question regarding fingering technique

[bonnerik]

hello!

got a question regarding finger technique. lets say you have to play 2 notes which are so far apart that you have to move your whole hand to reach it (doesnt happen too often in the pieces im working on, handels suites). doing so makes it sound almost staccato to my ears (when i play notes which are not supposed to be played legato or staccato, i press down the next note as i release the previous note) which cant be done if the notes are say 13 white keys apart). have i approached this whole thing the wrong way ? are notes which are not staccato or legato supposed to be played in such a fashion that you release the first all the way up before you start pressing down the next note ?

sorry if its hard to read, didnt know how to explain it better.

thanks in advance

[faulty_damper]

Dampers.

[bonnerik]

the music is supposed to be played on harpsichord, and those didnt have any pedals did they ?

[mikeowski]

Notes that far apart are supposed to be played detached. Try to keep the note before the jump pressed as long as possible.

[bonnerik]

ok! thanks for the help. sometimes i thought that i was supposed to play every note more detached so that close notes and far apart notes would have the same space inbetween them.

[j_menz]

Are you sure the LH isn't supposed to take up some of the slack?

[faulty_damper]

the music is supposed to be played on harpsichord, and those didnt have any pedals did they ?

It doesn't matter if it was written for harpsichord.  If the dampers facilitate playing, use them.  If it enhances color, use them.

[bonnerik]

its mostly the LH which i have to play notes far apart with, sometimes i can help out with the right hand but in some cases its impossible. it just feels like playing some notes detached just because they are far apart feels inconsistent.

[dima_76557]

its mostly the LH which i have to play notes far apart with, sometimes i can help out with the right hand but in some cases its impossible. it just feels like playing some notes detached just because they are far apart feels inconsistent.

Could it be that the (abnormal) distance indicates the beginning of a new phrase or musical motive? In that case, you would be allowed to "breathe". It would be helpful if you could post an image of a fragment of such a piece.

[rmbarbosa]

Interesting question.
There`s a very easy minueto of Bach where one must play legato - because it`s a musical phrase - two notes: A - F belonging the Fa to one octave down.
If one doesnt want to use the right pedal, it`s like you say: you play the A, sustaining it the most you can and only lift it when your 1º finger is very near of the F. It`s a fast mouvement of the hand to the left and this provides a feeling of legato.
About the use of the RP: in Bach, for example, RP is needed in piano sometimes. But its use is not the same used in latter music. Acordingly Rosalyn Tureck, we may and sometimes must use the RP but between two notes, not a primary or secondary pedal like in the Romantics. I.E: in the anterior example, you may play de A, then you use the RP and you release it when you attack the F.
A - pedal - F.
I must apologize for my uggly English but think you`ll understand what I mean.
Best wishes

[dima_76557]

There`s a very easy minueto of Bach where one must play legato - because it`s a musical phrase - two notes: A - F belonging the Fa to one octave down.

What piece would that be? The aesthetic norm in Bach's time seems to have been very much NON-legato instead of legato, independent of the phrasing.

[bonnerik]

https://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/77919

bar 3, measure 3 page 55. theres a d going up to a b a whole octave above.

[dima_76557]

https://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/77919

bar 3, measure 3 page 55. theres a d going up to a b a whole octave above.

Exactly as I though, bonnerik. Do you see the octave pattern before that in the left hand in the many bars leading up to the place you indicated? In "your" bar, there are 2 octaves left, one "g" and one "d". Then a NEW scale-like pattern starts on the "b", so you don't have to tie the end of the octave pattern ("d") with the "b". You can "breathe", so to speak, to be able to sing the new motif starting on "b". Be careful with the intonation, though, because it's an upbeat, so the accent falls on the next.

[bonnerik]

ok thanks, that cleared up a whole lot!

[bonnerik]

just one last question. on the same page, bar 1 theres squiggly lines, are those mordents ? and bar 2, there are crosses in some places about the staff, how do i interprete those ?

[rmbarbosa]

Dima

Are you sure about the predominance of non legato in Bach music? Did you read Rosalyn Tureck? And Vanda Landowska? And Lechtiwsky? Once, a great friend of mine, the harpsicordist Chiara Massini - one of the great Bach performers of our time - told me that the left hand in Bach music must simulate a cello. Do you imagine a cello playing allways in psicato ou stacatto or non legato? Could you explain better your point of view? Best wishes
rui

[dima_76557]

Are you sure about the predominance of non legato in Bach music? Did you read Rosalyn Tureck? And Vanda Landowska? And Lechtiwsky? Once, a great friend of mine, the harpsicordist Chiara Massini - one of the great Bach performers of our time - told me that the left hand in Bach music must simulate a cello. Do you imagine a cello playing allways in psicato ou stacatto or non legato? Could you explain better your point of view?

Rosalyn Tureck (December 14, 1913 – July 17, 2003) and Wanda Alexandra Landowska (5 July 1879 – 16 August 1959) are both too far away from Bach's time for my taste to be reliable sources. I don't want to say that on our instruments legato cannot be extremely beautiful; on the contrary. However, it was just NOT the tone ideal of Bach's time.

First of all, it is virtually impossible to achieve legato on instruments of Bach's time. Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach's ideas (8 March 1714 – 14 December 1788) about tone ideals of the time (to be found in Reginald Gerig's "Famous Pianists and Their Technique") are therefore far more credible and convincing, and he describes the tone ideal on a keyboard as "a pearl of strings". This contradicts legato (pearls on a string touch each other, but they are not "glued" to each other as in legato). He also literally condemns keyboardists who keep the keys down too long. This also clearly hints at non-legato, not at legato as we know it. Some excerpts of CPE Bach's writings can be found here:

Reginald Gerig Writes on Harpsichord Technique

Reginald Gerig Writes on J. S. Bach & the Bach Sons

It was Muzio Clementi who first started doing something similar to our present-day legato, and as far as I remember, Mozart complained about Clementi's "lack of good taste" for doing so.

EDIT: The word "legato" itself has its origin somewhere between 1805–15 (that's 50 years AFTER Bach died); < Italian, past participle of legare < Latin ligāre to bind. It is related to the Belcanto School of singing. I believe it is therefore more a "Romantic" way of musical expression, and not one of the earlier "Baroque", which emphasized form more than content.

[j_menz]

Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach's ideas

.... are no better than his music. 

Sometimes the fruit falls far from the tree.

[dima_76557]

Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach's ideas

.... are no better than his music.  

Sometimes the fruit falls far from the tree.

This is an unfair statement, and I don't know why you are doing this in the context of this thread. When Mozart said, "Bach is the father. We are the children!", he did not refer to J.S. Bach, the father, but to CPE Bach. His legacy is, of course, not his music, but his treatise I referred to, "Versuch über die wahre Art das Clavier zu spielen" ("An Essay on the True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments"), which has long been the standard for keyboard practice.

[outin]

EDIT: The word "legato" itself has its origin somewhere between 1805–15 (that's 50 years AFTER Bach died); < Italian, past participle of legare < Latin ligāre to bind. It is related to the Belcanto School of singing. I believe it is therefore more a "Romantic" way of musical expression, and not one of the earlier "Baroque", which emphasized form more than content.

I personally think Baroque music simply sounds better with a more detached playing style. I do not like the sound of the harpsichord, but I do like the way it is played if this makes any sense. The most wonderful recordings are those where the piano's beautiful tones and the Baroque style of playing come together

[j_menz]

This is an unfair statement, and I don't know why you are doing this in the context of this thread. When Mozart said, "Bach is the father. We are the children!", he did not refer to J.S. Bach, the father, but to CPE Bach. His legacy is, of course, not his music, but his treatise I referred to, "Versuch über die wahre Art das Clavier zu spielen" ("An Essay on the True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments"), which has long been the standard for keyboard practice.

When Mozart said that, he was referring to CPE's music.  It divided Europe at the time, with JC, his brother, being the preferred Bach in France and England.

The influence of CPE's treatise was, at the time, largely a result of his stature as a composer (and performer). No doubt it reflects his own practice, and his own opinions. In the context of early classicism, that is probably quite good enough recommendation. It's historical accuracy regarding earlier periods is debatable, though it is often seized upon by those whose taste it supports. In the context of playing Handel, it is irrelevant.

[dima_76557]

When Mozart said that, he was referring to CPE's music.

I can hardly believe that when CPE himself called his own music "unchallenging hack work" and "sonatas for the ladies", generated for a significant second income. No, I think Mozart referred to the "standards of good taste and performance", described in CPE's treatise.

CPE Bach: like father, like son

But Bach's greatest achievement from these years was a composition not of music but of prose. The Essay on the True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments remains the most famous treatise of its kind. The book combines technical advice about ornamentation, improvisation and the importance of correct fingering ("more is lost by incorrect fingering than can be compensated for by all the art and good taste in the world"). The now-standard practice of using thumbs in keyboard playing can be attributed to it. But the text also prescribes a philosophy of performance which for the first time placed the expression of emotion on a par with technical competence. "Since a musician cannot move others unless he himself is moved," the essay argues, "he must of necessity feel all of the affects that he hopes to arouse in his listeners." Both Haydn and Beethoven swore by it; its use remained widespread long into the 19th century.

[j_menz]

CPE himself called his own music "unchallenging hack work"

I wasn't aware he had done so. My estimation of his judgment has climbed significantly.   

No, I think Mozart referred to the "standards of good taste and performance", described in CPE's treatise.

In the absence of further evidence, we'll have to both go with our own speculations.

That said, that the treatise was influential at the time, and has continued to have some influence, is not in doubt. I merely question it's historical accuracy as regards  performance of earlier music.

And even if it is somewhat accurate, why should we care in making our own decisions on vastly different instruments?

[dima_76557]

And even if it is somewhat accurate, why should we care in making our own decisions on vastly different instruments?

Because there are certain elements of STYLE, spirit and esthetics in Baroque that are remote from Romantic ideals. It is mostly descriptive music, written in the 3d person, unlike Romantic music that is written in the 1st (personal suffering, experiences, etc.). The music should play itself, and "Legato" (which I see as a Romantic ideal from the Belcanto School of singing) should be used VERY sparsely if at all in this type of music. Breach of style is not something you want to commit, is it?

[j_menz]

Because there are certain elements of STYLE, spirit and esthetics in Baroque that are remote from Romantic ideals.

Less remote from Romantic ideals, IMO, than to classical ideals.

It is mostly descriptive music, written in the 3d person, unlike Romantic music that is written in the 1st (personal suffering, experiences, etc.). The music should play itself, and "Legato" (which I see as a Romantic ideal from the Belcanto School of singing) should be used VERY sparsely if at all in this type of music. Breach of style is not something you want to commit, is it?

We clearly have a vastly different impression of Baroque music.

And breach of faith with the music is something I would prefer to avoid, rather than breach of fashion (and yes, I know the difference between fashion and style - we just have a different view of what your practice represents).

[dima_76557]

we just have a different view of what your practice represents).

"HEAVENLY" sounds. J.S. Bach created his music "to God's glory" (he also signed all his works like this), and I don't think there is place in it for the more earthly struggles and trials of the Romantics. It's more religious and mathematical than any other kind of music. "Fine-tuning of the soul", never gratifying the desires of the flesh as the Romantics seem to do. Legato feels to me like "holding" (physical contact) which seems to contradict the spirit of that music.

[dima_76557]

Once, a great friend of mine, the harpsicordist Chiara Massini - one of the great Bach performers of our time - told me that the left hand in Bach music must simulate a cello. Do you imagine a cello playing allways in psicato ou stacatto or non legato?

I did some homework. Here are the details:
Utilizing slurring & articulations in Bach’s Cello Suite III
(nothing like the legato playing cello students are usually prepared for to be able to play romantic and post-romantic music. Similar sources can be found for other string instruments.

For Bach on the piano, here is some more food for thought:
Playing Bach on the Piano
Baroque Ornaments

[j_menz]

I did some homework. Here are the details:
Utilizing slurring & articulations in Bach’s Cello Suite III
(nothing like the legato playing cello students are usually prepared for to be able to play romantic and post-romantic music. Similar sources can be found for other string instruments.

I had some trouble getting past

It also reminds me that with persistence, dedication, hard work and discipline, we can all render a piece of music into little blots of ink linked by binary code not completely unlike the Matrix.

Glad I did though.  I don't entirely disagree. I also don';t entirely agree.

I suppose it boils down to one's dedication to the idea of "authentic performance". My argument, though, is that that would preclude the range of possibilities that a modern piano offers to give voice to the music. Either one is trying to make the instrument into something it is not or one is making the music into something it was not possible to be at the time.

I find Bach's music enriched by the latter process, provided one is faithful to it's spirit.

I also note that the argument is about as divided and inflamed with regards to this issue with respect to any of the major forces for which Bach wrote.

[dima_76557]

I suppose it boils down to one's dedication to the idea of "authentic performance". My argument, though, is that that would preclude the range of possibilities that a modern piano offers to give voice to the music. Either one is trying to make the instrument into something it is not or one is making the music into something it was not possible to be at the time.

I don't think so. I am not in favor of "authentic performance" per se. Actually, I prefer the sound of a piano to the sound of a harpsichord. The essence of Bach's works for keyboard, though, is that they are ARCHITECTUALLY based on the limitations of the instruments that were available:
- quick sound decay
- no pedal available to sustain sounds or blur them together
- no dynamics or accents possible

If the performer does not keep that in mind, then the music loses its inner strength and the structure falls apart. It really does sound so much better if you have the skills to articulate as Bach intended. Which brings me to another idea: Most of Bach's works can be played in style only by VERY advanced instrumentalists.

[j_menz]

The essence of Bach's works for keyboard, though, is that they are ARCHITECTUALLY based on the limitations of the instruments that were available:
- quick sound decay
- no pedal available to sustain sounds or blur them together
- no dynamics or accents possible

Perhaps you would care to demonstrate how this is shown in the difference(s) between his works for Clavichords and his works for Organ, where there is (a) no sound decay, (b) usually an echo that is a lot like pedal down (or at least half pedal) and (b) quite an array of effects that can be brought it to play using different registers and manuals.  I'm afraid I don't see them in the writing.

EDIT:

I should also point out, in the context of the whole discussion, I am not suggesting carte blanche. Merely that one should keep ones options open to a greater extent than the "play it all monotonously detache" often seems to be interpreted.

[dima_76557]

Perhaps you would care to demonstrate how this is shown in the difference(s) between his works for Clavichords and his works for Organ, where there is (a) no sound decay, (b) usually an echo that is a lot like pedal down (or at least half pedal) and (b) quite an array of effects that can be brought it to play using different registers and manuals.  I'm afraid I don't see them in the writing.

For specifics in organ music, it would probably be better to ask iansinclair, but I'll give it my best shot.

There are no indications whatsoever, but for organ, Bach will often set the cantus firmus (the lead-melody) in the pedal with a reed stop, or have two voices played on different manuals, so the listener can automatically filter everything out. Otherwise, only the player's skill with ARTICULATION will determine whether the melody will be heard or not. This was assumed, that's why it was never written down explicitly.

EDIT: On one organ manual, you don't have any possibilities for dynamics; you have only articulation left to distinguish different voices, the same problem as on the harpsichord.

[j_menz]

For specifics in organ music, it would probably be better to ask iansinclair, but I'll give it my best shot.

There are no indications whatsoever, but for organ, Bach will often set the cantus firmus (the lead-melody) in the pedal with a reed stop, or have two voices played on different manuals, so the listener can automatically filter everything out. Otherwise, only the player's skill with ARTICULATION will determine whether the melody will be heard or not. This was assumed, that's why it was never written down explicitly.

I'm not arguing about how it is played (though I largely^* agree with your assessment). I was referring to what it looks like written out. What distinguishing features do you see?

* In a four part fugue, what voice is the cantus firmus?

[rmbarbosa]

Dima
I`m grateful for your approches but have some doubts yet.
For example: JS Bach was not a harpsichordist but a organist and a clavichordist: In Germany, at Bach time, Harpsichords were a rarity and the clavichord dominated. The clavichord gives us the possibility of legato as the organ does. So, I dont see why didnt Bach play legato. With his son it`s quite different: CFE Bach played harpsichord. But JS Bach music was intended to organ or clavichord, so...

[dima_76557]

Dima
I`m grateful for your approches but have some doubts yet.
For example: JS Bach was not a harpsichordist but a organist and a clavichordist: In Germany, at Bach time, Harpsichords were a rarity and the clavichord dominated. The clavichord gives us the possibility of legato as the organ does. So, I dont see why didnt Bach play legato. With his son it`s quite different: CFE Bach played harpsichord. But JS Bach music was intended to organ or clavichord, so...

We have another topic here in the "repertoire" section of the forum:
Playing Bach on Piano where I look at the matter from a slightly different angle: polyphony and its (very rigid) rules of consonance and dissonance (Reply 13 and further). Enjoy!

[dima_76557]

[...]JS Bach was not a harpsichordist but a organist and a clavichordist: [...] So, I dont see why didnt Bach play legato.

Imagine where those organs stood: in huge churches and cathedrals. To accompany a congregation in some churches, you had a mirror to read the minister's lips from half a mile away, because the sound of their singing reached you 2-3 seconds later than the moment it had actually been produced. Can you imagine what true legato would do in such acoustics? If you played true legato, you would probably never be invited again as an organist. The blurred result is an ordeal to listen to (happens sometimes with inexperienced organists giving "concerts" in church.
P.S.: I took "concerts" in quotation marks, because one of the irritating habits in concertizing instrumentalists is that they seem to play for themselves only and often don't take into account how the sound will reach the listeners' ears in this or that surrounding.