standardizing mediocrity, while art is about uniqueness. Teaching and art, therefore, don't go very well together, and the reactions you got here were to be expected, don't you think? :)
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline pianoman53

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #22 on: September 15, 2013, 06:06:30 AM »
I don't quite get the point here. You say you are a virtuoso, and others say that you're not.
So why do you care? Clearly, virtuoso means different things for different people.

I like to cook. And it seems like my friend's like my cooking too, so they occasionally say some nice words about it when I treat them. Though, I would never dream of going to a restaurant, filled with ambitious students and teachers who have been cooking both longer and far more serious than I have.. And I would definitely not try to convince them that I am just as good as they are. I'm happy that I can make some nice things for my friends.

Why can't you be happy that you can make some jazz people happy with your playing? As, mostly, classical pianists, we have different standards, and we spend our time perfecting our skills, and listening to people who perfected it.
If you're happy the way you are, call yourself a virtuoso. Why does it matter what anyone here thinks about it?

And dammit, why do all of you try to prove her wrong? Let the woman be happy. Since when is it our job to judge?

Offline wwalrus

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #23 on: September 15, 2013, 06:09:20 AM »
I play circles around you and you know it.
you barely slogged through the beethoven movement. I posted my repertoire in the thread about what we're playing right now. If you can play a single piece from my repertoire, I'll be impressed.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #24 on: September 15, 2013, 06:18:56 AM »
poor you and your level 10 self.

lol... known a million like you.. I play circles around you and you know it. all I got to do is start playing jazz and you all run for the hills...  
 

No, I could definitely take you in a cutting contest. I told you, I love jazz!! I don't think you could even play an octotonic minor scale with such sloppy technique, let alone shred up some changes.
 :)

Offline wwalrus

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #25 on: September 15, 2013, 06:19:51 AM »
Scale in thirds? no way.

Offline theholygideons

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #26 on: September 15, 2013, 06:27:32 AM »
@dcstudio,
we don't *** care how many views or how much income you have. have you read the disclaimer above when you post? 'Please note: This board is primarily intended for PROFESSIONAL pianists and piano teachers as well as piano students and amateures at an ADVANCED level. If you are not part of this group, consider posting in the Student's Corner instead.'
Have you looked in the mirror lately?, you are one deluded woman. From an objective musical standpoint, your technique and rhythmic control is extraordinary!!..... in the fact that it falls so much below what one would expect of the virtuoso player you proclaim yourself to be.

Offline outin

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #27 on: September 15, 2013, 08:03:44 AM »
The OP obviously has some deep emotional issues with her past and is trying to recover by boosting her self confidence and repressing self critique. Something that is often recommended in self help books. Not sure it really helps, but maybe it does sometimes.

She used this board to went. Not such a good idea, I am not at all surprised it turned out a bit nasty.

I posted my repertoire in the thread about what we're playing right now. If you can play a single piece from my repertoire, I'll be impressed.

I'll be very impressed too, I am sure, if you post you playing some of those pieces for us all to hear!

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #28 on: September 15, 2013, 11:35:44 AM »
The OP obviously has some deep emotional issues with her past and is trying to recover by boosting her self confidence and repressing self critique. Something that is often recommended in self help books. Not sure it really helps, but maybe it does sometimes.


With sexual abuse also in the mix usually some professional help as a guide works best. A proper professional can get to the root. Also support groups can be helpful for some women. Much depends on the individual and she ( the OP) may well be fully aware of all this already..  It's not just the violation, it's all kinds of little strings and fabrics of life that end up effected along the way. It's complex or can be.
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #29 on: September 15, 2013, 11:48:41 AM »



judge not lest thee be judged.


I am blessed to call myself a professional musician.   thank you all for your support.  gotta go...

got a gig today.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #30 on: September 15, 2013, 01:48:21 PM »


judge not lest thee be judged.


I am blessed to call myself a professional musician.   thank you all for your support.  gotta go...

got a gig today.

consider that quote when getting all competitive and derogatory towards anyone who appreciated the accurate definition of a virtuoso. You've come from a difficult background but you're simply perpetuating the cycle by starting threads like these and then trying to put yourself above anyone who raises an eyebrow about you not being the virtuoso you claim. Stop judging others, stop judging yourself and stop encouraging others to judge you by writing boastfully. There's no shame in not being a virtuoso unless you make that a shameful thing. If it is a shameful thing, you're the only person who made it shameful for yourself not to be a virtuoso. I have no interest in competing against you but, having played a rachmaninoff concerto and such repertoire as big Liszt works, I'm not a virtuoso. You certainly aren't either.

Stop judging yourself against unrealistic standards and stop trying to prove yourself. Portraying yourself as something you are not results in nothing but negative consequences- as people will inevitably point that out to you. At this point you can go on the defence  and try to put these people down, but is that really good for you? Trying to claim that anyone who disagrees with you must be an inferior pianist to you is plain deluded. Why do you need to try place yourself on higher ground? Why do you need to make yourself feel better than others, rather than simply content in yourself without comparisons? Do people really become happy by inviting criticism with unrealistic claims and then trying to place themself on a pedestal over people who are actually a lot more experienced? When you try to think so positively as to pretend to be something you are not (in part achieved by attempts to put others down without accurate basis) it's simply negative thinking by proxy- setting yourself up for a fall and for a pointless battle against others. Be humble and be accepting of the present as it REALLY is and people will stop judging you. You'll be a lot happier.

Offline wwalrus

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #31 on: September 15, 2013, 03:58:42 PM »
The OP obviously has some deep emotional issues with her past and is trying to recover by boosting her self confidence and repressing self critique. Something that is often recommended in self help books. Not sure it really helps, but maybe it does sometimes.

She used this board to went. Not such a good idea, I am not at all surprised it turned out a bit nasty.

I'll be very impressed too, I am sure, if you post you playing some of those pieces for us all to hear!
I think i said in the same thread- or another thread- that within 1-2 months, the program will be ready, and that I would post a video of the concert. You can hold me accountable for that timeframe.

Offline liszt1022

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #32 on: September 15, 2013, 04:10:44 PM »
wow, trollfest.

Offline yohankwon

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #33 on: September 15, 2013, 09:52:45 PM »
1. vir·tu·o·so: a person who does something in a very skillful way; especially : a very skillful musician : one who excels in the technique of an art; especially :  a highly skilled musical performer (Merriam Webster)
Ex. Evgeny Kissin, Beethoven, Liszt, Paganini, etc.

2. I personally think that music theory is pretty important for a "virtuoso"
 http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=49929.msg543796#msg543796

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #34 on: September 16, 2013, 01:38:03 AM »

all of you seem to say I am not what I think I am.  that is your complete argument.  I have defined myself one way and you say it is another.

who has done this to you?    all of you who are angry have let someone else define you as less than you are.

or you would not care at all what I think of my own playing.  abuse/virtuoso/Beethoven--pretty strong words and very carefully chosen.

your talent was a threat to someone--  it is likely you too  are a VIRTUOSO.

many of you responded with the same phrases that were said to you.  just think about it guys.

 8) Make music

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #35 on: September 16, 2013, 01:41:23 AM »
With sexual abuse also in the mix usually some professional help as a guide works best. A proper professional can get to the root. Also support groups can be helpful for some women. Much depends on the individual and she ( the OP) may well be fully aware of all this already..  It's not just the violation, it's all kinds of little strings and fabrics of life that end up effected along the way. It's complex or can be.


thank you  :) 

Offline wwalrus

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #36 on: September 16, 2013, 02:12:14 AM »
all of you seem to say I am not what I think I am.  that is your complete argument.  I have defined myself one way and you say it is another.

who has done this to you?    all of you who are angry have let someone else define you as less than you are.

or you would not care at all what I think of my own playing.  abuse/virtuoso/Beethoven--pretty strong words and very carefully chosen.

your talent was a threat to someone--  it is likely you too  are a VIRTUOSO.

many of you responded with the same phrases that were said to you.  just think about it guys.

 8) Make music


it's like you think you understand psychology, but you really don't. nothing about someone making a point says that same point- or event- occurred to them.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #37 on: September 16, 2013, 05:33:19 AM »
I don't want to be a virtuoso.  But I would like to become a good musician.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #38 on: September 16, 2013, 06:01:27 AM »
all of you seem to say I am not what I think I am.  that is your complete argument.  I have defined myself one way and you say it is another.

who has done this to you?    all of you who are angry have let someone else define you as less than you are.

or you would not care at all what I think of my own playing.  abuse/virtuoso/Beethoven--pretty strong words and very carefully chosen.

your talent was a threat to someone--  it is likely you too  are a VIRTUOSO.

many of you responded with the same phrases that were said to you.  just think about it guys.

 8) Make music

You need to stop judging yourself. The only reason you need to pretend to be a virtuoso is because you would have to judge yourself negatively if you are not. Accept your standard and stop pretending anyone who would criticise must be threatened by you and inferior. This constant competiveness will do you absolutely no good as a person.

Your standard is what it is and it is the lone thing that defines you. Insisting on the right to use certain words neither makes it any better or worse. But be aware that nobody will feel drawn towards a person who insists  on using terminology to align themself to the minute elite. There are international competition winners who are frankly debatable as virtuoso. If getting through the third movement of the moonlight makes a virtuoso, I've taught numerous virtuoso students. Well, I haven't. I've taught students who played it to a very good level, but the word virtuoso exists to define the finest of the fine. Nobody scores a victory by just insisting that they have a right to place themself among the elite. They do so by earning it with their level of attainment. It's human nature that people will not like those who try to tell people of their self judged excellence and who become competive against honest response. Be humble and people will respect you and treat you with the understanding that you clearly desire.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #39 on: September 16, 2013, 01:33:00 PM »
I don't want to be a virtuoso.  But I would like to become a good musician.


In order to become anything more than a virtuoso, first you have to at least become a virtuoso.

 :'(

Offline keypeg

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #40 on: September 16, 2013, 07:00:48 PM »

In order to become anything more than a virtuoso, first you have to at least become a virtuoso.

 :'(
I disagree.  You must learn to play very well and accurately, and have control over nuances, yes.  But must you be able to play the fastest of fast, and the greatest leaps and lightning speed?  And for those who can, are all of them playing musically, as musicians, with depth?

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #41 on: September 16, 2013, 07:17:03 PM »
I disagree.  You must learn to play very well and accurately, and have control over nuances, yes.  But must you be able to play the fastest of fast, and the greatest leaps and lightning speed?  And for those who can, are all of them playing musically, as musicians, with depth?

It depends what you want to play. My girlfriend and I are playing right now Liszt's arrangement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony for Two Pianos.

In a work of this magnitude, you must be able to play very well and accurately, you must have the utmost control over nuances, AND you must be able to play the fastest of the fast, negotiating fearsome leaps at lightning speed.

All of this has to happen with the utmost musical care in order for the performance to even meet, let alone exceed people's expectations.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #42 on: September 16, 2013, 08:47:55 PM »
I was talking about aiming for musicianship.  It has nothing to do with level of pieces or difficulty of pieces.  And you are talking about SKILL.  Not trying to be a virtuoso - which can be devoid of musicianship.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #43 on: September 16, 2013, 11:04:18 PM »
I was talking about aiming for musicianship.  It has nothing to do with level of pieces or difficulty of pieces.  And you are talking about SKILL.  Not trying to be a virtuoso - which can be devoid of musicianship.

I'm sorry, but I feel that in order to be a virtuoso, you need both a high level of musicianship and a high level of technical capacity.

If you are lacking in either musicianship or technical capacity, you are simply a wannabe-virtuoso.

A true virtuoso has everything. Style, charm, elegance, bravura, nuance, accuracy, subtlety, originality..... excellence in every single possible category.

This is just my opinion. Many people these days seem to throw the word 'virtuoso' around as though there were thousands of virtuoso pianists these days.... when I think there are probably only a couple of dozen on the piano at most....and certainly under a hundred.

I feel very strongly that in order to be a true virtuoso on an instrument, you have to also improvise and compose for that instrument. Chopin, Beethoven, Liszt, and Rachmaninoff were true piano virtuosos.

I wouldn't use the term to describe very many modern-day concert pianists. A few, certainly..... but not many.


Offline pianoman53

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #44 on: September 17, 2013, 05:11:21 AM »
Virtuoso has been given a bad name lately. I don't think one can be called virtuoso without being able to play beautiful

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #45 on: September 17, 2013, 05:24:45 AM »
You definitely have to be able to compose and play beautifully to deserve the title.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #46 on: September 17, 2013, 01:32:05 PM »
I don't quite get the point here. You say you are a virtuoso, and others say that you're not.
So why do you care? Clearly, virtuoso means different things for different people.

I like to cook. And it seems like my friend's like my cooking too, so they occasionally say some nice words about it when I treat them. Though, I would never dream of going to a restaurant, filled with ambitious students and teachers who have been cooking both longer and far more serious than I have.. And I would definitely not try to convince them that I am just as good as they are. I'm happy that I can make some nice things for my friends.

Why can't you be happy that you can make some jazz people happy with your playing? As, mostly, classical pianists, we have different standards, and we spend our time perfecting our skills, and listening to people who perfected it.
If you're happy the way you are, call yourself a virtuoso. Why does it matter what anyone here thinks about it?

And dammit, why do all of you try to prove her wrong? Let the woman be happy. Since when is it our job to judge?

GOD BLESS YOU Pianoman53.   people are happy when I play.. regardless of their favorite style of music...and I am happy when I play....  and that is a blessing any way you look at it. 

as for the virtuoso thing...  it's just a word.   the jury is still out on whether it is as powerful of a word as it appears to be. 

maybe I will be "the blue fairy pianist" instead.  lol

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #47 on: September 17, 2013, 01:42:58 PM »
you barely slogged through the beethoven movement. I posted my repertoire in the thread about what we're playing right now. If you can play a single piece from my repertoire, I'll be impressed.

how old are you? really. I am 49--and I am embarrassed for you.

I seriously doubt anyone's playing impresses you...     sounds to me like you are a child of a concert pianist.. a julliard grad maybe.   most likely your mother...  you state that as a reason people should take your comments seriously--because you have a musical parent and you have studied and you know.

you have had the word "virtoso" clearly defined for you by someone very close to you.... that is  obvious.  only richter ? is he the only virtuoso..  do you tear up Valentina and say she is not "as good as she thinks she is," too.   
I will say again.   you are a virtuoso...  what I call myself in no way diminishes you..

and who among the major players is not torn to shreds by these forums.  not to say I am a major player--just a point.

LOVE AND PEACE and Thelonius Monk  8)

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #48 on: September 17, 2013, 02:37:57 PM »
you have had the word "virtoso" clearly defined for you by someone very close to you.... that is  obvious.  only richter ? is he the only virtuoso..  do you tear up Valentina and say she is not "as good as she thinks she is," too.  
I will say again.   you are a virtuoso...  what I call myself in no way diminishes you..
 

What you don't seem to understand, either on a personal level or on an objective level, is that to proclaim yourself a virtuoso is like a fairly decent amateur cook calling themself a three star Michelin Star chef, because in their estimation (not in that of experts within the field) they are at the same level of accomplishment. Virtuosity may not be as immediately definable as whether a person has actually achieved a Michelin star, but its meaning is the pianistic equivalent of Michelin stars. The elite of the elite. Not somebody who can get through one of the easier movements of Beethoven's sonatas. It demands the utmost excellence in execution. Or take an amateur dramatics actor aligning himself with such greats as Laurence Olivier (yet stuttering over half of his lines, if we compare to the imprecision of your articulation).
 
How would you feel if such a person came up to you and spoke in such unpleasantly self-congratulatory terms? Would you feel drawn or endeared towards that person if they made such a bizarre claim? Or if they were humble and simply did what they did and left it others to decide whether they enjoy their work? Stop forcing criticism upon yourself. I wouldn't even have wished to comment on the weak articulation of the Beethoven, were it not for the fact that you insist on trying to align yourself to the elite by using a term that is specifically defined for that context. Think about how you come across to others and behave with the level of humility that earns respect. Nobody likes a person who tries to impress others by trying to make an issue of how big their accomplishments are- particularly if they discover that the reality falls considerably short. Rather than keep trying to criticise everyone who has been honest with you, please stop to consider the fact that people make their own destiny with their own actions. If you want to be called a virtuoso, you must earn the right- just as a chef has to earn his Michelin stars, not in his own eyes, but in the eyes of others.

PS. What baffles me is the fact you harbour such a need to pretend to yourself that you are a virtuoso. This is a film of myself a few years ago (and I don't have any musical background from my parents):

https://myspace.com/andrewthayer/video/bumblebee/7564028

Can you even do interlocking octaves? I can, but I wasn't a virtuoso then and despite considerable work on technique I'm not a virtuoso now. Neither are you. Get over it and learn to accept yourself for what you are, with contentment and without needing to try to place yourself above everyone else in the elite. Or if you're not happy as you are, rather than hype yourself up, keep putting the work in and find satisfaction from seeking further self-improvement.

Offline liszt1022

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Re: Musical child abuse to VIRTUOSO and Beethoven :)
«Reply #49 on: September 17, 2013, 02:43:15 PM »
sounds to me like you are a child of a concert pianist.. a julliard grad maybe.   most likely your mother...

I like how you say this like a deduction and not like wwalrus posted that his mother was a Julliard graduate on Saturday.