can anyone else improvise/semi-improvise like this?

[swagmaster420x]

[awesom_o]

I can't improvise like that, because to my ears that doesn't sound very good, and my hands are only skilled at playing what my ears tell them sounds good.

I can certainly improvise much better than that, though....

[swagmaster420x]

teach pls

if i could improvise at that "not so good" level, i would already be rly proud of myself lol

[theholygideons]

if i could reach this level of lisztian improvisation i would be content.

[awesom_o]

Ok.

Pick a key signature. Sing 'Happy Birthday' in that key with your voice, using as good-quality pitch as you can muster. With your right hand hanging relaxed by your side, use your  left hand to accompany the melody. Avoid solid block chords, and think instead of a moving line, as though your left hand was a cello or bass player, accompanying a soprano.

Make sure you maintain the rhythm! That is the most important thing!

At first, you may find yourself able only to give one or two accompanying bass notes per bar. That is ok! Make sure they sound good with the melody that you are singing beautifully and rhythmically with your voice.

Over time, your bass player should become more skilled at providing a pleasing accompaniment, rather than a stiff, 'squarish' sounding one.

Practice this in different keys every day!

[swagmaster420x]

thanks, it sounds like a good method

and why don't you like kylelandry's music
i mean, if the improvisation sounds good to musically uncultured people like me and most others, then it should be good right? because that's going to be the overwhelming majority of your audience? currently i would prefer to be able to improvise that sounds generically good rather than something that needs to be appreciated

[swagmaster420x]

if i could reach this level of lisztian improvisation i would be content.

x ________ x

[awesom_o]

thanks, it sounds like a good method

and why don't you like kylelandry's music

I think he is a very talented young fellow. I was quite impressed with some of his arrangements.

In my opinion, he would have a more refined touch if he spent all of his time on real pianos instead of fake ones.

The video you posted, for me, had too much 'show' and not enough 'go'..... if that makes any sense.



Katsaris, of course, is a first-rate virtuoso. One of the finest. His recordings of the Liszt Transcriptions of the Beethoven Symphonies are insane.

[ted]

I think that particular piece of Landry's was mostly composed wasn't it ? But he has posted many totally spontaneous pieces and I agree that he is very good. I also agree with awesom_o though, that he would sound much better on an acoustic grand. His forum and website, which I joined a few months ago, seemed to suddenly go offline a couple of days ago and has not recovered. Bravura improvisations on themes are always a treat if done well. The forms and mechanisms of personal improvisation are as numerous as music itself and the minds creating it; that is what is so good about it. You build your own universe of form, technique, vocabulary and mental process over a lifetime and never really reach any sort of conclusion because of its dynamic nature. I think Jarrett was right when he said that it has never been given its due in the serious musical world. This is a pity, because we can now very cheaply make near perfect recordings of ourselves, which are essentially finished, lasting artistic products in themselves. The transient aspect of improvised sound is not a valid consideration any more, and has not been so for years. Yet the view of improvisation as a "poor man's composition" persists.

I am always interested in hearing people improvise, even if I don't like their actual music. There is always something to learn.   

[awesom_o]

The transient aspect of improvised sound is not a valid consideration any more, and has not been so for years. Yet the view of improvisation as a "poor man's composition" persists.

Many people are confused about the two. The purpose of improvisation is not to create a finished composition in the moment!

Improvisation is just the most efficient way to practice once one is highly advanced, musically and technically.

It also happens to be the only method of practice that has the potential to be publicly dazzling.

[swagmaster420x]

I think that particular piece of Landry's was mostly composed wasn't it ?

he said it came to him after a few minutes, granted he had drawn inspiration from practicing lots of chopin beforehand. composed in few minutes is pretty much improvised for me.

[awesom_o]

composed in few minutes is pretty much improvised for me.

It wouldn't really cut the mustard in an olden-days style classical cutting contest, though.

Do you know how those things worked?

[swagmaster420x]

they took turns cutting themselves on the wrist with razor blades to reach high levels of emotion? (cutting contest?)

[awesom_o]

https://listverse.com/2011/12/27/7-classical-piano-duels/

[awesom_o]

I think some of those are definitely exaggerated, but you get the drift...

[theholygideons]

You forgot the piano duel between jay chou and yu hao!!
jokessss....

[swagmaster420x]

why dont modern pianist do this x_x it would be so much more exciting
im pretty sure they could get the skills if they tried......... maybe

[j_menz]

why dont modern pianist do this x_x it would be so much more exciting
im pretty sure they could get the skills if they tried......... maybe

They do. Just look at the plethora of competitions around.  They do tend to get it out of their system early, though, and settle down to trying to make some real money.

[swagmaster420x]

omg does jay chou count as a professional pianist doeee+

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I don't mind the initial video, though a real piano would improve it. Katsaris is re-expressing Liszt's Tannhauser transcription for a significant part of that video. I don't know if that's true improvisation - but it's a useful skill to be able to play any piece redesigned as seen through a window of your choice.

If you want to do romantic-era improvisation, I'd say it's an absolute prerequisite to have good technical control over standard figurations i.e. scales, arpeggios, tremolandi, octaves, perhaps even double notes/scales in thirds. Control such that you can play a melody in one hand, focus on the melody, and let the ornamentation take care of itself in the other, because you know it will come out ok.

A few factual errors pertaining to the account of the Liszt-Thalberg duel on that website

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Many people are confused about the two. The purpose of improvisation is not to create a finished composition in the moment!

Improvisation is just the most efficient way to practice once one is highly advanced, musically and technically.

Agreed. I'm not about to claim to be highly advanced - that's for the Cziffras and Katsarises of this world - but it's a great way to practice figuration.

A bit mushy, but that's me, getting my fingers exercised for the day ahead.

[awesom_o]

They do. Just look at the plethora of competitions around.  They do tend to get it out of their system early, though, and settle down to trying to make some real money.

Do I detect a slight bitterness towards improvisation here?

Keep in mind Keith Jarrett's CD, The Koln concert, is the all-time best-selling solo piano album, with 3.5 million sales.

Gabriela Montero seems to be doing very well for herself indeed!


Methinks the world is willing to pay $$$ for skilled improvisers!

[ranniks]

I can't improvise like that, because to my ears that doesn't sound very good, and my hands are only skilled at playing what my ears tell them sounds good.

I can certainly improvise much better than that, though....

Hey, I get it, you're a good pianist/teacher, but you sound a bit negative if you ask me.

Kyle is a brilliant pianist imho. His success certainly tells so.

If it wasn't for people like Kyle, I wouldn't have started the piano I think.

[ted]

I can't improvise like that, because to my ears that doesn't sound very good, and my hands are only skilled at playing what my ears tell them sounds good.

That is a very good observation, and explains precisely why the creative aspect is so different to established channels of piano playing. External magisteria of quality, such as exist in the traditions of classical and jazz, are not necessarily applicable. They can be, if the improviser's personal aesthetic, his intuitive psychic base, is closely aligned to those established sounds, as was the case with Czerny's ideas, which I commented on, perhaps not entirely fairly, in a previous thread.

In general, however, in any artistic creation we must be completely ourselves. If we respond differently, if our minds march to a different drum, and that response is genuine and not simply a desire to be iconoclastic, then we must embrace it fiercely, and it alone.   

[swagmaster420x]

basically ur saying "good" is subjective?

[ted]

No, that is too broad, even within art. Obviously, some elements such as physical technique, aural acuity, mental adroitness, perhaps musical knowledge, are clearly defined and objectively measurable. However, the internal effect of music on an individual mind, emotive and intellectual associations and so on, are essentially qualia, and therefore whether or not they are good is purely personal, that is to say relative.

So it is perfectly possible for any individual to be highly appreciative of, say, Cziffra's or Katsaris's improvisation in the former senses while remaining indifferent to, or even actively disliking its musical sound. Couple this with variation in the actual modes of thought going on in improvisation and the whole process becomes very complicated, in both execution and perception.

What I meant was that all the objective "goods", if you like to call them that, are only important for an individual creator to the extent they can bring joy and facility to his own subjective "good", which latter I feel is all that matters in the end. I think we all go through periods of emulation when we are young, but with age comes the realisation that it is pointless, even rather sad, to pursue somebody else's dream in any creative artistic endeavour.

 

[swagmaster420x]

[awesom_o]

Still, I think Cziffra and Katsaris show slight discomfort in their improvisations. They make such a conscious effort to make the improvisation seem 'Lisztian' and 'virtuosic'..... instead of really putting their souls out there to try and make some beautiful music in the moment.

This is Katsaris showing us some pretty sick improv chops and securing his place as master cheesemonger.

It's a bit corny, and I suspect more than a few of those kernels ended up un-chewed in the toilet bowl the next day, rather than being woven overnight by candlelight and quill into lasting, finished creations. 

But at least there is genuine melody, harmony, and rhythm!



I really enjoyed hearing such a refined cheese! Kind of like an artisan Ricotta with honey... Sweet, light, and remarkably delicious!

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Still, I think Cziffra and Katsaris show slight discomfort in their improvisations. They make such a conscious effort to make the improvisation seem 'Lisztian' and 'virtuosic'..... instead of really putting their souls out there to try and make some beautiful music in the moment.

I'd have to disagree. I think the 'Lisztian' language in Cziffra's improvisations is Cziffra's own language - yes it has similarities to Liszt, but he's very fond of double-handed runs and harmonies of the diminished second of the scale; also there can be a certain spikiness not present in Liszt. I think he's thoroughly comfortable, just doing what comes naturally, and any "conscious effort" to make it sound virtuosic is an interpretation put on it by a listener. I bet it was all very easy to him. After all, it was his job before he was famous

I love his Strauss improvisations, e.g:

Such joie de vivre!

[awesom_o]

I agree that was certainly some splendid playing from Cziffra.

Still, I feel it throws the idea of improvisation in the wrong direction. The direction away from people being able to do it themselves.

Presenting improvisation in such a bravado, virtuoso way has always been popular with the crowds.... it's certainly fun.

I suppose I'm just more partial towards quieter, less showy, potentially more musically thoughtful improvisations.

[theholygideons]

has anyone heard this,

he improvises on some beautiful melodies at 4:30

[ted]

Still, I feel it throws the idea of improvisation in the wrong direction. The direction away from people being able to do it themselves.

That is another very acute observation. I entirely agree but thousands wouldn't. The joy of spontaneous creation is the rightful possession of every player, regardless of technique, knowledge and musical ability. That is not to say that all bravura in improvisation is bad, just that it is an optional element like any other - "a" way, not "the" way.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

has anyone heard this,

he improvises on some beautiful melodies at 4:30

Thanks for this - I have heard the audio previously, but not seen it!

I agree that was certainly some splendid playing from Cziffra.

Still, I feel it throws the idea of improvisation in the wrong direction. The direction away from people being able to do it themselves.

To an extent I agree. To return to the start of this thread, the answer is undoubtedly YES. Can anyone else improvise like Cziffra? I think NO. What he does is on such a high level technically and completely sui generis. In any case, I don't think people should try to emulate anyone else's improvisation but should try to find their own voice. I think improvisation is one of the most potentially honest forms of self-expression open to a musician.

[ted]

Also, capacity to imitate or incapability of being imitated are dubious yardsticks of quality in the arts. It is a pretty natural inclination though, I suppose, to think they are such criteria, or at least I did for years. We often hear people say about a painting or a piece of music, "Anybody could do that." Perhaps they could, but the point is that they do not do it. It is not so much that such statements are factually incorrect, but rather that it doesn't matter, that art is not about imposing linear gradations of merit anyway. Nowadays, of course, I give scant thought to whether I could imitate anything, because I see it as having little relevance. What matters is my personal perception of the end product, in music the sound, and nothing else. It is possible, and frequently fruitful, however, to emulate attractive individual properties of other players; that is a way of learning.

[awesom_o]

I think improvisation is one of the most potentially honest forms of self-expression open to a musician.

I agree with that..... which is why improvisers like Art Tatum or Cziffra, while I respect their  chops, don't really do it for me musically.

 Cziffra's music never did it for me, I must confess. I love his arrangement of the Blue Danube and I accept that only his scintillating personality could have come up with such a fireworks show..... but on the whole I find his interpretations to be grotesque. 

Improvisation exists in many forms. Some artists like to take a song that people know, and add a million notes to it.

That can be fun, I guess. I'm more interested in improvisation as a musically spontaneous act.

If we keep the same million notes in our back pocket all the time, ready to throw them at the nearest tune at the drop of a hat,  we risk becoming predictable.

[awesom_o]

Here is my old improvisation professor.

I have since taken a slightly more consonant path myself... but Anto can do absolutely anything he wants at the instrument.

His technique can be frightening to behold.

[awesom_o]

ONE MIGHTY UNIT OF !0...... not two feeble units of 5.

[ted]

That's right. Thinking through ten fingers at once, with any finger doing duty anywhere, didn't come to me until about ten years ago but it's the way I mostly improvise now. Trouble is, many of the styles we learn to play in when young have rigidly distinct left and right hand functions, and that process becomes a habit. I enjoy those recordings of Tatum playing at a private party at Heindorf's house in the fifties, when he didn't have to compete or maintain a professional image. There are noises of talking and drinking but his playing seems to me more musical and less physical, and is the better for it.

[awesom_o]

I've never heard those recordings of Tatum but it sounds like I'd love them!

My only objection to certain styles of improvisation is the message they send.

 Hearing an improvisation by Tatum or Cziffra, I think 'wow..... that guy REALLY REALLY knows what he's doing'


And is that really the point of improvisation?

[ted]

No, it isn't for me, not at all, but it probably is for a lot of people, and I suppose the world of music is big enough to embrace a colossal diversity of personal criteria as to what constitutes "good" in improvisation. With me, this is dead simple - am I struck on a deep level by the actual sounds ? The  playing act, the spectacle, is a very secondary consideration; and by deep, I don't necessarily imply serious, weighty or gloomy. I like to be surprised and transported by beauty, rather than dumbfounded by brute force skills of brain, ear or fingers.