forearm pain in fortissimo and weight distribution

[lorcar]

I notice that when i practice "FF" (or fast double third scales), my forearm tends to become stiff and sore.
How do i produce loudest sound without creating stiffness in my arm? which is the right way to put all your weight but while being relaxed?

[awesom_o]

I notice that when i practice "FF" (or fast double third scales), my forearm tends to become stiff and sore.
How do i produce loudest sound without creating stiffness in my arm? which is the right way to put all your weight but while being relaxed?

I think you need to stop focusing on the question 'How do I produce the loudest sound'.

The piano is not the instrument of choice to answer this question. The drums or electric guitar would be better for producing the loudest sound.

On the piano, what you want to produce is the most powerful sound.

[lorcar]

omg....
yes sorry if i was not clear enough
i was talking about the sound you are supposed to produced when on the score you see FFF

[awesom_o]

i was talking about the sound you are supposed to produced when on the score you see FFF

The most powerful sound. In order to produce the most powerful sound, you have to have the most power inside of you.

It doesn't come from some external stroke, touch, or method of sound production. It's internal power that you need. You actually cultivate it by practicing quietly.

This is why it isn't such a good idea to practice FF double thirds scales fast. Doing that over and over again is pointless, and is guaranteed to make anyone's forearms stiff and sore.

It's more important that you have exceptional control of the velocity and sound in such passages whenever they come up in musical situations. 

The way to get that exceptional control is to practice quietly.

[kalirren]

Practice hands separate.

I agree with the other above poster.  Don't practice FFF for loudness.  Practice FFF for strength.  Strength of sound comes from depth of texture.  Textural depth is rooted in the integrity of inner and lower voices.  Don't trick yourself into voicing the top note of the third louder in an effort to make the chord sound louder.  This will lead to playing brightly when you should be playing broadly.  Instead, practice by exaggerating the strength of inner voices.

In your particular case, it sounds to me that you may also have insufficient upper arm/forearm stamina to support the repeated actions you are attempting.  The following is what I would suggest to build the necessary strength:

First, disentangle tension from strength through relaxation:

First, hold up your hand straight.  Visualize your fourth finger as an extension of your forearm.  Using a stroke originating from the spine or shoulder and proceeding down your entire arm, play a single note E on your fourth finger of your right hand at medium volume, at no volume in particular.  No matter what that note ends up sounding like, attempt to relax your entire arm and shoulder on that side as completely as you can while holding the note to the bottom of the key.  You should be able to lean forward from your bench, from your spine and abdomen, into the piano and feel every muscle system in your arm and shoulder acting as a series of springs.  They should all compress together as you lean in, and extend together as you lean out, without any joint or muscle system taking what feels like a disproportionate share of the burden.  Practice the single whole-arm stroke and relaxation until you can reliably and quickly reach relaxation in between strokes

Once you are comfortable with the single stroke and relaxation at no particular volume, then begin to control the volume.  Continue to experiment to find the way in which you can play and hold a single note most loudly, most softly, while relaxing most completely and immediately after striking the key.

Next, separate loudness from strength through voicing:

Now add the C beneath it on your second finger.  Strike the C-E third at no particular volume until you can relax properly.  Pay particular attention to togetherness.

Once you are comfortable, strike C-E pianissimo.  Over repeated strikes, while maintaining correct relaxation between strikes, increase the volume of the E to fortissimo, increase the volume of the C to fortissimo, decrease the volume of the E to pianissimo, decrease the volume of the C to pianissimo.

Your eventual goal is to find and become comfortable with the range of voicings from pp to ff that makes the C-E third sound like a third, instead of two voices.  This step involves more training of the ear and mind and less of the strength of the playing apparatus.  I find that when you play a gradient of repeated notes form pp to ff, the E should seem to crescendo first and less, the C second and more.

Once you have separated both tension and loudness from strength, then build strength:

Strike the C-E third twice, at your desired volume and in your desired voicing, relaxing in between the two strikes.  Do not repeat the note faster than you can relax, or this drill will not work.  Gradually diminish the interval between strikes, while maintaining relaxation between the strikes and the whole-arm attack on each strike.  (The whole arm attack may be much diminished, but the action must still be able to transmit force from your spine/shoulder all the way to the tip of your finger.)

Add a third repetition, and a fourth.  Through the addition of more repetitions and the shrinking of the interval between them, get up to about 9 strikes in a row at upwards of 6 strikes per second, maintaining full relaxation between strikes.

At this point you should be able to comfortably do relatively musical drills.  You should endeavor to build a combination of muscle strength by intense, short sets, and muscle endurance by less intense, longer sets.

[faulty_damper]

I notice that when i practice "FF" (or fast double third scales), my forearm tends to become stiff and sore.
How do i produce loudest sound without creating stiffness in my arm? which is the right way to put all your weight but while being relaxed?

I've never seen you play but I'd bet a hell of a lot of my money that you press down on the keyboard trying to get it loud.  Pressing down is the worst way to produce sound since that's like trying to move a brick wall; all of the energy you put in pushes you back. (This is one of the law of physics.)

Instead, strike at a downward angle, like you're playing handball, bouncing the ball on the ground (the keyboard), it rebounds against the wall (the fall board), and then it comes back to you.  This is what your hands and arms should be doing.  You'll immediately notice a drastically different feel and improvement.  It will feel like night and day.

Oh, and to specifically answer why your forearm becomes sore: your forearm contains the muscles that move your fingers.  You are excessively co-contracting to hold those fingers stiff, and as a result, they become sore over extended periods.

[lorcar]

I've never seen you play but I'd bet a hell of a lot of my money that you press down on the keyboard trying to get it loud.  Pressing down is the worst way to produce sound since that's like trying to move a brick wall; all of the energy you put in pushes you back. (This is one of the law of physics.)

Instead, strike at a downward angle, like you're playing handball, bouncing the ball on the ground (the keyboard), it rebounds against the wall (the fall board), and then it comes back to you.  This is what your hands and arms should be doing.  You'll immediately notice a drastically different feel and improvement.  It will feel like night and day.

thanks really a lot
it does make sense, but at the same time i dont get the following.

In the WRONG case you say the energy pushes back and it causes my problem.
in the RIGHT approach you write it comes back to me.
Why the problem should be different?
thanks

[swagmaster420x]

well, the loudness is determined by how much force is used to press the keys. hammers strike the strings inside the piano, and seeing as you probably cant increase the mass of the hammers, you want to focus instead on increasing acceleration (Force = mass*acceleration). basically, just make the keys you're pressing, which push the hammers, drop as fast as possible. you can accelerate the keys more by putting more of your body weight into the keys but it seems easier to do by instead focusing on "jabbing" at the keys, i.e. pressing them with a fast motion.

[swagmaster420x]

well, the loudness is determined by how much force is used to press the keys. hammers strike the strings inside the piano, and seeing as you probably cant increase the mass of the hammers, you want to focus instead on increasing acceleration (Force = mass*acceleration). basically, just make the keys you're pressing, which push the hammers, drop as fast as possible. you can accelerate the keys more by putting more of your body weight into the keys but it seems easier to do by instead focusing on "jabbing" at the keys, i.e. pressing them with a fast motion.

of course, this is just for loudness. the "power" other ppl were talking about you wuld just have to feel it i guess.

[indianajo]

Note also that "FF' is relative, and your ff and somebody elses may be different.  I am male, but I was watching two African Am women at the gym last night, use the arm machines at 50 and 70 pounds, where as I am appropriately sore today having exercised at ten and twenty pounds.  My body is not built for heavy work, I'm designed to run down a deer in the mountains until the deer overheats and quits, whereby I could spear it.  So if I play even half as heavily as Lang-Lang appears to, I get tendonitis.  My ff is softer than his, but my ff is a volume I can maintain at emotional peaks a couple of hours.
Building strength, if you do it right, your muscle is slightly sore the next day.  Not massively sore.  The next day you are supposed to stretch the soreness out.  Piano teachers never teach this part of the regime.  Look in an ergonomics book at the librarly for appropriate stretching exercises for forearm muscles.  I use them when practicing piano, and I learned them from the factory safety department, not the piano teacher. I use Scott Joplin rags for a daily strength drill, not some boring exercise.  
I agree with the previous poster, the piano volume is based on the velocity the key achieves as it moves down.  Hitting the felt at the bottom hard serves no purpose.
The long volume exercise posted above just seems weird to me.  I was taught to listen for the resulting volume and make an art of it, and that works fine for me.  As I am left handed, I was taught to emphasize the top note almost all the time.  I suppose right handed people may have trouble being too bright by emphasizing the top note. but I have to do that or it all sounds like John McVie was playing bass alone. without the other Fleetwood Macs.  

[faulty_damper]

In the WRONG case you say the energy pushes back and it causes my problem.
in the RIGHT approach you write it comes back to me.
Why the problem should be different?
thanks

You are already experiencing the wrong case since you have pain due to overexertion of the muscles.  The the method I suggested, you aren't pushing against yourself and aren't co-contracting.