I can't mess around with black keys

[ranniks]

Whenever I just play what's on my mind on the piano, it always sounds not horrible. But when I mix in black notes it just comes out weird.

I know it has to do with scales. Let's say I start with playing only white keys while holding the pedal. Then I add an F sharp, but if I play F white too, it sounds kind of worse.

Is this lack of experience?

[awesom_o]

Try playing around with all of the white keys EXCEPT for F natural, and instead of having F natural, use F sharp.


See if you like that sound! It is called the Lydian mode.

It is an extremely powerful and ancient musical scale!

[prestoconfuocco]

When playing with only white keys, adding an F sharp can cause a lot of musical tension, and if you combine it with an F natural it doesn't sit well in your ear.
If you want to use F sharp either let go of the pedal, or don't use F or G at the same time.
Another suggestion is that if you want to use plenty of black keys you can simply improvise in D flat major.

[prestoconfuocco]

Try playing around with all of the white keys EXCEPT for F natural, and instead of having F natural, use F sharp.


See if you like that sound! It is called the Lydian mode.

It is an extremely powerful and ancient musical scale!

Dude, improvising in Lydian is a real pain. All of the harmonic functions are completely different :\

[ranniks]

Try playing around with all of the white keys EXCEPT for F natural, and instead of having F natural, use F sharp.

See if you like that sound! It is called the Lydian mode.

It is an extremely powerful and ancient musical scale!

It works! It doesn't break the 'harmonic' soundbuilding that happens when you play a sudden f sharp in the c major scale while holding the pedal.

But the only problem; whereas before I randomly played notes until it sounded well (white notes), I can't do it now. Or maybe it's because I need to practise more. Because you can't just do random notes in the Lydian mode, because if you do that, chance exists that you accidentally hit the f natural key.

Either way.....I can only marvel more at what Mozart and co did with composing; damn.

[dima_76557]

But the only problem; whereas before I randomly played notes until it sounded well (white notes), I can't do it now. Or maybe it's because I need to practise more. Because you can't just do random notes in the Lydian mode, because if you do that, chance exists that you accidentally hit the f natural key.

You don't have to practise much more, ranniks, just differently. As I wrote in another post yesterday, every scale gives a different feel in the hand because it has a different, a unique shape (black and white). Even when you improvise, you "pre-feel" the sounds you hear in your head in hand shapes. You never play the "right" notes accidentally. If you want to play Lydian very well, you simply take it in chunks of 5 notes (doesn't sound good, but it's very effective), starting on every step of the scale/mode, until that scale/mode lies well in your hands. Also try it without looking down at the keys. When you can do that (especially with both hands), you simply can't miss your positions anymore. I'll just copy my post litterally, so you'll see what you have to do:

Every scale, arpeggio, chord (or part of it - if it is a big chord) has a shape or a structure of shapes which you should first be able to feel and recognize in your hands as a block/chunk. As long as you cannot distinguish the shapes of different scales in your hands with eyes closed (basically two positions that repeat themselves), it makes not much sense to practise the separate notes/fingers in those scales. D, E and A triads, for example feel the same in your hand (white-black-white). B is the best scale to start (two groups: one white and two black - one white and three black), and it feels like no other scale in your hands. This principle is called "proprioception", and it is much more important for a good technique than repeatedly drilling your fingers.

I hope this compensates for the negative impression you have about me from the "talent" thread. Being a talent is your own decision, but you have to do it right now. Don't wait for things to happen from ineffective practising techniques, done over a long period of time. All you will get from that is negative mindsets. Good luck!

EDIT: Although you have to know the theory of scales, modes, chords and their construction in your head, your hand has to "know" their shapes (black and white structure) thoroughly, because you cannot consciously think about that while playing music. Instead of training the fingers for "strength and agility" (the traditional approach), give more attention to how the hand feels when it meets this or that shape, so it will be able to remember, recall, retrieve the unique sensations of this or that technical/musical formula, and do the work for you subconsciously while you are focusing your brain on things of a higher order. This is usually the most effective solution to the problem of reluctant fingers.

[hfmadopter]

This is usually the most effective solution to the problem of reluctant fingers.

This makes a few times now I've seen your posts on the hand shaping issue and I like the concept! It gives a bit of a fresh view to what we ultimately end up doing after years of practice without realizing it. With this in mind up front, I could see faster gains to keyboard control. I must read more about this, because I literally had not thought of hand positions in this way till now.

[dima_76557]

This makes a few times now I've seen your posts on the hand shaping issue and I like the concept! It gives a bit of a fresh view to what we ultimately end up doing after years of practice without realizing it. With this in mind up front, I could see faster gains to keyboard control. I must read more about this, because I literally had not thought of hand positions in this way till now.

I've learned that (and much, much more) from Franz Liszt, or more precisely: from his Technical Exercises.

I started realizing the deeper and transcendental meaning of it all since I was advised to practise on a silent keyboard. It's funny, but you don't need aural feedback to learn this. The aural feedback is good for working on art, touch, and tone, but before you do that, you should learn this rational approach to piano technique VERY thoroughly, ultimately without looking at the keys. Saves you a lifetime of athletic torture exercises at the instrument!

P.S.: Just to make sure: you don't practise separate fingers anymore. All you do is "chunk" passages with the hands into comfortable positions. No stretching beyond natural limits! No excessive pushing, etc. Actually, it's an exercise for the brain. Nothing physical or athletic. It's sensory, tactile.

[dima_76557]

Just to make sure: you don't practise separate fingers anymore. All you do is "chunk" passages with the hands into comfortable positions. No stretching beyond natural limits! No excessive pushing, etc. Actually, it's an exercise for the brain. Nothing physical or athletic. It's sensory, tactile.

One element I forgot to mention in this approach is the following: in some passages, it may turn out to be VERY useful if you don't take the thumb as part of the position, but as a separate note, to emphasize its role as a pivot from one position to another. The brain will understand and recall that next time. I learned that principle from watching Rubinstein and Michelangeli a lot, who never really seem to touch the keys with the thumb unless they have to to quickly play a note with it and/or hold it. You should never lift the thumb up in a stressed position, though, because unnecessary muscular tension in the hand tends to blur the accurate picture of the "chunks" for the brain.

[ranniks]

Thank you Dima. I didn't realise that I could do that with practising.

I'm going to approach it like this (taking in what you said) begin with 3 white notes, then move 3 notes up each note. Eventually I will come at the part of: E F sharp G.

[hfmadopter]

One element I forgot to mention in this approach is the following:

Thanks for the lengthy explanation. I'll take it all under advisement for now but I need to learn more !