Chord attacks dont' work !!

[Daniel_piano]

Chord attacks don't work !!
Or in better words: they're not working for me
I'm getting dangerously frustrated with all of this
I've been reading everything from Chang and Bernhard saying that to get fast speed you must play two or more notes as chord and breaking them into separate fast notes
I've been trying this chord attack stuff for weeks and I got only pain in my hand tendons and no kind of progress
First of all after all the work with the chord attacks the chunk speed is still way slower than finals speed, contrary to claims that I'm supposed to reach super-fast speed or even higher than final speed needing to lower it to the desired speed
On the second place the whole esecution, even when it's fast, is sloppy and inaccurate, the tone is awful and my hand hurt a lot
Either I'm missing something important here or this will secure me a tendonitis

Here's the bar I've been practicing (hand separate):
Hideous Bar

If you can utilize chord attacks with this HS, get higher than final speed with a good tone and without breaking your hand... just let me know what your secret is

Thanks
Daniel

[Sketchee]

I'm not sure where the difficulty is here but I'll try to explain how I would play this measure.  Practice the first four notes of the right hand played as a chord. Just press and hold the chord; the written fingering looks fine to me.  Now with just these first four notes play them slowly and evenly.  Try staccatto and legato.  Use your whole arm in a slight  counter clockwise motion.  For me it helps to remember to keep my elbow up and out since I have a tendency to keep it stiff against  my body sometimes.  It shouldn't be too long before your rolling these notes quite evenly and quickly using this motion.

Then do the same undertempo motion practice with the next three notes (marked 5, 4 , 2)   First play them together as a chord to familiarize yourself with the fingering and then slowly seperately and evenly, stacatto and legato.

Then you'll want to put these chunks together.  Some recommend immediate overlapping, but for me I find it helps to know where your going.  Try playing them slowly as the two chords described above.  Practice going from the A on 1to the F# on 4.  I think at tempo I'd personally use the so called "thumb over" method here (just moving to the next chord without any thumb under), but it's probably a good idea to at least practice with finger legato slowly to get familiar with the ideal sound of the beats.

After you have that much, work on the rest in the same way.  Look and listen for problems in evenness and consider how best to tackle them. Hope that helps a little

[Sketchee]

On second those , I don't like 4-5-2 there at all for the second chord.    Try 2-3-1

[jazzyprof]

I agree with sketchee.  This passage was designed for the chord attack!  It works beautifully here.  You can play the first four notes blindingly fast using the chord attack and the fingering shown.  The next three notes I would finger as 2-4-1.  That you can also play infinitely fast.  The transition between those two is where you need to practice as suggested by sketchee.

[Daniel_piano]

Maybe the problem is that I'm not good at rolling chords
I've done everything you said
It didn't work
Playing and repeating the chords is easy enough
When I roll/brek them the movement is sloppy and the soun uneven
When I try to see if I've aquired any speed from this practice, I find I didn't
After 15 minutes of alternating hands chord attacks practice I wasn't able to play those part any speeder
In fact it seems to me that after having rolled the chord the speed should be super fast but not fo r me
After rolling the chord the speed Im able to play the piece at is still slow and if I try any faster I reach a speed wall and my hand tense and hurt

Don't know, I'm doing anything as explained...yet this chord attack practice is not working for me since after the chord attack practice I've got no kind of progress, I play the piece exactly as before like I hadn't never done the chord attack practice or any practice for that matter

Help

Daniel

[Mycroft]

The chord attack *IS* playing the piece.  There should be no difference.  When you are starting with the chord attack, of course you're playing all the notes at one time, but you're still playing the piece.  If you're doing something different when you're playing the piece from your chord attack practice, then you're doing it wrong.

If you're having problems rolling the chord, then you need to practice that all by itself.  If you can drum your fingers on a table, then you should be able to roll a chord.   On a table, start with drumming your fingers, then try doing it by rotating your hand rather than drumming your fingers.  Then try doing it by placing the fingers in order so that they hit the table in order when you lower your hand to the table.  Three different ways of attacking a chord, depending on what chord it is and how you want to play it.

If you can do that, go to the keyboard and start with all your fingers at once, then turn your hand slightly so that only one finger hits first and all the others quickly follow suit in order.  So you're drumming your fingers but you're not using any finger muscles to do it.  KEEP YOUR HAND RELAXED!

Once you can do that with the first chord, slow down the hand rotation until you're at the proper tempo and then start over with the second hand position.

Once you can do both positions at the proper tempo, then start over, focussing on just the position change.  So you're playing all the notes at the same time in each position, just changing the position.  KEEP YOUR HAND RELAXED!

When you have the position change down, then start rolling each of the chords.  Slightly at first so you have a very fast drum, position change and then another fast drum of the fingers.  As you slow down the rolling, eventually you should be at the same speed as the position change and you'll be playing the whole two hand positions at something faster than tempo (only restricted by the amount of time it takes you to do the position change.  Then you can slow down until you're at tempo.

Don't try to do all that in one session, especially if you start tensing up.

The next challenge is getting your right hand up to the high A in time.  There are a couple of ways to do that.  (While the left hand is playing its three notes of course.) 

One way is to practice jumping an octave.  So if you're using the published fingering, you focus on moving your pinky from the lower A to the upper A.  If you purposefully miss the A, you can feel the gap between Bb and C# and quickly slide your finger down to A, bumping over the Bb.  That way you're sure that you're on A and not missed to G or B.

The other way is to quickly put your thumb on the lower A (you already know where that is because you're pinky is sitting on it), and then stretch your hand an octave up to the upper A with your pinky.  If you do this, then you're already in position for the next three notes.

[Daniel_piano]

Thanks for your replies
I think I've got the chord rolling movement, but I've to work on it
I've still some problem with speed though...

Once you can do that with the first chord, slow down the hand rotation until you're at the proper tempo and then start over with the second hand position.

Now, this is the problem
As soon as I roll the chord and I switch from infinitely-fast speed to slightly lower than infinitely-fast speed, the speed is still lower than final speed
After the practice with the chord attack the speed is indeed fast, but the pieces I'm practicing require super-fast speed and for whatever reason rolling the chord doesn't bring me near that speed
In other words, after rolling the chord there's nothing to slow down, but actually something to speed up as even at a bit lower than infinite-speed the speed is still lower than final speed

This bars for example:
I used the chord attack practice with it and I got very fast, but this bars need super-fast speed and I'm not getting it with the chord attack

The speed is: dotted quarter = 98

Bar

Any thought?


Also, I understand that the movements I do during both the chord attack and the chord rolling involve arm weight without any finger movement
But I wonder if this is the movement with which I will eventually perform the piece, or if the movements change somewhat from "practice" to "performance" and I'm supposed to use more fingers movement than just arm weight when I perform the piece

Thanks again
Daniel

[xvimbi]

Any thought?

It looks like playing four notes at speed is too much. You will need to break it down further. Try only the first two notes, then notes 2 and 3 and so on. Then go to clusters of three notes, etc.

[mosis]

Those are mean cross rhythms.

Which piece is that?

[Daniel_piano]

Gee, I forgot to say that all notes are flat except F (E flat minor tonality)

It's just a study, nice and tough, but a study

Daniel

[Daniel_piano]

Any thought?

It looks like playing four notes at speed is too much. You will need to break it down further. Try only the first two notes, then notes 2 and 3 and so on. Then go to clusters of three notes, etc.

It keep not working
I can play 1-2 at speed easily
I can play 2-3 at speed easily
I can play 3-4, 4-5, and 5-6 at speed easily
I can also play 1-2-3, 2-3-4-, 4-5-6 at speed easily

But when I put them together the whole sequence falls apart
The speed is lower than "dotted quarter=98" I keep sliding from the black keys and my hand get tense even though I'm relaxed

There's another thing I don't understand
How many times do I have to repeate a chord before rolling it
And do I have to alternate with or switching to left hand before coming back to right hand and rolling the previously played chord?

Thanks
Daniel

[xvimbi]

But when I put them together the whole sequence falls apart.
The speed is lower than "dotted quarter=98" I keep sliding from the black keys and my hand get tense even though I'm relaxed

That is of course a contradiction. To clarify: do you mean you can't play 1-2-3-4? What is happening between 3 and 4 that would cause that? Are you releasing 3 when playing 4? With "releasing", I mean do you close your hand immediately whenever possible while you move to the next key? If you keep your hand stretched, i.e. with finger 5 still on or above note 1 while you are about to play note 4, you'll end up with a tense hand. Your hand needs to be closed at all times between two consecutive notes.

Fingers sliding off black keys is a matter of accuracy and, in my experience, mostly a matter of not moving the hand properly so that fingers end up misaligned with the keys. It often helps to play with flat fingers (are you playing with curled fingers?), with fingers going across the key (i.e. not co-linear with the key) or even with more than one finger (say, fingers 4 and 5).

[Daniel_piano]

But when I put them together the whole sequence falls apart.
The speed is lower than "dotted quarter=98" I keep sliding from the black keys and my hand get tense even though I'm relaxed

That is of course a contradiction. To clarify: do you mean you can't play 1-2-3-4? What is happening between 3 and 4 that would cause that? Are you releasing 3 when playing 4? With "releasing", I mean do you close your hand immediately whenever possible while you move to the next key? If you keep your hand stretched, i.e. with finger 5 still on or above note 1 while you are about to play note 4, you'll end up with a tense hand. Your hand needs to be closed at all times between two consecutive notes.

I can play 1-2-3-4 quite easily even if not that fast
I can't play 1-2-3-4-5-6 as when I come back Bb and Gb I mess everything
I'm actually keeping my hand stretched as this help me to come back to Bb after having played the Bb one octave lower

Fingers sliding off black keys is a matter of accuracy and, in my experience, mostly a matter of not moving the hand properly so that fingers end up misaligned with the keys. It often helps to play with flat fingers (are you playing with curled fingers?), with fingers going across the key (i.e. not co-linear with the key) or even with more than one finger (say, fingers 4 and 5).

What do you mean by flat fingers?
Can you explain me the exact movement to play with flat fingers?
I'm playing black keys with the tips of my fingers, the same with white keys


I don't want to bother the forum too much but I've some new problem with two new chunks

Chunks

The problem is the peculiar distance between the notes
In the first chunk the LH, notes 1-2, they're so far apart that it's not easy to play them not even as a chord

In the second chunk the RH, notes 2-3, they're not so distant  one from the other but they're in a strange position with all the three black keys in the between
Playing a chord here is possible only if I lift my wrist a lot, because if I keep my hand flat it's not easy to play them without also hitting a black keys between them

Any ideas on how to bring up to speed legato notes that are in such distant and strange positions?

Thanks a lot for your help
Daniel

[xvimbi]

I can play 1-2-3-4 quite easily even if not that fast
I can't play 1-2-3-4-5-6 as when I come back Bb and Gb I mess everything
I'm actually keeping my hand stretched as this help me to come back to Bb after having played the Bb one octave lower

Keeping your hand stretched is not a good thing, particularly since you seem to be playing with curved fingers. Try this:
1. relax your hand, keep the fingers straight and move them up and down quickly.
2. spread the fingers in your hand apart, keep the fingers straight and move them up and down quickly
3. spread the fingers in your hand apart, curl the fingers and move them up and down quickly

Which one is the fastest and easiest?

What do you mean by flat fingers?

Anywhere from the natural curve that your fingers make when you let the arm hang down the side of your body to entirely flat.

Can you explain me the exact movement to play with flat fingers?

It's well explained in Chang's book. Briefly, you move your fingers at the knuckles. Sometimes, you do not move them at all, but just let the hand fall down on a key. Your fingers touch the keys with the fleshy underside of the last segment of your finger, or even the entire underside, not with their tips.

I'm playing black keys with the tips of my fingers, the same with white keys

Bad! Different passages require different techniques. There are places for curled fingers, and there are places for flat fingers. One needs to master the entire range. In fact, curled fingers are overrated (flame war starts now).

As the exercise above should have demonstrated, it is not as easy to play fast with curled fingers as it is with flat fingers. Most people find that the faster they need to play, the flatter the fingers end up being. In addition, it is even more difficult to move the fingers quickly when the hand is stretched. That's why correctly moving the hand across the keyboard is so important. Don't keep your hand stretched when you move back to the Bb. Instead, make sure your hand is closed, i.e. all five fingers are next to each other and relaxed when you play the preceding Bb, then quickly shift your hand over the Bb an octave higher. At this point, your hand will likely be stretched to some extent, but while you are playing the Bb, you must close the hand again in order to relax it and to align the fingers with the keys underneath (some people call this the "home position" of the hand).

To me, moving the hand efficiently is more important than training the fingers to move up and down at any angle and under tension.
 
(flame war is in full swing...)

I don't want to bother the forum too much ...

So, then let's first solve this problem before going on to another one.

[Sketchee]

Maybe the problem is that I'm not good at rolling chords

I did read all the replies after this, but I thought I'd respond here.  If rolling chords is a problem, I think what you should do actually is practice your scales.  You may even already be doing practicing scales.  When you hear a scale played evenly, this is the same technique as rolling a chord only you're moving at smaller intervals.  That same even sound is what you want in your broken chords.  The larger intervals may feel different but if there is no pain in reaching them, you'll eventually be able to adapt with practice. (I've gotten used to wierder ones! CDC played 1-2-5)

Perhaps when your rolling your chord you're think of just brushing off the chord with a literal roll; I can't see what you're doing of course, but this is one way that one would get a sloppy arpeggio.  Instead think of it as a scale with large intervals and try to achieve that same clear and even sound.   Another thing that you want to always focus on in passages is ascending and descending--just like with scales.  Keep in mind when you're switching directions and when you practice, split passages up with this in mind; keep the upper most or lower most note from the previous arpeggio, even if there was a leap.

It was said that Liszt's scales sounded like "hot pearls on velvet" and that's the clear and even sound you want.  You want to hear every note even when you play pure legato.  That's is why I suggested practicing staccatto for that clarity of each note.  Don't think too far ahead and don't worry about playing fast.  Play as fast as you can evenly, even if that's slow or even if you're making every eighth note a quarter note.  You want to be familiar with the sound of even playing rather than just a roll of a chord.

Those are a few things I can think of that could cause a problem with rolling a chord.  If you can already play your scales well then consider how you learned them and how that technique and feel can be applied to your arps

[xvimbi]

Don't think too far ahead and don't worry about playing fast.  Play as fast as you can evenly, even if that's slow or even if you're making every eighth note a quarter note.  You want to be familiar with the sound of even playing rather than just a roll of a chord.

I'd like to chime in here. Honestly, I don't see the benefit of using the chord attack in this particular instance. There is no special technique required, so you won't hit speed wallas when you go from slow to fast. It seems that you need to get the motions figured out at slow speed first.

It is much more important to get the rhythm right (even sound, as Sketchee says), then to play a wash of notes at high speed. This is also important with respect to the left hand. Although, the rhythm of this section is very simple (there are no mean cross rhythms, as stated by someone above), you will need to reliably master it.

In short, I recommend starting slow. This will help with your accuracy problems, and it will help you figuring out your motions in a thoughtful way. Play the passage backwards and forwards and in a circular fashion, as Sketchee recommended. This is a much neglected "trick".

Don't worry about legato at this point. Who says you must play at speed? You are not going to perform this study, are you? It is therefore better to take the opportunity to acquire technique and a deeper understanding of the whole process than trying to get the notes out as fast as you can.

[timothy42b]

I have a traditional teacher, but I have been reading chang and Bernhard, and trying to apply this stuff including the chord attacks.  I've been playing since the beginning of September, so about 2.5 months.

Last night chord attacks seemed to work for me for the first time. 

Perhaps it is a matter of time.  When you read chang or Bernhard, you might get the impression you'll be a virtuoso in a week.  Why not, with maximum efficiency?  and maybe for some it will be true.  For most of us it won't come quite that fast. 

[dam]

I was just wondering if chord attacks were not bad for alignment... When you play an octave chord (for example), your fingers can't be aligned with the keys.

Shall we explain this please ?

Dam

[Sketchee]

I was just wondering if chord attacks were not bad for alignment... When you play an octave chord (for example), your fingers can't be aligned with the keys.

Shall we explain this please ?

Dam

I'm not sure what you mean with this?  Why can't your fingers be aligned with the keys?

[dam]

Maybe I didn't really understand what alignment means. But I thought the fingers had to be aligned with the keys and the forearm (in the horizontal direction). Unless it concerns the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fingers ?
It involves very often hands and arms motions to adjust this alignment.
But when you play a chord, your hand and arm are "in the centre of your motion" and alignment is impossible according to me...

Any ideas ?

[Sketchee]

I've never heard of this concept. Maybe someone can explain it to the both of us 

I play almost everything in the form of chords/groups/hand positions which for me simplifies so much.

[Daniel_piano]

I don't know what is not working
Talking about the first chunk I've asked help about on this thread: I understood everything you've said, I've done exactly as you've said, I've completely understood chord attacks and I've practiced them perfectly
They don't work
I'm not really playing my chunk faster than end speed, noe even fast as end speed
And after some chord attack practice the instead of playing better I play worse, the chunk lacks precision and tone
Maybe this piece is faster than together, I don't know what other to believe
 

Daniel

[Mycroft]

I think you're doing something wrong, but I also think there's no way for us to tell what it is because we can't see what it is you're doing.

[Daniel_piano]

I think you're doing something wrong, but I also think there's no way for us to tell what it is because we can't see what it is you're doing.

I followed your instructions
They're were easy to follow, it not possible I've misunderstood them 
 

Daniel

[Sketchee]

I'm not sure how else to explain it but I'll try.  I think this a very old method of learning pieces;  I've used it long before I came to this forum myself.  In person, I've walked people through sections fairly quickly using it.  I think it's easier to explain visually than here though.

Playing the arpeggiated chord in the same manner you'd play your scales should have an even sound.  My professor explains it as "You should hear every note".  Put your hand on top of the notes with each finger on the appropriate note.  Then after that press each note in sequence. Do not just "roll the chord", press each note individually within time/rhythm and be sure to release the previous note before going on to the next.  Don't have your fingers too relaxed. For me the chord is kind of a memory or sightreading shortcut, since you recall or see that chord and then you can quickly know the direction of the piece.

Other than that, you should probably discuss with your teacher how he/she would recommend practicing the section. 

[Daniel_piano]

Thanks, I'll try this system if it works with my stupid hands

Other than that, you should probably discuss with your teacher how he/she would recommend practicing the section. 

Now, my teacher want to me to repeat the piece super slowly hundred of times, and then set the metronome up a notch every day starting from 50, passing through 52-54-56-58-60-62 and so on till I reach 100 bpm in a month
After having read all Bernhard messages is impossible for me to come back to think kind of practice
So, if I'm not going to become able to use Bernhard methods and chord attacks and repeated notes group or your advice I won't have no method left for me to practice
                      

_____________________________________________________________
By the way: I've just read a Chang message (not on this forum) where he makes completely clear that EVERY bars of a piece should be practiced with chord attacks, that they should be used always and in every situation and that you shouldn't sightread slowly or try to play fast, just use chord attacks
______________________________________________________________


Daniel

[Sketchee]

Thanks, I'll try this system if it works with my stupid hands

Other than that, you should probably discuss with your teacher how he/she would recommend practicing the section. 

Now, my teacher want to me to repeat the piece super slowly hundred of times, and then set the metronome up a notch every day starting from 50, passing through 52-54-56-58-60-62 and so on till I reach 100 bpm in a month
After having read all Bernhard messages is impossible for me to come back to think kind of practice
So, if I'm not going to become able to use Bernhard methods and chord attacks and repeated notes group or your advice I won't have no method left for me to practice
                      

Well the important thing is that you find a method that works for you.  Bernhard and Chang aren't just trying to press their methods/advice as a sole solution, but as ones that they know have worked just as your teacher is.  There's nothing revolutionary here as most of us pianists have experimented with trial and error.  There's no miracle cure that will get you to be a horowitz style pianist over a few nights practice in these methods.  You still have to build up over time.  Chang's book does say that you should practice at slower tempo which is what your teacher suggests; he just emphasizes that in your undertempo practice you should use the same motions as you would if you were playing fast ("slow motion" practice).  If you're playing isn't smooth and even, the metronome can help yo hear the difference between the steady beat and the rhythm that you're playing.  After you adapt to the sound of even notes, as I was saying a above, then you can really take advantage of chord attack to learn passages quickly.

I don't personally like the term "chord attack" because it can make it sound like you're just going to roll the chord and it's going to come out perfectly even and smooth.  That smoothness is something that is learned and practiced and comes from a lot of variable factors in technique--a lot of which we can't see to say what's going on in your practice sessions.  Once you acquire the technique for smooth arpeggios though, you'll be able to apply that technique quickly sightreading and learning new pieces. 

[xvimbi]

Forgive me if I am getting a bit impatient, but I don't think you fully understand the idea of the chord-attack. I am still waiting for more explanations why you are having problems with this bar:

Bar

You said you are playing the first five notes with the hand stretched over the Bb-Bb octave, with curled fingers and striking the keys with your fingertips, i.e. the tips are vertical. It already hurts to just think about this, and it hurts even more to reproduce it, and I have explained above why that is. This can't work.

Also, Dam is quite right: if you simply hold your hand above the keys and then play with your fingers, not only will your hand constantly be tensed up, but you also have to make all kinds of unhealthy contortions. In this particular case, you end up with severe ulnar deviation, i.e. your hand is rotated clockwise with your thumb aligned with your forearm. If you play your four notes rapidly for 10,000 times in this hand position, you end up with an injury. The reason is simple: the octave span is much too large. In order to play the first four notes quickly, you need to rotate your hand as you play, i.e the top Bb you play with your pinky, then you rotate the hand a little to play the next note, and so on. Always relax the hand completely when you are done with one note, do not strecth. When you need to move back to the top Bb, you simply rotate your hand back to the initial position. The rotation will resemble an clockwise cartwheel motion, which when used with flat fingers gives you an incredible span without leading to a tense hand.

Now, my teacher want to me to repeat the piece super slowly hundred of times, and then set the metronome up a notch every day starting from 50, passing through 52-54-56-58-60-62 and so on till I reach 100 bpm in a month

By the way: I've just read a Chang message (not on this forum) where he makes completely clear that EVERY bars of a piece should be practiced with chord attacks, that they should be used always and in every situation and that you shouldn't sightread slowly or try to play fast, just use chord attacks

Statements that contain the words NEVER, EVERY, ALWAYS, etc. must be scrutinized very critically, even when they come from respected authorities. In fact, you can do practically WHATEVER you want, if you know what you are doing. The chord-attack is designed for those who don't know what they are doing, i.e. for those who do not have flawless technique yet and who don't know what the correct motions are. No advanced pianist (I know of) uses the chord-attack approach. This is because they know how to play any passage up to speed, even if they need some time to polish it. Chord-attack is an approach that is meant to minimize the danger of getting into bad habits that often arise from speeding up motions. However, if you have identified the correct motions, there is  NOTHING wrong with slowly ramping up the speed.

[Daniel_piano]

Forgive me if I am getting a bit impatient, but I don't think you fully understand the idea of the chord-attack. I am still waiting for more explanations why you are having problems with this bar:

Bar

I'm having problem with this bar (at that speed) because I simply can't play it at that speed
Even using chord attack the "rolled-chord" is not that fast, it's way slower
Then I've been told that I have to roll chord by not moving my fingers only my wrist, but this movement clearly works only with the practice, as when I play the piece I've to use a different movement that involve finger movements (my teacher wouldn't let me play this piece just with wrist rotation and my fingers not moving)
So, with flat fingers I can play at a speed much slower than final speed the first four notes after a lot of chord attack practice
You said not to keep my hand stratched
But since the notes are legato it is not possible to close the hand after the first four notes as if you close your hand you can't reach the 5 and 6 notes, only with a jump... but that would then be staccato
I understand what you say about rotating my hand and I think I'm doing it when I play the chunk
Yet, I don't understand how can you play a 4 notes chord here without having the thumb aligned with your forearm
So, playing a 4 notes chord here would result in ulnar deviation, it seems to me

Anyway, I'm forgetting for a moment about this piece as I've break my hand trying to play this fast
I'm now more interested about the first one First Chunk
I've used chord attack practice here
The same problem as above: the "just rotate your wrist without moving your fingers" can work in the practice but cannot be used when you "play" the piece at your lesson
The rolled 4 notes chord is not as fast as final speed would be and if I just practice 2 notes chord attacks, when I put them together it's just sloppy and slow as when I practice a 4 notes chord
Of course when there's the hand displacement I've more problems as even after a lot of lateral displacement practice I keep missing the key
The funny thing is that instead of improving, this whole part is completely worsened and I don't seem to be able to play it anymore 


Thanks a lot for your help
Daniel

[jazzyprof]

Forgive me if I am getting a bit impatient, but I don't think you fully understand the idea of the chord-attack. I am still waiting for more explanations why you are having problems with this bar:

The funny thing is that instead of improving, this whole part is completely worsened and I don't seem to be able to play it anymore 


Thanks a lot for your help
Daniel

I can see that even the usually stoic xvimbi is getting impatient!  Daniel, there are simply some things that cannot merely be imparted through words.  You need the visual component.  Why don't you have your teacher illustrate the proper technique for you?  Do you have a teacher you trust?  If you are having difficulty with all the detailed instructions people have given here regarding the proper hand motions, you are risking serious injury by constant repetition of the wrong movements. 

[xvimbi]

I'm having problem with this bar (at that speed) because I simply can't play it at that speed
Even using chord attack the "rolled-chord" is not that fast, it's way slower

Chord attack is not equal to rolled chord. They are opposites.

Then I've been told that I have to roll chord by not moving my fingers only my wrist, but this movement clearly works only with the practice, as when I play the piece I've to use a different movement that involve finger movements (my teacher wouldn't let me play this piece just with wrist rotation and my fingers not moving)

First of all, I still don't like that you keep saying "I have been told...". Nobody is really telling you to do anything. Those are mere suggestions, for you to find out if they work or not. You don't have to follow them to the point.
Second, rolling a chord may or may not involve wrist/arm/shoulder motions. In this particular case, I don't see how you can play that sequence without such additional motions.

So, with flat fingers I can play at a speed much slower than final speed the first four notes after a lot of chord attack practice
You said not to keep my hand stratched
But since the notes are legato it is not possible to close the hand after the first four notes as if you close your hand you can't reach the 5 and 6 notes, only with a jump... but that would then be staccato

I also said that when you go from the bottom Bb to the top Bb, your hand will be stretched, but only for a moment. That is OK as long as you close the hand immediately after arriving at the top Bb. Playing a large interval legato involves a stretching motion followed by a closing motion, like the movement of an inchworm.

I understand what you say about rotating my hand and I think I'm doing it when I play the chunk
Yet, I don't understand how can you play a 4 notes chord here without having the thumb aligned with your forearm
So, playing a 4 notes chord here would result in ulnar deviation, it seems to me

Yes, that is why you cannot use the chord attack for this segment. Part of the problem is to figure out when the chord attack can be used and when not.

Anyway, I'm forgetting for a moment about this piece as I've break my hand trying to play this fast.

That is not surprising giving your description of how you play it.

I've used chord attack practice here
The same problem as above: the "just rotate your wrist without moving your fingers" can work in the practice but cannot be used when you "play" the piece at your lesson

I think this does not work at all. There is one big mis-conception that was mentioned several times, but I didn't have the energy to straighten this out. Somebody said that what CC calls "reducing the phase angle", Bernhard calls "wiggling your wrist". This is completely misleading. Reducing the phase angle means making the delay between successive notes smaller. One might achieve this by wiggling the wrist, i.e. by appropriately using motions at the wrist, but other motions may also be necessary. In fact, if you do not move your fingers, but move only the hand/wrist, your motion is "phase-locked". That is OK for the first couple of notes, but not for the following ones.

The rolled 4 notes chord is not as fast as final speed would be and if I just practice 2 notes chord attacks, when I put them together it's just sloppy and slow as when I practice a 4 notes chord
Of course when there's the hand displacement I've more problems as even after a lot of lateral displacement practice I keep missing the key
The funny thing is that instead of improving, this whole part is completely worsened and I don't seem to be able to play it anymore 

This is because you haven't completely understood what people have been suggesting. I think it may be better to work with your teacher on this. This way, you will at least have feedback. If he tells you to slowly ramp up the speed, ask him to make sure that the motions are the same at slow and fast speeds.

[Daniel_piano]

Forgive me if I am getting a bit impatient, but I don't think you fully understand the idea of the chord-attack. I am still waiting for more explanations why you are having problems with this bar:

The funny thing is that instead of improving, this whole part is completely worsened and I don't seem to be able to play it anymore 


Thanks a lot for your help
Daniel

Daniel, there are simply some things that cannot merely be imparted through words.  You need the visual component.

Then, why other people here have been able to utilize/understand Bernhard approach without help from their teachers?

Daniel

[mosis]

Hmm, I seem to have a misguided notion about chord attacks as well. I thought reducing the phase angle WAS rolling the chord, and that was part of the chord attack and parallel set exercise. I thought playing the chord attack was "phase locking." I'm confused about all those terms. xvimbi, since you seem to have a thorough understanding of this method, can you explain in detail with a simple arpeggio example? I would greatly appreciate it!

[xvimbi]

Hmm, I seem to have a misguided notion about chord attacks as well. I thought reducing the phase angle WAS rolling the chord, and that was part of the chord attack and parallel set exercise. I thought playing the chord attack was "phase locking." I'm confused about all those terms. xvimbi, since you seem to have a thorough understanding of this method, can you explain in detail with a simple arpeggio example? I would greatly appreciate it!

As I remember, you were equating "reducing the phase angle" with "wiggling the wrist". That is what I am pointing out. When you play a group of notes as a chord, the phase angle is zero, i.e. there is no delay between successive notes. You can't possibly reduce the phase angle further by rolling the chord. This is actually increasing the phase angle. Playing slowly means that there is a certain, large phase angle between successive notes, playing faster means the phase angle is decreasing, with zero (playing all notes simultaneously = chord) as the limit ("infinitely fast"). Although this way of thinking about all this is useful from a physics point of view, it is not intuitive to the non-physicist.

"Phase-locking" is playing successive notes with a delay that is determined by rigid structures rather than flexible ones. Example (simpler than an arpeggio): play an octave with the hand and the fingers held rigid. The only way to control the delay between the two notes is by adjusting the angle between the hand and the keyboard and then dropping the hand, so that one finger strikes one note before the other finger strikes the second note. If you make that angle smaller you will eventually play both notes simultaneously. In terms of an arpeggio, say three notes, one can position the tips of fingers 1, 3 and 5 slighly below the tips of the other fingers and then "roll" them over the keys. Since the hand and the fingers are "locked" in place, the process is called "phase-locked".

Does that make sense?

[jazzyprof]

Daniel, there are simply some things that cannot merely be imparted through words.  You need the visual component.

Then, why other people here have been able to utilize/understand Bernhard approach without help from their teachers?

Daniel

As an educator I know that different students have different learning styles.  Not better or worse, just different.  That is why a good teacher will adapt his/her teaching style to their student.  That is also why most pianists learn their craft through personal, hands on instruction.  Sure you can pick up certain useful concepts from reading a book or postings on the web but when difficulties arise, the personal attention of a teacher is indispensable.

[mosis]

Hmm, I seem to have a misguided notion about chord attacks as well. I thought reducing the phase angle WAS rolling the chord, and that was part of the chord attack and parallel set exercise. I thought playing the chord attack was "phase locking." I'm confused about all those terms. xvimbi, since you seem to have a thorough understanding of this method, can you explain in detail with a simple arpeggio example? I would greatly appreciate it!

As I remember, you were equating "reducing the phase angle" with "wiggling the wrist". That is what I am pointing out. When you play a group of notes as a chord, the phase angle is zero, i.e. there is no delay between successive notes. You can't possibly reduce the phase angle further by rolling the chord. This is actually increasing the phase angle. Playing slowly means that there is a certain, large phase angle between successive notes, playing faster means the phase angle is decreasing, with zero (playing all notes simultaneously = chord) as the limit ("infinitely fast"). Although this way of thinking about all this is useful from a physics point of view, it is not intuitive to the non-physicist.

"Phase-locking" is playing successive notes with a delay that is determined by rigid structures rather than flexible ones. Example (simpler than an arpeggio): play an octave with the hand and the fingers held rigid. The only way to control the delay between the two notes is by adjusting the angle between the hand and the keyboard and then dropping the hand, so that one finger strikes one note before the other finger strikes the second note. If you make that angle smaller you will eventually play both notes simultaneously. In terms of an arpeggio, say three notes, one can position the tips of fingers 1, 3 and 5 slighly below the tips of the other fingers and then "roll" them over the keys. Since the hand and the fingers are "locked" in place, the process is called "phase-locked".

Does that make sense?

So then rolling the chord refers to using finger motion, and phase locking just refers to keeping the fingers ridged and altering the wrist in such a way that some fingers fall before others?

[xvimbi]

So then rolling the chord refers to using finger motion, and phase locking just refers to keeping the fingers ridged and altering the wrist in such a way that some fingers fall before others?

Rolling chords means to play notes, which are supposed to be played simultaneously, in succession, usually from the bottom up, sometimes from the top down, or even first up and then down. The type of motion used (e.g. phase-locked vs. non-phase-locked, flexible fingers, wiggling wrist) does not matter. Other terms used in this context are "blocked" for playing a regular chord and "broken" for rolling the chord. Again, "rolling chords" and "phase-locking" are terms that cannot be compared. Phase-locking is a term that refers to technical aspects of playing the piano, whereas rolling chords is a musical concept. One can roll chords using phase-locked motions or non-phase-locked motions.

[mosis]

So then rolling the chord refers to using finger motion, and phase locking just refers to keeping the fingers ridged and altering the wrist in such a way that some fingers fall before others?

Rolling chords means to play notes, which are supposed to be played simultaneously, in succession, usually from the bottom up, sometimes from the top down, or even first up and then down. The type of motion used (e.g. phase-locked vs. non-phase-locked, flexible fingers, wiggling wrist) does not matter. Other terms used in this context are "blocked" for playing a regular chord and "broken" for rolling the chord. Again, "rolling chords" and "phase-locking" are terms that cannot be compared. Phase-locking is a term that refers to technical aspects of playing the piano, whereas rolling chords is a musical concept. One can roll chords using phase-locked motions or non-phase-locked motions.

Okay, so then what is the difference between this non-phase-locked and phase-locked motion?

Sorry. 

[xvimbi]

Okay, so then what is the difference between this non-phase-locked and phase-locked motion?

What I wrote above:

"Phase-locking" is playing successive notes with a delay that is determined by rigid structures rather than flexible ones. Example (simpler than an arpeggio): play an octave with the hand and the fingers held rigid. The only way to control the delay between the two notes is by adjusting the angle between the hand and the keyboard and then dropping the hand, so that one finger strikes one note before the other finger strikes the second note. If you make that angle smaller you will eventually play both notes simultaneously. In terms of an arpeggio, say three notes, one can position the tips of fingers 1, 3 and 5 slighly below the tips of the other fingers and then "roll" them over the keys. Since the hand and the fingers are "locked" in place, the process is called "phase-locked".

But I'll try again. Take fingers 1 and 2. The task is to play C and D serially as fast as possible. One way to do that is to have the hand hover above those two notes, then quickly lower the thumb, then finger 2 onto the keys. The hand remains quiet (or practically quiet). Using this technique you can easily vary the delay between the two notes, i.e. the phase angle. The two fingers are independent of each other, i.e. what the second finger is doing is not affected by what the first finger is doing. This is what I call "non-phase locked motion". There is no such term "non-phase locked motion", but it may be useful to introduce it to distinguish such motions from "phase-locked" motions.

You can also play the C and D by preforming the hand, such that when you lower the ENTIRE hand, the thumb strikes first, and finger two strikes second. The phase angle between the two notes is controlled by how fast you lower than hand, how much lower the thumb is relative to the second finger to start out with, how much you rotate the wrist, etc. This is "phase-locked" play. It is called "phase-locked" because the entire playing apparatus that plays those two notes remains rigid throughout the motion. What the second finger is doing depends on what the first one is doing. Practicing phase-locked motions does not lead to finger independence, whereas true "non-phase-locked" motions require, and train, finger independence. Phase-locking is a way of cheating, but can be useful under certain circumastances, e.g, for starting a fast series of notes.

Also, search for the terms "phase-lock" and "phase lock" in CC's book.

i hope this made it clear 

[Daniel_piano]

I've regained control of my pieces
I'm now practicing them the same way I practiced bach inventions years ago
I practice them little chunk by little chunk, I start very slowly but after 8 repetition my hand familiarizes with the movements and it want to go faster
After 10-20 repetitions I switch hand, until finally I join hands
So basically I always start slowly and get up to speed by repeating and repeating, familiarizing with the chunk, after few seconds my hand want to go faster by itsels
7/20 rule, rhythm variations, post practice improvements are all marvelous tools and I'm learning my piece very quickly
As Bernhard confirmed to me, it's like a patchwork
Many suggestions about not keeping my hand stretched and using flat fingers have been vital


So, I don't try anymore to play faster than final speed after the end of each session
I will first learn the piece slowly, and I will bring up to speed the next days

I've discovered I've high fever and influenza
I had it already 5 days ago without knowing it but today is very high
I don't know, but maybe I wasn't able to make sense of all the chord attacks information because of my condition
I can't use chord attacks/parallel sets now as I'm compeltely confused and I'll break my hands apart
I'll try again but I would be helpful if I could have a complete explanation point by point outside of these thread, as will always associate the information here with the migraine I had this day due to my high fever
Maybe it would be also the chance to make it clear to all the other people in the forum that like me didn't understand a yota

I've a web cam so maybe I will be able to make a video with my hand movements when I do a chord attack/parallel set to see what I'm doing wrong
Or maybe someone who knows chord attack and have a web cam can make a video to show us the right movements

Thanks
Sorry for making people here impatient

Daniel


 

[mound]

Take it easy on yourself my friend! It sounds like you are working too hard, especially since you're sick..

Why don't you give yourself a little vacation for the next 5-7 days.. Just relax, stay away from your piano and don't give any thought to any of the stuff on this forum (don't even read it)..  just disconnect yourself from it all and take a breather. Get healthy, and then sit down at the piano.. You'll probably find things suddenly make more sense

be well

-Paul