hyperextended finger

[awesom_o]

You must develop the hands. My palms are such that I do not have to stretch to play an octave, therefore my 5th never collapses.

[outin]

You must develop the hands. My palms are such that I do not have to stretch to play an octave, therefore my 5th never collapses.

 

Please tell me how I can develope my hand to such a size?

[awesom_o]

It's quite an intense training process. 20-30 minutes of focused musical exercise every day for almost 2 years. You really need to be around the RCM gr. 9-10 level first.

Developing the hands substantially is only necessary once a person plays well enough that their ear is craving more than their hands can cope with.

[outin]

It's quite an intense training process. 20-30 minutes of focused musical exercise every day for almost 2 years. You really need to be around the RCM gr. 9-10 level first.

Developing the hands substantially is only necessary once a person plays well enough that their ear is craving more than their hands can cope with.

So are you telling me that the original palm size is irrelevant and with enough training any hand can grow in size to be able to play an unstreched octave? Interesting...

[awesom_o]

Well, I'm not sure about 'any' hand.... but my one of my pupils, although an adult, is only about 4'11. She has a very small hand by nature. It is well-developed pianistically.

I wouldn't say an octave is NO stretch at all for her hand the way it is for mine, but she doesn't have to think about stretching her hand consciously in order to play octaves.  She can play the Revolutionary Etude quite well indeed.

[outin]

Well, I'm not sure about 'any' hand.... but my one of my pupils, although an adult, is only about 4'11. She has a very small hand by nature. It is well-developed pianistically.

I wouldn't say an octave is NO stretch at all for her hand the way it is for mine, but she doesn't have to think about stretching her hand consciously in order to play octaves.  She can play the Revolutionary Etude quite well indeed.

I am not sure what 4'11 means, I come from the metric world...Where would one measure that? My palm at the knuckle area is less than 8 cm wide at the best.

[awesom_o]

lol 150 cm.

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't think you understood the problem completely here...I can prevent the 5th from collapsing in normal playing by avoiding too much pressure. It's the octave that is the real problem.

I've done that kind of exercise before though and I think it was useful in learning to control the finger. But it didn't help to compensate enough for the joint issue.

I see. If it's only an issue on octaves, don't make any effort to oppose the collapse. Instead go as flat as possible and avoid pressing down through the joint. Trying to avoid the collapse will probably just make it more severe and more likely to be harmful.

You can definitely improve space between the fingers. See the end of my blog post on the hyperextension issue. Lengthening actions open space between fingers whereas scratching of the tip closes space and makes a small hand go even smaller. Ironically, the poster who advocates scratching always used to claim Alan fraser's method is only relevant big hands, yet the scratching action he proposes is overwhelmingly limiting to a small hand. I couldn't even stretch the 7th for the second chord of the rachmaninoff second concerto (despite a clean 11th span) until I introduced the lengthening action. It creates space for you between fingers.

[hardy_practice]

Try using Chopin's technique on a modern instrument. Not impossible, but extremely difficult. You definitely need to be a virtuoso of the highest caliber.

I'm so glad you get that.

[outin]

lol 150 cm.

I'd like to see your students with large hands 

[awesom_o]

Honestly, extremely large hands can be a bit of a hindrance at the keyboard. Certainly helpful for a few things which, if properly trained, a regular-sized hand can do perfectly fine on.
For the majority of musical situations, an extremely large hand is more likely to be clumsy than a regular-sized hand.

I have regular-sized hands for a 180 cm man. I wouldn't mind if I were perhaps  two or three cm taller... that would make me able to play all of the larger 10ths on the piano solid. But as it is, I can play nearly all of the different 10ths solid. I can't quite get Db-F in my RH comfortably.

Glenn Gould and Horowitz, possibly my two favourite pianists, both did ok with smaller hands than mine. Ashkenazy's hands are smaller still.

[outin]

You can definitely improve space between the fingers. See the end of my blog post on the hyperextension issue. Lengthening actions open space between fingers whereas scratching of the tip closes space and makes a small hand go even smaller. Ironically, the poster who advocates scratching always used to claim Alan fraser's method is only relevant big hands, yet the scratching action he proposes is overwhelmingly limiting to a small hand. I couldn't even stretch the 7th for the second chord of the rachmaninoff second concerto (despite a clean 11th span) until I introduced the lengthening action. It creates space for you between fingers.

I already had to work really hard to get rid of the overcurling habit so I'm definitely not going to do any exercises that will close the hand more...

What you explain it what I do with my left, it feels comfortable and natural to open the hand to the octave. It just doesn't work on the right. I'd probably need only about 0,5 cm more from somewhere...

[outin]

Honestly, extremely large hands can be a bit of a hindrance at the keyboard. Certainly helpful for a few things which, if properly trained, a regular-sized hand can do perfectly fine on.
For the majority of musical situations, an extremely large hand is more likely to be clumsy than a regular-sized hand.

I have regular-sized hands for a 180 cm man. I wouldn't mind if I were perhaps  two or three cm taller... that would make me able to play all of the larger 10ths on the piano solid. But as it is, I can play nearly all of the different 10ths solid. I can't quite get Db-F in my RH comfortably.

Glenn Gould and Horowitz, possibly my two favourite pianists, both did ok with smaller hands than mine. Ashkenazy's hands are smaller still.

Sigh...I'd be quite happy to have regular-sized hands if that means having hands like the average male.

[awesom_o]

My girlfriend is only 160 cm tall. Her hand is also, like mine, of average size relative to the rest of her body.

Since she is also an extremely advanced pianist, her reach at the keyboard is huge. Not quite as big as mine, but the difference is so small you'd barely notice it. She can play most 10ths solid.

I've known plenty of men my height with hands my size that can't play solid 10ths with as much comfort as she can. It's all to do with technique.

[outin]

My girlfriend is only 160 cm tall. Her hand is also, like mine, of average size relative to the rest of her body.

Since she is also an extremely advanced pianist, her reach at the keyboard is huge. Not quite as big as mine, but the difference is so small you'd barely notice it. She can play most 10ths solid.

I've known plenty of men my height with hands my size that can't play solid 10ths with as much comfort as she can. It's all to do with technique.

What exactly is the average hand size to the body? Because people have very different body types and also very different hand shapes. "Size" really doesn't say much about it. Size in what way? I have seen a study where hands were typed in two categories by overall shape and one of them correlated with more pianistic health problems. I agree that it has to do with technique, but in the end every hand has a limit and in addition to unhealthy technique constantly trying to exceed those limits will cause problems no matter how one does it.

[awesom_o]

Hand size is almost always proportional to height.

I knew one guy who was really short and had monstrous, freakishly large hands and feet.... but in general you'll get taller men shopping for shoes in sizes 11 and 12  and shorter men shopping for shoes in sizes 8 and 9. Same thing goes for gloves.

Shape is another thing altogether.

[outin]

Hand size is almost always proportional to height.

I knew one guy who was really short and had monstrous, freakishly large hands and feet.... but in general you'll get taller men shopping for shoes in sizes 11 and 12  and shorter men shopping for shoes in sizes 8 and 9. Same thing goes for gloves.

Shape is another thing altogether.

But shape may actually be more relevant to the playing technique than size.

And it's also quite imporant for selecting shoes or gloves that fit 

[awesom_o]

Yes, I agree.  Shape is much more important.