Ways to teach releasing into the keys, finger/wrist motion - Sonatinas

[green]

A very common issue I find with adult learners (more than young students) is how they will hold/suspend the arm in tension and play with the fingers only, producing a frail, weak sound.

I usually start with wrist motion, single wrist/note, release/dropping the weight of the arm (which amounts to a split second) so the wrist is in fact falling, and virtually a moment later snapping the wrist up with the fingers remaining on the surface of the key. This is for forte, but quietly is exactly the same but dropping less weight.

This usually works to give the student a sense of connection to the body, and a feeling of weight transference which allows a more 'effortless' coordination between notes. We then proceed from there (I wont go into all the further steps, but just to say this is not any kind of end in itself).

I have one adult male student playing a Clementi Sonatina in C, the first one in the collection, he plays this with just fingers in that weak disembodied way, how do people approach teaching the technique for these pieces?

The note groupings/figures allow for the use of a wrist motion, playing several notes under one wrist motion ('stroking the cat'), which allows for the demonstration of the difference and continuum between wrist - passive fingers, almost dragging over the keys - and finger, which in quick passages like this involves a 'grasping' motion - quickly pulling the fingers in towards the palm, only going into the key about half way; producing that 'bubbly' sound effect and light rebound/reflex action of the fingers on the keys.

On the other hand, it could just as well be taught as finger technique alone (won't go into the details of that now) but only if the wrist can remain loose and open allowing the wrist to move as residual motion from the fingers.

These are some basic ideas, not complete by any means. Comments?

[hardy_practice]

I have one adult male student playing a Clementi Sonatina in C, the first one in the collection, he plays this with just fingers in that weak disembodied way, how do people approach teaching the technique for these pieces?

It's not really in Clementi's style to have wrist motion.  Lightness of the wrist yes, but use of it outside of octaves, thirds etc - no.

[elizasays]

I too find that my adult students start off with very tight arms and shoulders. Even for a piece which needs more finger work, i like to first get the student to play with relaxed arms and shoulders, and less fingerwork and only allow more fingerwork later - This is a slow process with adults. In one case the tight shoulders were a result of stress, as the student was working and had a lot of work pressure, with which she could not cope, but now, she is slowly learning to handle it or not take on so much.

To get rid of this the class needed to be light and fun, and yet deal with piano playing. This is what i did :

Teach deep abdominal breathing and singing - even on days she was relaxed, singing would make her even more relaxed. At first she would not sing at all, but now she loves to sing. i find, if i make her play, sing and play again, the way she plays after singing is much better than before (in terms of relaxed arms and shoulders)

Make her move to music - i don't know much about Dalcroze, but would make her move her arms and feet to a beat, while we both sang. Usually i find adult women more enthusiastic about moving, but men, very often will not move, and i just let them be.

Make her play easy pieces with a high wrist - she had learned earlier with another teacher, and then taken a break, so she came to me playing with her wrist below the level of the keys - i would place my arm parallel to the keyboard below her wrists, so she had no place to go too low.

I think what helps is doing a lot of pieces below her level and making her play them at every class, and teaching technique with these pieces, while simultaneously tackling one difficult piece at a time

Her arms are still tight, but they are looser than they were before (after 8 months of classes) and i feel with time they will improve even more

I will, when i can, add more detail in my blog about teaching adult students, someday, but a lot of what i do with kids also applies to teaching adults, though done in a different way

Here's a link to my blog,

https://anitaelise.wordpress.com/2013/09/24/sing-and-play/

[awesom_o]

Make her play easy pieces with a high wrist - she had learned earlier with another teacher, and then taken a break, so she came to me playing with her wrist below the level of the keys - i would place my arm parallel to the keyboard below her wrists, so she had no place to go too low.

I wouldn't advise playing anything with a high wrist!

[brogers70]

Well, I'm an adult learner and had just the sort of problem you describe, a tone that was either weak or too harsh, and tension in the wrists. I could already play fairly advanced repertoire, but it did not sound very good and I always felt tense and strained. My teacher gave me the following two exercises:

A dropping exercise. Sit at the piano. Put the arm fully relaxed at the side. Use the upper arm to lift the elbow out to the side, leaving the forearm, wrist, and fingers totally relaxed. Then lift the forearm over the keys by rotating the upper arm, keeping the wrist and fingers relaxed. When the bottom the the wrist, the elbow and the shoulder are on the same level, bring the hand into playing position. Then let the arm fall onto the third finger and a single note, being sure that when it falls everything is relaxed except the finger which is supporting the arm weight. Once I could feel complete relaxation of the upper arm and wrist at the end of the drop, I started to drop from lower and lower heights and eventually combined the drop with a two note slur and lift.

A finger/wrist independence exercise. Put the five fingers on five adjacent keys with the hand in relaxed playing position. Depress all the keys. Then lift each finger and strike the note eight times, fairly gently. Concentrate on exactly how all the muscles in the forearm and hand feel. Concentrate on using only the muscles controlling the individual finger to produce the motion and keeping the wrist relaxed. Really taking a lot of time and focusing on the feelings of all the muscles is key.

She had me do nothing but 20 minutes of those exercises for two weeks, and then gradually added new, easy pieces, well below the level of pieces I had been working on before. It helped amazingly, Everything feels much, much more comfortable, I do not strain to reach notes, my sound is better, playing is a pleasure. I had gotten really tight playing the octaves in the second theme of Beethoven's Pastorale Sonata, and when I finally went back to it, it was the most comfortable thing in the world.

The only problem is that I may not have described the exercises in a useful way. Such things can always be misunderstood and real dedication to a misunderstood exercise can cause problems.

[green]

A finger/wrist independence exercise. Put the five fingers on five adjacent keys with the hand in relaxed playing position. Depress all the keys. Then lift each finger and strike the note eight times, fairly gently. Concentrate on exactly how all the muscles in the forearm and hand feel. Concentrate on using only the muscles controlling the individual finger to produce the motion and keeping the wrist relaxed. Really taking a lot of time and focusing on the feelings of all the muscles is key.

She had me do nothing but 20 minutes of those exercises for two weeks, and then gradually added new, easy pieces, well below the level of pieces I had been working on before. It helped amazingly, Everything feels much, much more comfortable, I do not strain to reach notes, my sound is better, playing is a pleasure. I had gotten really tight playing the octaves in the second theme of Beethoven's Pastorale Sonata, and when I finally went back to it, it was the most comfortable thing in the world.

I'm curious to know how doing this exercise actually helped in the way you described?

[brogers70]

Green, that exercise taught me to recognize the feeling of using the muscles controlling each finger without tightening the muscles controlling the wrist. It also taught me to feel the difference between tension and relaxation in all the little muscles within the hand, and really engrained the experience of a correct, relaxed hand position into my brain. I did it very slowly and paid attention to all the sensations of muscle position and tension in my hand and wrist (and in fact in my arm, shoulder, and back).

Another thing I think was important in that retraining regimen was NOT to play anything I had played before, so as not to fall back into tense habits, and to be very careful only ever to play with as perfect a motion as possible. The idea being to give the brain only the right experiences and none of the wrong, tense, inefficient experiences. At first I had to cut back from my 3-4 hours of intense practice to just 20 minutes, but over the next couple of months I gradually found I could practice longer and longer without falling back into tense habits, and now I'm back to four hours, except that the four hours are so much more enjoyable without the stress and tension.

[green]

ah yes thats interesting to hear and I see how that makes sense in connection with tension/coordination issues. Have you heard of/ever tried finger tapping? Glenn Gould got a lot of mileage out of it:

https://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/articles/tapping.html

[awesom_o]

Have you heard of/ever tried finger tapping? Glenn Gould got a lot of mileage out of it:

Yes. This is the primary technique I use in almost all of my playing!

[green]

ah a fellow tapper, how have you found it helps?

[awesom_o]

Why don't you listen to my Chopin Etudes recordings and decide for yourself?



Seriously though, it was the best thing that ever happened to my piano-playing!

[green]

How would you describe the effect it has on your playing, to a student, what does it do? Where do I find your performances, I'm really very pleased to find someone who actually practices this!

[dima_76557]

How would you describe the effect it has on your playing, to a student, what does it do?

If I may: It's an excellent way to let the central nervous system itself find the proper alignment to move this or that key effectively, thus eliminating redundant effort. By doing this often, you will remember the sensations, which you can then recall/reproduce while playing for real. Our conscious mind and over-active muscle tonus often interfere with finding the right ways to move effectively. In this exercise, muscle tonus is as close to zero as possible.

[awesom_o]

How would you describe the effect it has on your playing, to a student, what does it do? Where do I find your performances, I'm really very pleased to find someone who actually practices this!

It made my playing much more musical.

Here is a video of me playing something. It wasn't a concert and there was plenty of background noise, so it's hardly my finest playing. For that you'll have to listen to the actual recordings of the complete op. 10 and 25 that I recently made. Quite a few of them have been posted in mp3 form in the audition room. For the .wav form you'll have to purchase a CD.

 

Fingertapping transformed the piano into an orchestra for me.

[nyiregyhazi]

If I may: It's an excellent way to let the central nervous system itself find the proper alignment to move this or that key effectively, thus eliminating redundant effort. By doing this often, you will remember the sensations, which you can then recall/reproduce while playing for real. Our conscious mind and over-active muscle tonus often interfere with finding the right ways to move effectively. In this exercise, muscle tonus is as close to zero as possible.

I have to strongly disagree here. In some muscles yes. And if someone is stiff as hell then it will help them release the bracing and fixation that should be released. However, I achieved nothing when I did the exercise all passively. The hand needs to find the right general position. If the thumb is raised even a little (what Alan Fraser calls inversion) the energy is passed on very poorly. In order to achieve the most, I must be extremely deliberate about pointing my thumb down to open it away from the palm in the Russian arch shape. If I don't do this, the energy is passed on very badly. The thing I'd stress is that I don't achieve that arch by gripping. That easily makes for stiffness. I'm no longer keen on Alan Fraser's idea of "grasping" as the means to achieve the shape. If I achieve it by merely lengthening the thumb and opening it, the effort is very low but the hand is empowered to transmit energy. I must also prep the finger against the resistance of the key in a subtle yet entirely deliberate fashion. If my finger is not already standing up against the resistance, the knuckle spirals down and again energy is passed on poorly and in a way that makes the hand sag into a disadvantaged position.

The thing to stress is that none of this is a generic fixing against nothing in particular. Rather, it's a sense of trying to move the thumb out and away (not locking it into a rigid place). And a sense of subtly pushing the knuckle away by gently pushing against the key (without using enough pressure to even begin to move it) and feeling the response running back up to the knuckle. If I miss these, I cannot transmit energy well in a passive fashion. If I get these right, it's astounding quite how much healthy sound results from a tiny energy input. On the whole it's about being passive, but if you don't get these subtle activities in place first, it really doesn't work very well.

[awesom_o]

However, I achieved nothing when I did the exercise all passively.

What exercise?

[nyiregyhazi]

What exercise?

Tapping.

[awesom_o]

Doing anything passively won't do much for a person.

You need to do things with an active understanding of what you are doing!

[nyiregyhazi]

Doing anything passively won't do much for a person.

You need to do things with an active understanding of what you are doing!

Agreed. To get the most out of tapping, there are certain things that you need to look for before tapping the finger. If it were as simple as being 100percent passive, a pianist could learn their whole technique as their own teacher, merely by popping the hand on the keys however and then tapping with the other hand. It's very passive in many ways, but the way that the hand to be tapped readies itself (either effectively or poorly) before receiving the tap, is a enormous factor in whether it trains something useful. I first tried this exercise a few years and back and got nothing at the time. I still find that I get next to nothing from gould's version on the tip (except a generic sense of looseness, that is pleasant but which doesn't make me play the piano any better) . When I tap further back as Beauchamp advises, I instantly expose any flaws in how I'm setting the finger against the key. From there, I transmit power much more effectively and with much less effort when I return to playing normally. It trains me to bond with the resistance of the key properly BEFORE I've even begun the act of moving it. The efforts involved may be small, but they are in no way passive (either mentally or physically) unless you happen to have already mastered them. Slack-handed pianists will not learn these essential ingredients passively.

[awesom_o]

I think you are confusing the purpose of finger-tapping with actual exercises which are intended to develop the hand itself. They are very different.

[nyiregyhazi]

I think you are confusing the purpose of finger-tapping with actual exercises which are intended to develop the hand itself. They are very different.

Well, I'm tapping my fingers. Whatever potentially different purposes Gould may have done it for, I didn't find anything like the same benefits from tapping the tip as from tapping further back on the finger as Beauchamp suggests (so it has to get transmitted through more of the finger- enriching the amount of feedback that is gained). I can tap my fingertips as long as I like yet experience little discernible change to how I play. It just evokes a loosening sensation in the muscle tonus. With the tapping coming further back, I get the same loosening in the general muscle tonus but also test how effectively the finger is prepping itself to efficiently pass on effortless tone from a point of bonding with the key first. There's no intent to develop the hand but merely to explore until I find the type of starter state that most effectively passes on the tap through to the hammer. Once I've found that, it makes a huge difference to my sound and technique. It makes playing in general more effortless, but above all it improves the ease of producing a rich and clear tone. I just don't get that benefit when I tap the tips.

[awesom_o]

There's no intent to develop the hand but merely to explore until I find the type of starter state that most effectively passes on the tap through to the hammer.

How will you ever play super-duper well if you do not develop the hands?

[nyiregyhazi]

How will you ever play super-duper well if you do not develop the hands?

Sure- but it's not a specific goal of the tapping I do (assuming you mean development of the muscles?). With the exercise I want to know how to best be ready for finger movement (that will ultimately be performed actively rather than passively transmitted). But when doing the exercise, it's all about the learning the "feel" for both the starter point and the sensation of efficient energy transmission from higher up in the finger, through the fingertip and into the key.

[awesom_o]

As I said before, finger tapping does not develop the hands.

It gives people a taste of how powerful and quick their touch can become ONCE their hands are highly developed.

[nyiregyhazi]

As I said before, finger tapping does not develop the hands.

It gives people a taste of how powerful and quick their touch can become ONCE their hands are highly developed.

? That's my point too. I'm not clear why you suggested that I'm using it to develop the hands a couple of posts back. Far from it. I just use the exercise to learn the type of POSITION and the style of subtle preparatory interaction between finger and key that passes on energy effectively. When you simply slop the hand on the key, the type of tap Beauchamp advises doesn't pass on the energy well, but after a little experimentation the finger finds the state it needs to be in. Tapping the same finger rapidly just below the knuckle is a very good way to trigger an instinctive feel for the right state of joining to the key. Once you can pass on a tap through the upper segment of a finger without droop or stiffness, the instant difference that shows up in normal playing can be remarkable before even going into long-term hand development. I actually feel that 90% of what determines a good or bad finger action is based on what happens before you even begin to move the key. If you're not in the right type of poise already, the key movement is doomed before it even starts. If the interaction is already there in the right way, going on to do the movement itself tends to be a mere formality rather than something that takes much further thought.

[awesom_o]

I would find it easier to read your posts if you were to use paragraph spacing. I suspect many others also feel this way. 

[nyiregyhazi]

I would find it easier to read your posts if you were to use paragraph spacing. I suspect many others also feel this way.  

Fine (if a 12 line paragraph is now seen as excessive in an age of 140 characters) but why did you assume I use it for a muscle training exercise? What has passing on energy in a primarily passive way (but in a way that involves attention to subtle preparatory positioning actions) got to do with muscle training?


Here's a film I made a while back to illustrate this manner of tapping in action. The first excerpt has notable 5th finger droop and sagging. After doing the tapping to reassess the position from which the fifth can transmit energy with more efficiency (and without the whole knuckle sagging further downwards), the fifth finger is not instantly perfect, but significantly improved at once.

If I tap on the tip as Gould did, it does nothing to improve the formerly sloppy 5th finger droop. I just get a generic looseness, rather than a direct improvement to the transmission of energy.

[awesom_o]

why did you assume I use it for a muscle training exercise?

I'm not sure. Perhaps it was because you said you derived no benefit from doing it. My mistake for making assumptions, however!

[awesom_o]

I think the only problem with your technique, Andrew, is that you look down too much at your hands.

And I wouldn't describe that problem as being a technical problem.

It's actually more of a musical problem.

It's a problem that people have who haven't yet studied enough music, but instead have spent too much time studying a relatively small number of pieces, always looking down at the keys!

Do you play much chamber music?

[nyiregyhazi]

I think the only problem with your technique, Andrew, is that you look down too much at your hands.

And I wouldn't describe that problem as being a technical problem.

It's actually more of a musical problem.

It's a problem that people have who haven't yet studied enough music, but instead have spent too much time studying a relatively small number of pieces, always looking down at the keys!

Do you play much chamber music?

? I rarely look straight down at my hands while practising. If anything, I usually view them indirectly via a mirror with no line of sight to the keys but only to check if my wrist is aligned and when my fifth is being allowed to droop. Where did that theory come from? I won the chamber music competition some years ago in my music college and have a friend who I sometimes play violin sonatas with.

If my problems were primarily musical, I'd be happy with the sounds I make. I'm not. The hard part is translating intent to sound. When the results don't match the intention, the technique behind sound production is not right, regardless of whether it's good enough for mere note accuracy. There's always plenty of room to improve the inner conception, but changing the inner conception doesn't make the results in sound match the intentions any more easily.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm not sure. Perhaps it was because you said you derived no benefit from doing it. My mistake for making assumptions, however!

Only from the gould version/versions that were done with a purely passive rather than properly poised hand. As I stated right after, Beauchamp's version is extremely productive - if the hand is properly poised against the key first rather than merely being passive in every respect.

[dima_76557]

I have to strongly disagree here.

I understand your reasoning, but "Glen Gould tapping" the way Glen Gould did it makes sense only for those who already have a perfectly developed hand; the meaning of the exercise itself was the training of the central nervous system without consciously interfering. I will have to look up where I read that explanation. I don't remember. I do not deny that there may be benefits in doing the exercise differently as you propose.

P.S.: Except for the elements you pointed out, I suspect that Glen Gould may have lacked in the hand-strength-and-endurance department because, even if he developed a most incredible virtuoso technique, he also had many problems as can be concluded from reading the following document: Glen Gould's hand by Frank R. Wilson.

[awesom_o]

Andrew, in the little video clip you just posted, your hands were doing some stuff that was truly bizarre.

On the piano, our musicality IS our technique, and our technique IS our musicality.

If a player is advanced enough musically (and technically), they will not have problems translating intent into sound!

You do have these problems, by your own admission.

I do not have these problems, myself. I can help you, pro bono, if you wish. 

[nyiregyhazi]

Andrew, in the little video clip you just posted, your hands were doing some stuff that was truly bizarre.

On the piano, our musicality IS our technique, and our technique IS our musicality.

If a player is advanced enough musically (and technically), they will not have problems translating intent into sound!

You do have these problems, by your own admission.

I do not have these problems, myself. I can help you, pro bono, if you wish.  

Sure, I'm always interested in any new ideas. Be aware that trying to change the physical issues in reference to musicality is absolutely a dead end though. In fact, the physical problems reach their worst if I spend a lot of time just concentrating on sound and without paying attention to alignment. There's a physical issue with my right wrist, which restricts the ability to lengthen out behind the 5th side, hence the cramped wrist often seen on that side alone. There's something that physically gets trapped and is often followed by an almighty crunching sound. It's not impossible to reach aligned position but there's a severe restriction to getting there.

Recently, I've actually found the Taubman double rotation idea to be one the best weapons in learning to align more consistently. However, it actively promotes problems, unless my fifth finger is extremely active about moving the key with extreme isn't to lengthen out, than merely be trying to "support" the rotation.

[awesom_o]

I have the perfect set of exercises for you, Andrew! I just sent you a friend request on FB. I find their video chat to be preferable to skype.

[elizasays]

I wouldn't advise playing anything with a high wrist!

I do think wrist should not be stuck, stiff, below the level of the keys.
Most beginner piano books have a picture with the wrist position, but many students start learning with too low a wrist, and I find I am often asking them to raise their wrists.

A lot of my students who have been playing for sometime earlier, and then started class with me, have had a wrist which stays stationary, about an inch below the level of the keys, making them put a lot of effort into lifting their fingers.

[mjames]

I have the perfect set of exercises for you, Andrew! I just sent you a friend request on FB. I find their video chat to be preferable to skype.

Are you planning on posting a video about finger tapping soon? Or should I add you on facebook as well?

[awesom_o]

Both.

[xdjuicebox]

Tell them what Rachmaninoff used to say - "play so that your fingers will touch the bottom of the keybed."