repetition, method, sight reading

[lorcar]

here I am ranting a bit and exposing my frustration to your wisdom.

So basically I started doing what you suggest: focus on small sample bars, HS first, very slow first.
Focus on most difficult movements, slow, understand what goes wrong, repeat until it gets better.

This is what I am doing right now, but - I wonder- isn't repetition after all?

This is what I noticed:

reading a new piece is (for me at least) relates to my ability to read ahead, anticipate next notes/bar.
With some musician, like Bach for example, this is more challenging as left hand has its own pattern and direction. This prevents me from reading next notes/bar as I have to focus on what I am actually depressing. This means I loose fluditiy and tempo.
When I start repeating the tricky movement, my hands and mind memorize the passage.

I wonder how i can define this "learning" as it's just memorizing through slow repetition, isn't?

I wonder how all this might improve my sight reading, or ability to read ahead, as I am simply memorizing and getting better at that specific passage.

[dima_76557]

@ lorcar

The problem with traditional teaching is that they try to teach you to read when you are not able to play yet, and when you have not yet even the most basic command over the keyboard and your fingers. That is simply putting the cart before the horse.

All advice you got here in your previous topics was meant to help you within the system you are already in. The only way, as I see it, to stay within that system and still progress for the time being is to be able to DESCRIBE the fragments you are learning in words for yourself, so you will understand the simplicity of the composition.

Could you show an image of a piece of music you are having trouble with? We could try to analyze it together with you, reword some of it in plain English and adapted to your level of knowledge, because - believe it or not - I find our musical notation system not very practical. It assumes too many present skills in a beginner.

[lorcar]

Hi Dima

thanks for the quick reply
I am actually working on the first Minuet of Anna Magdalena book (113). THe only problem I am having with it is fingering....for some reason I still dont get to understand, in some passage I happen to depress the key before or after the one I have to. WHen I play it slow I can make it right. Beat 28 for example, very easy, really. But for some reason I am wasting more time that I would have ever thought!

Also, the teacher gave me a piece I think too advanced for me. From Schumann Jugendalbum, the #23, crazy!

[outin]

I am actually working on the first Minuet of Anna Magdalena book (113). THe only problem I am having with it is fingering....for some reason I still dont get to understand, in some passage I happen to depress the key before or after the one I have to. WHen I play it slow I can make it right. Beat 28 for example, very easy, really. But for some reason I am wasting more time that I would have ever thought!

Also, the teacher gave me a piece I think too advanced for me. From Schumann Jugendalbum, the #23, crazy!

The Horseman? I think you might be intimidated by the lenght of the piece, but many elements are repeated. To try to sight read something that long will be hard, because you get tired and your concentration will fail you. Besides you need to be able to play the rhythm correctly and excute the different articulations. I would forget about stressing about reading now and concentrate on studying how to play it together with your teacher. I know it's hard to do, but you really should just take it very slow and in small steps.

I study many pieces that I simply cannot read because my mind gets overwhelmed with the amount of information on the page. I am also really slow in memorizing, most of my practice time goes into that. But I always try to make it meaningful by not just repeating, but listen to the sound, try to understand my movements and try to stop and think when I don't remember. It's not easy and I don't always succeed. Especially when tired or stressed I tend to go into mindless repetition, trying to force my hand to learn, but it's quite useless. I find it more useful to sleep on it. Just yesterday I told my teacher I need one more week with a half page section to get the notes secure before we go further.

The minuet is not easy to play fast. You must take your time instead of trying to play faster than you can. I never had the patience so gave it up before getting it into a reasonable tempo. 

[lorcar]

thank you

I guess my concern is more with the meaning of what "playing" really means, but I dont want to train wreck the topic.
(I am still confused if learning a single piece means "playing", because I think playing is something else. It's being able to play without score and the music you have in your mind)

I mean, I find "repeating" somehow too "monkey".

DIMA: what do you mean with "traditional" teaching? what SYSTEM do you refer to?
what do you mean with DESCRIBING?

I noticed this also: when I work on a piece, I write down the fingering my hand finds the most natural.
But as soon as I write down the number, somehow my fingers tend to over-exagerate (or under-do) the needed movement, thus I hit the key before or after the one I have to!
isn't weird??? I think this is due to my lack of consciousness of where my hand is on the keyboard

[dima_76557]

DIMA: what do you mean with "traditional" teaching?

All teachers/music schools who teach reading before the student can actually do something on the instrument. Ideally, if a person is a beginner, he/she should first learn the piece or the formulas used in the piece, and then find out how to write that down in our musical notation. This *can* be done, but it requires a lot more from the teacher. As I understand, the Suzuki method works that way. That's also how gipsies pass on their art - no notes, but still great virtuosity.

what SYSTEM do you refer to?

The teacher you are now with and his/her ideas about how to teach you.

what do you mean with DESCRIBING?

Reading just noteheads and determining their names very quickly is not a very exciting thing to do, so you want to learn that skill as soon as possible, so it can't bother or hamper you anymore.

What you really want is visualize what is BEHIND those noteheads - the structure of black and white on the piano, for example, and what hand positions you will be using. Sometimes the music looks really frightening, but all it turns out to be is a SEEMINGLY complicated variation on a simple chord (Chopin's "Winterwind" is an extreme example). In order to "see" such details immediately, you would have to know that chord already, and then find out through analysis HOW the composer created his variation on that known chord, and if there are any repeating figures, either in notes or in finger sequences.

If you don't know from your own experience (both knowledge and hand memory) what A minor, D minor and F major triads/chords look and feel like, it doesn't make much sense to learn Schumann's Horseman piece. If you do know those chords, please describe for us exactly what you see on that Schumann page, either left hand, or right hand, or both. It doesn't have to be theoretically correct. This is only about your perception of the notes. You might be missing something, which we can correct or open your eyes to.

EDIT: All this experiment is set out to do is to prove that you don't have to wait until you know the piece to be able to enjoy it. Even the process of learning can be VERY enjoyable.

[outin]

If you don't know from your own experience (both knowledge and hand memory) what A minor, D minor and F major triads/chords look and feel like, it doesn't make much sense to learn Schumann's Horseman piece. If you do know those chords, please describe for us exactly what you see on that Schumann page, either left hand, or right hand, or both. It doesn't have to be theoretically correct. This is only about your perception of the notes. You might be missing something, which we can correct or open your eyes to.

This got me thinking...

While you are absolutely correct, I wonder if it really is much help to someone just starting on the piano. Did we really think like this when we started as children? Maybe some do, but those probably progress much faster than the average learner. Maybe the problem with adult learners is that they try to understand everything too soon. The advice from people who understand after many many years of learning might just confuse them further, especially since they are at the same time working with a teacher who might have a different idea of the path that is required to learn.

Mostly the great advice given on this board is based on people's own experiences with working on the piano for countless of years. Is it really transferable directly to a beginner? Or is it needed to experiement, sometimes in a less efficient way to undertstand what works and what doesn't in such a profound way so that it can actually be translated into good playing?

Sometimes it seems like time works better than all the good advice and reading I have done to solve my problems. Theoretically I have known for a long time what I should do with my right hand, but I just haven't been physically able to do it. Only now I am slowly getting some results with the same exercises that have failed completely in the past two years. The same with reading, practicing started paying off only recently.

[dima_76557]

Maybe the problem with adult learners is that they try to understand everything too soon.

No. The problem with adults is that:
1) they want to work too hard (especially on things that do not matter);
2) they have been indoctrinated with the idea that you cannot have pleasure unless or before you have worked very hard and very long.

The tragedy is that "knowing" here is too simple for most to be true. Actually, it's nothing more than a PICTURE of a chord on the piano without unnecessary theoretical details of how and why. It is also memory in the hand of what that chord feels like. No more than 5 minutes practice required, and it works the same for both children and adults. Now you can show how "what they know" is written, and everybody is happy.

[outin]

No. The problem with adults is that:
1) they want to work too hard (especially on things that do not matter);
2) they have been indoctrinated with the idea that you cannot have pleasure unless or before you have worked very hard and very long.

The tragedy is, that "knowing" here is too simple for most to be true. Actually, it's nothing more than a visual PICTURE of a chord on the piano without unnecessary theoretical details of how and why. It is also memory in the hand of what that chord feels like. No more than 5 minutes practice required, and it works the same for both children and adults. Now you can show how "what they know" is written, and everybody is happy.

I think you misunderstood me. Wasn't talking about undertsanding of chords, but the learning process in general based on the confusion I read from OP posts.

I wonder what makes you to draw these conlusions on adult learners.
How can you actually tell that the process works the same way in adults and children? I have read quite different opinions from many teachers who have worked extensively with adult beginners. Can you actually ever get into a mind of an adult beginner if you have played practically for your whole life? I've talked to musicians who have started a new instrument as adults and they too seem to agree that it's different. And they already possess some of the understanding from their previous studies, even if not on the same instrument.

BTW. I am naturally lazy and never liked to work hard on anything, rather try to find easier ways to do things. So I cannot recognize myself in your ideas of the adult's problems...

[awesom_o]

BTW. I am naturally lazy and never liked to work hard on anything, rather try to find easier ways to do things.

Nothing wrong with that! Learn to channel all of that lazyness into finding easier ways to produce beautiful tone. That's the story of my life!

I never studied at the Repetition school of piano playing myself. Of course, many people from the Repetition school go on to have prominent careers as performing monkeys.... I mean artists...

I was never attracted to the curriculum or methodology that the Repetition school used.

[lorcar]

I never studied at the Repetition school of piano playing myself.

so may I ask you what you do when studying? if you study a new piece and you dont repeat, how do you approach it?
thanks

[dima_76557]

I wonder what makes you to draw these conlusions on adult learners.
How can you actually tell that the process works the same way in adults and children?

I was talking about "picture memory of a chord" (black and white) on the piano and about "hand memory of a chord", which is nature, not piano methodology. It's exactly the same for both children and adults.

The psychology of children and adults is different, but part of that difference lies in the adults' life-long psychological conditioning, which gives them a VERY serious disadvantage. "If it's fast and pleasant, it can't be solid". That kind of thinking. If there is no element of suffering and hardships in the learning process, suspicion peeps up.

[awesom_o]

so may I ask you what you do when studying? if you study a new piece and you dont repeat, how do you approach it?
thanks

I like to play a piece through, under tempo, with the music in front of me. This is how I approach all pieces, large or small!

I make sure that each time I come back to a piece I am studying.... I play it through slightly better than the last time when I studied it (which is often several months ago, sometimes even a year or more).

I can work on a hundred pieces at a time this way instead of just one or two.

[dima_76557]

@ lorcar

How about taking this approach to learning Schumann's piece?

It's not ideal, but it is just another angle of looking at the piece. The right hand is blue, and the left hand is green. Simply stop the clip wherever you like and compare it to the notes on the page. The only problem left is the fingering.

Also watch this on-line lesson by Josh Wright about this piece:

[outin]

The psychology of children and adults is different, but part of that difference lies in the adults' life-long psychological conditioning, which gives them a VERY serious disadvantage. "If it's fast and pleasant, it can't be solid". That kind of thinking. If there is no element of suffering and hardships in the learning process, suspicion peeps up.

But you see, reconditioning your body is not always fast and pleasant and it is harder when you are at the latter half of your life...Just wait until you're 40+ and then start learning a completely new physical skill

[dima_76557]

But you see, reconditioning your body is not always fast and pleasant and it is harder when you are at the latter half of your life...Just wait until you're 40+ and then start learning a completely new physical skill

I surely hope that is not true. I can't imagine having even more trouble than I used to have.

I think adults simply need VERY clear descriptions/instructions that don't confuse the subject in their heads and that set them up for success. Traditional teaching, though, gives you pieces to chew and you are supposed to invent old wheels all the time, whithout clear instructions and/or hints at a solution. You are simply set up to suffer, and the suffering is conditioned until somebody comes along and opens your eyes to what you really need to be happy. Children tend to have a more healthy attitude than adults. If they feel something isn't right, they'll just think: "Do it yourself" and start focusing on something else.

[outin]

I surely hope that is not true. I can't imagine having even more trouble than I used to have.

I think adults simply need VERY clear descriptions/instructions that don't confuse the subject in their heads and that set them up for success. Traditional teaching, though, gives you pieces to chew and you are supposed to invent old wheels all the time, whithout clear instructions and/or hints at a solution. You are simply set up to suffer, and the suffering is conditioned until somebody comes along and opens your eyes to what you really need to be happy. Children tend to have a more healthy attitude than adults. If they feel something isn't right, they'll just think: "Do it yourself" and start focusing on something else.

Unfortunately some people have trouble with physical tasks from day one...I wish I had worked over mine when I was younger, because it really does get more difficult with age.

I don't get the suffering idea at all, I suffered much more as a kid. With age I have learned to take it a lot easier, which I believe might actually help me through my problems this time...eventually
I do get frustrated, but I also get over it pretty fast and look at the thing from a different perspective.

People just seem to mature in different ways...

[dima_76557]

People just seem to mature in different ways...

They surely do. The key should be fascination, interest, love in/for the subject. As soon as that is present, we should learn HOW to work, which can be different for different people.

[pianoplunker]

here I am ranting a bit and exposing my frustration to your wisdom.

So basically I started doing what you suggest: focus on small sample bars, HS first, very slow first.
Focus on most difficult movements, slow, understand what goes wrong, repeat until it gets better.

I am worried about understanding what goes wrong and then repeating it. I hope to fix what is wrong and then move on to the next or previous section if I have time.

[lorcar]

Dima
thanks again a lot for the time you are taking but (besides not being the same piece, it's Horsemen, not Wild Horseman. But really doesnt matter) I really do not see how the first video can be useful. It just shows the notes...I have the score for that, or not? What's the "approach" you think the video suggests? I really dont see any...

the second video on the contrary is very good, i didnt know this guy, I 'll browse through his videos, quite interesting.
thanks again

[dima_76557]

I really do not see how the first video can be useful. It just shows the notes...I have the score for that, or not? What's the "approach" you think the video suggests? I really dont see any...

I thought it could be helpful for you to translate the PICTURE of the notes on the paper into the PICTURE of the keys on the instrument. It's visual and primitive, without using words or complicated theories.

[lorcar]

If you don't know from your own experience (both knowledge and hand memory) what A minor, D minor and F major triads/chords look and feel like, it doesn't make much sense to learn Schumann's Horseman piece. 

Dima
I looked at the score again today after we wrote last time.
And while I do recognize that the first bar do nothing else than D minor chord exploded and A major.
The problem is hand movement! pretty fast!

[dima_76557]

The problem is hand movement! pretty fast!

All good pianists practise SUPER SLOWLY. Do what Josh Wright shows about "blocking", "chunking" the hand positions. As soon as you realize how easy it is, the tempo will take care of itself.
P.S.: Although the clip presses everything within 13:56 (Josh Wright seems to know the piece already ), this clip may represent 1, 2, 3 weeks of work for you. Take it step by step. Most important now is that you have a strategy to work by.