Ideas for Innovative Repeats

[gvans]

I have several upcoming recitals of a cello/piano sonata program. We've decided to take all repeats in our Beethoven Op. 69 and Brahms 38, and have been trying out different strategies for playing the same thing the second time through. Our middle piece, the Delius cello sonata, has no repeats but does have a recapitulation of the opening theme.

One idea we use is to play the first time a bit tentative, exploratory, as if discovering the music. The second time we play with more assertion, more powerful cresecendoes, etc. A recitative-style solo first time through gets played slower, the second time with more authority, etc.

I'm curious if anybody has different strategies or ideas for playing repeats.

Thanks in advance.

 

[j_menz]

It depends on how the repeat fits into the overall scheme of things.  It should always be somewhat different in effect, so what you describe above is one way of doing it. Or, you could reverse it - play the first time with confidence and the second with less certainty. It depends a bit on what the next bit does, and how you see the two being related.  A recap, as in the Delius, is somewhat different, in that the audience has heard something else in between, which may change their perception in any case without requiring too much alteration on your part (or it may give you the impetus for even more change).

[gvans]

Thanks, j. I suppose all that brings up the question, should you have something planned out and rehearse it in advance, or just wing it and let "concert mood" take over? Either course has its pros and cons...

[j_menz]

As it's two of you, it depends a bit on how well and comfortably you read off one another, but I'd recommend at least a broad agreement about the general direction, and one that had been rehearsed.

And remember, it's easier to swing a cello in anger than a piano. 

[nyiregyhazi]

It's interesting that you describe it that way, but I've always tended to stick to the traditional idea of more assertive the first time and more subdued the second. At least, in repeat marks. If a reprise is written out, I might be more inclined to make it a strong arrival rather than more subdued.

I can't exactly say your stance is  "wrong" but doesn't it make sense to introduce new material with clarity and then vary it once the audience already has some sense or awareness of it? I do see a logic to announcing something clear first but then going more gentle to make them listen in more. That said, for a whole exposition, does it need to be completely different? In sonata form, isn't the repeat to reinforce awareness of material before varying it in development? Schnabel didn't believe in varied repeats unless the material itself was changed via different keys etc. I can see his point in sonata form, although I prefer softer echos in binary form repeats. I do take a never say never stance but I'd take the softer followed by assertive version as a rare exception rather than a normal attitude to a repeat. I see that more for musically prepared recapitulation than for straight up repeats of sections.

Actually, one version that springs to mind of what you describe is Natan Brand in the middle section of Schubert 's a flat impromptu the first time he plays the second repeated section quite "classically" and the second time with a huge romantic fury (involving a lot of accumulated volume in the repeated chords and a faster tempo). He made it work very well, although it's not for purists.

[gvans]

remember, it's easier to swing a cello in anger than a piano. 

Or to get stabbed by a bow:

[awesom_o]

I like to use the repeats as a chance to not repeat the mistakes I made the first time around

[j_menz]

Or to get stabbed by a bow:

I always wondered why they were unnecessarily pointy at the end.   

I like to use the repeats as a chance to not repeat the mistakes I made the first time around

I like to make entirely different ones, just to keep people on their toes. 

[gvans]

In sonata form, isn't the repeat to reinforce awareness of material before varying it in development?

No question, this is the classical standard. But as you point out, there are varied ways to approach this. Our Beethoven has several recitative passages which I think are better served by tentative/forceful, rather than the reverse. The passage as a whole, I'm not so sure. As a duo, we seem to find each other during the first go and it seems quite natural to play with more authority the second time round. Whether this is logical for an audience, I'm not so sure. It's logical for us.

In writing, at least, it is the final statement that carries the most weight. So playing the second repeat with the most gusto makes a sort of literary or story-telling sense, before one moves on to the development. In many ways, sonata form evolved from opera, and the exposition of themes is analagous to the presentation of the characters. It doesn't seem odd, at least to me, to make the characters even more sharply edged upon their second appearance, before they start to undergo changes in the development.

It's my understanding that at competitions, pianists are graded on how they vary their repeats. I'm curious as to how any current competition-keen pianists out there in PS deal with this...

[awesom_o]

I like to make entirely different ones, just to keep people on their toes. 

This continues to happen to me as well despite my best efforts to the contrary. I'm beginning to think that's what repeats are for!

[nyiregyhazi]

No question, this is the classical standard. But as you point out, there are varied ways to approach this. Our Beethoven has several recitative passages which I think are better served by tentative/forceful, rather than the reverse. The passage as a whole, I'm not so sure. As a duo, we seem to find each other during the first go and it seems quite natural to play with more authority the second time round. Whether this is logical for an audience, I'm not so sure. It's logical for us.

In writing, at least, it is the final statement that carries the most weight. So playing the second repeat with the most gusto makes a sort of literary or story-telling sense, before one moves on to the development. In many ways, sonata form evolved from opera, and the exposition of themes is analagous to the presentation of the characters. It doesn't seem odd, at least to me, to make the characters even more sharply edged upon their second appearance, before they start to undergo changes in the development.

I don't want to argue that this would be an absolute no. However, the problem in sonata form is that you have the recapitulation still to come. What happens then? If the repeat was forceful, shouldn't the sense of reprise usually be even more assertive? Of course everything is contextual, but I'd think of an more forceful repeat as likely being an exception rather than a rule when there's a recapitulation left to come. Personally I favour only subtle differences in sonata form repeats.

[gvans]

This continues to happen to me as well despite my best efforts to the contrary. I'm beginning to think that's what repeats are for!

Right. Or how many times have you performed the exposition, especially in a chamber piece, and thought, damn, our best run-through ever--yikes, but now we've got to do it again, only bad things can happen. Perhaps a pre-conceived change in approach the second time through might help focus one's concentration in a positive way.

[gvans]

However, the problem in sonata form is that you have the recapitulation still to come. What happens then? If the repeat was forceful, shouldn't the sense of reprise usually be even more assertive?

Good point. And certainly you're right that with short repeated phrases, the traditional practice of playing the echo softly is a good one. Perhaps we'll play the repeat, as a whole, more subdued, but the recititatives on the pianissimo side but a bit more decided, leaving room to bring the recaps out in all their glory.

Or we could ignore the repeats all together, a practice which drove Richter to apoplexy.

[adam2]

Could you post your performance of the Beet's op 69?

[gvans]

Could you post your performance of the Beet's op 69?

Of course.