IMPORTANT! Fingering for E Minor Dim 7th Arpeggios

[Spatula]

IMPORTANT! Fingering for E Minor Dim 7th Arpeggios

What finering do you use for the root position and 1st inversion?

Right now I'm using for RH 2312 3412 etc and LH 3214 3214 etc for ROOT

and 2123 4123 for RH and LH 3214 3214 etc for 1st inversion

The RCM book said to use 1234 1234 etc for root RH ! How insane is that!

I hope it was a typo or something.

[faulty_damper]

Are you confusing Ebminor fingering with Eminor?

Root position:
RH 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4
LH 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 4, 3, 2, 1

1st inversion, just don't play the root note with the beginning root fingers.
RH 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1
LH 4, 3, 2, 1, 4, 3, 2, 1

(You must be confused.  And why shouldn't you be - you are a kitchen utensil.)

[Spatula]

no no no E MINOR!

I was doing the diminished 7th arps, and the book said 1234.

But the starting note should be D#.  Now when would you ever put your thumb on an accidental to start a technical exercise?

[faulty_damper]

And why would a diminished[/] 7th of E ever start on D#/Eb?  You can't possibly be confusing dominant 7th with the minor, can you?  Well of course you can, you're a kitchen utensil!

A diminished 7th always starts on whatever key it is but not dominant 7ths.

Your confusion is starting to confuse me!

[Spatula]

Sorry, I was typing that at work and didn't have the luxury of time, but anyways.  So don't bother with what I said earlier, let's start fresh.

Okay I'm talking about the E minor scale and I want to know what the fingering is for the diminished 7th arpeggios. 

[Spatula]

Wait...till I get home

Oh god I gotta take another proper look again at the syllabus and then say...okay Faulty? 

[faulty_damper]

You would use all your fingers.  There is no Eb in the Dim7th for E.

LH 5E,|: 4G, 3Bb, 2Db, 1E:|
RH |:1E, 2G, 3Bb, 4Db:|

If you have any other confusions then it's best to talk to your phychiatrist, not consult the forum on your mental health.

[Spatula]

By the way, I'm mentally sane, the last time I checked.  And I'm still sane.

I said that I'll check my syllabus technique book okay? Then I'll get back to you.

[faulty_damper]

So now I'm your personal answer guy?  I guess no one else wants to respond to you.

[Spatula]

Hey! Not nice!

The key of E minor has F# and D# as the raised 7th note. 

I am talking about the arpeggios for the diminished 7th chord, NOT the dominant.

So the root position should be:

D# F# A C

I know that normally all the fingers are used, but for this one, would you want to use 1 on D# or 2 on D#?

The book says 1234 1234 1234 etc for whatever number of octaves for RH.

What I think is better is: 2312 3412 for RH.

Now what do you think?  Is this fingering acceptable?

[faulty_damper]

Huh?   Now you have me doubting myself.  Diminished means that it is minor.  Dominant means major and the root does not start on the major key.  Unless I'm wrong which means we both need help.

Here, this link will help you:
https://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano/

Then choose E, scroll down to find dim7, and the notes will dot-up on the keyboard showing that the dim7 of E is E, G, Bb, Db.

And it will show you this on the bottom:
            Edim7
a.k.a.:     EΨ7
intervals:  1,b3,b5,bb7
half-steps: 3-3-3
notes:      E,G,Bb,Db

And if you want to hear what it sounds like, press the play button.

[johnnypiano]

You badly need help to get out of the quicksands of agument.

A diminished seventh is formed from any note, then a minor third higher, then another minor third higher, a further one, one more then you are an octave away from where you began.

How come you guys spend hours working this thing out, even though you admit to having a scale book to look it up?  It’s one way of passing the time, I guess, but I would rather use my time practising some good pieces.  Such arguments about scales have little bearing on the practical processes of piano work.  Enjoy your chats together though.
 

[Spatula]

You badly need help to get out of the quicksands of agument.

A diminished seventh is formed from any note, then a minor third higher, then another minor third higher, a further one, one more then you are an octave away from where you began.

How come you guys spend hours working this thing out, even though you admit to having a scale book to look it up?  It’s one way of passing the time, I guess, but I would rather use my time practising some good pieces.  Such arguments about scales have little bearing on the practical processes of piano work.  Enjoy your chats together though.
 

Um, no...I'm talking about the proper fingering of this technique, who wants to start C major with 3? anyone? anyone? see!

It's PointFULL to talk (not argue) about these things.

Anyways I phoned a friend doing his exam and he said my fingering is acceptable for the examination, but he uses a different fingering accepted by our piano teacher.

[bernhard]

There is a lot of confusion here.

So let me sort it out.

The source of all the confusion is very simple: There are two ways to build triads/chords.

One is to start with any note and add the appropriate thirds. For instance, start on C, add a major third (E) and then a minor third (G) and you have a major triad – called C major, because it starts on C. Start on Bb, add a major third, then a minor third: BbDF and again you have a major chord, this time Bb major since it starts in Bb. If you want a Seventh chord, start with any note, add a major third, a minor third and a minor third (or a minor 7th if you are counting from the starting note): CEGBb is C7th (because it starts on C), GBDF is G7th and so on.

If you want a diminished 7th, then you need to add to any starting note a minor third, another minor third, and yet another minor third (or a diminished 7th counting from the starting note): CEbGbBbb is the Cdim7 chord and You must build a chord using only the notes of the scale in question.

This is what faulty was suggesting and he is correct of course.

However there is another way. And that is to consider the scale from which the chords are built. Work this way, and all confusions and contradictions will disappear.
(And you will see where faulty went wrong)

Consider the C major scale. If you build triads on each note of the C major scale limiting yourself only to the notes of the C major scale, this is what you get:

Degree of the scale   Note          triad           type                chord       type
I – Tonic                    C             CEG          major           CEGB          major 7th
II – Supertonic             D             DFA          minor            DFAC          minor 7th
III – Mediant                E             EGB          minor            EGBD          minor 7th
IV – Subdominant        F             FAC           major           FACE           major 7th
V – Dominant               G             GBD          major           GBDF          seventh
VI – Submediant          A             ACE           minor           ACEG          minor 7th
VII – Leading note       B             BDF         diminished    BDFA           minor 7th -5
                                                                      (tritone)

If you examine this table there are three interesting observations concerning this discussion:

1.   Major triads, major 7th chords and minor 7th chords can be quite easily generated from a number of notes in the scale.

2.   If you limit yourself only to the notes of the major scale, you can only generate one diminished triad from the leading note, and one seventh chord from the dominant note. There is no other way to come by the diminished triad or the seventh chord using only the notes of a major scale.

3.   If you are using only the notes of the major scale these are all the chords/triads you will be able to generate: major, minor, diminished triads, major 7th, minor 7th and 7th chords. This means that you cannot possibly generate a diminished 7th chord from a major scale, for instance.

Now let us do the same thing for the harmonic minor scale: (I will use A minor as an example).

Degree of the scale   Note       triad           type                chord       type
I – Tonic                     A            ACE           minor               ACEG       minor 7th
II – Supertonic           B            BDF       diminished           BDFA        minor 7th -5
III – Mediant              C            CEG          major               CEGB       major 7th
IV – Subdominant      D            DFA           minor               DFAC       minor 7th
V – Dominant             E            EG#B         major              EG#BD     seventh
VI – Submediant        F            FAC            major              FACE        major 7th
VII – Leading note    G#          G#BD       diminished        G#BDF     diminished 7th
                                                                     (tritone)

Sharping the leading note and changing the order of the notes has some dramatic effects on the generation of chords. Observe:

1.   Now there are two ways of generating diminished triads (tritones): from the supertonic and the leading note (in the major scale only the leading note could do so).

2.   The seventh chord – as in the major scale – can only be generated from the dominant.

3.   A new chord – the diminished seventh – can now be generated from the leading note (and only from the leading note).

There are several other interesting observations to be made, but for the purposes of your question now we have the necessary background to clear up the confusion.

1.   What is the diminished seventh arpeggio for E minor?

There are two answers to this question depending on the way you look at it. If you look at chord formation as adding thirds to an arbitrary note, the diminished seventh arpeggio for Em is going to be E – Bb – Gb – A. (Because you assume that you will be starting from E - a very wrong assumption as we will see next).

However, if you look at this question as: What is the diminished arpeggio generated by using only the notes of the E minor scale, then the answer is quite different. It is going to be D# - F# - A – C. From the above, we know that we can only generate a diminished seventh chord from the leading note of a minor scale. In the case of E minor, it is D# the leading note. Likewise it must only contain the notes present in the E minor scale, which is the case with D# - F#  - A – C.

Edim7, in spite of its name is completely unrelated to E minor: E – Bb – Gb – A contains only two notes that belong to E minor. Bb and Gb are not part of it at all. If so, what is the scale that will generate the Edim7 chord? Easy. The scale which has E as its leading note (it must be a minor scale, since major scales do not have diminished 7th chords). Exactly: F minor.

At this point I must disagree with Johnnypiano that this an useless discussion. Quite the opposite. The above knowledge is fundamental in order to make a harmonic analysis of your piece, and to truly understand what is going on. It is the whole point of learning and being conversant with scales and arpeggios. Making these connections should precede any practice at the piano. When you look at an Edim7 chord you should know that the tonal centre for this chord is F minor, not E minor. Likewise, D#dim7 will have as tonal centre E minor. This is the reason why exams are set up the wasy they are. You learn the diminished 7th arpeggios in relation to their tonal centres, not in a vacuum, by themselves. Likewise you will learn the seventh chords as dominant 7ths, that is G7 has as its tonal centre C major, not G major (since the way to get a G7 chord is to build it on the dominant of C major).

Finally, the fingering:

General rule or arpeggios with black keys: Use thumb on white key. Use finger 3 and 4 on black keys (The fingering I use  - which by the way is not the only possibility -  is in brackets after the relevant note)

D# dim 7 arpeggio (that is, the E minor scale diminished seventh arpeggio)
RH - D# (3) – F# (4) – A (1) – C (2)
LH – D# (4) – F# (3) – A (1) – C (2)

Keep the same fingers on the same notes for the inversions.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Spatula]

There is a lot of confusion here.

So let me sort it out.


D# dim 7 arpeggio (that is, the E minor scale diminished seventh arpeggio)
RH - D# (3) – F# (4) – A (1) – C (2)
LH – D# (4) – F# (3) – A (1) – C (2)

Keep the same fingers on the same notes for the inversions.

Again, thank you oh mighty god of music (or at least a pretty darn good demi god if you ask me)

I'll use RH D#2 F#3 A1 C2

I find its the easiest for my hand makes sense, plus my teacher who was once an examiner also finds it acceptable.  But thank you Mr. Bernie.  You should be part of the Incredibles!