baroque ornamentation help

[bonnerik]

https://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/77919

page 55 bar 1 there are squiggly lines, are those supposed to be mordents ?
page 55 bar 2, there are crosses in some places above the staff, what do those mean ?

[mikeowski]

On the IMSLP page, download the larger version (the one with 31mb) of Suites de piéces. It is a cleaner version of the score and you will find the piece on page 111/112.
1.) The ornament you mean seems to be a mordent, the ones after that all trills.
2.) I'm not sure what you mean by the crosses above the staff. I can't seem to find them.

I'd stick with the edited version (the huge one) to avoid confusion.

[bonnerik]

ok thanks. do i play baroque mordents as; note above, intended note, note above, intended note, note below, intended note ? i have a book with handel harpsichord music, and there many of the ornaments are shown on a miniature staff above the real one

[museusmusic]

Hi,
a page with commons mordents, grupettos etc and equivalents:
ornaments examples
hope it helps.

[awesom_o]

You are confused about what a mordent is. A mordant does not involve the note above. Read up about the different types of ornamentation. They aren't all just different types of trills

[bonnerik]

what confuses me is how ornamention has changed since 18th century, when i play handel i play the trills starting with the upper note, how would i go about playing a mordent/inverted mordent/double mordent the way it was played during the baroque period ?

[awesom_o]

Those are mordents in the LH at the beginning. The original note is D in the left hand. So, the mordent is played D, C#, D.... only three notes, almost as if 'crushed' together. On the beat!

[bonnerik]

i see, sometimes the squiggly lines are a little longer, does that mean ill play d c# d c# d ? and theres not a straight line going vertically through the squiggly one, do i play the e note instead of the c# ?

also, if a note is supposed to be trilled, do i trill the full duration of the note, or do i end the trill by staying a little longer on the note, as you do with mordents ?

[awesom_o]

i see, sometimes the squiggly lines are a little longer, and theres not a straight line going vertically through the squiggly one, ?

A longer squiggly line without a straight line going through it is called a turn.

Honestly, you just need to do a bit of reading on the subject. It isn't that complicated.

Even just the wikipedia article on ornamentation would be a start!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_(music)#Turn

[bonnerik]

are there 2 symbols for a turn ? i thought the sideways s was a turn, and a longer squiggly line was a double mordent

[awesom_o]

Sideways S is a turn. Long squiggly line (like a long mordent but without the vertical line going through it) is a trill.

[bonnerik]

ahhhh ok! so why would a composer (handel in this case) use tr symbols in some places and sometimes a long squiggly line if they are the same ?

also, when doing a trill, are you supposed to rest on the principal note after the trill is done before playing the next note, or do you trill the note for the full duration ?

[awesom_o]

also, when doing a trill, are you supposed to rest on the principal note after the trill is done before playing the next note, or do you trill the note for the full duration ?

Sometimes it's easier to write tr, sometimes it's easier to draw the line. It depends on the context.

Same thing with your second question. Sometimes, the trill sounds nice for the entire duration of the note. Sometimes, a shorter trill sounds good. Music is about developing your experience, so that you can have your own discretion to rely on.

[bonnerik]

ok thanks, cleared up alot.

as for mordents, usually theyre only played with one fast shake before resting on the principal note right ? if its a longer note, say a quarter note, is it common practice to the note longer before resting on it ?