Hypermobility, new topic

[chopin2015]

Hello! and yes, I am stopping by to say "Howdy!" .

Soooo...I've never had such pain before, but recently my (hyper) index finger joints really hurt after any practice. Now, my wrists hurt every time I try to keep playing as before (in a way that focuses on avoiding excessive weight on the index finger).

I have not found anything on curing the annoying weakness. I have it in all my fingers, and possibly my back.

I am working on strengthening the index finger, but I just do not see much help. I actually found that I literally cannot do anything but play piano and type.

I can't hold a pen, I can't easily carry things, I can't hold things without needing a break...

Could y'all throw some tips on avoiding injury and maybe strengthening exercises?

I actually found that every day, I have to start all over. I mean sitting, scales, arpeggios, chords, hand position, very slowly and building up tempo, just like the day before. Then, I can play pieces but have to have many different ones, and focus very hard with my brain. I found my fingers are very unreliable and need constant attention. It takes a very long time, and every day I have to do this. Or they will hurt.

Any thoughts, feelings? Experiences?

[dima_76557]

chopin2015

I think you should try and find a Taubman teacher in your area. I don't like the "strength", "weight" and "building tempo" elements in your post. Sounds like you may be doing things that are way too forceful. To move a key and get tone, you really don't need much. Even 5-year olds can make quite a noise with their weak structures. If your problem is really hypermobility, then strength exercises are not going to help you much anyway; only focus on proper alignment can eventually do it for you.

Tempo should also not be "built". It is the natural result of efficient movement and should never be "developed" as a goal in itself. In terms of speed, virtually any person can do what the music requires provided he/she moves correctly.

Have you ever tried practising without aural feedback? I think that could be very useful for you, because your ears seem to require what your hands can't do. A silent keyboard gives you more opportunity to focus on moving efficiently.

Are you in some kind of musical institute (conservatory, etc.)? Seems like you practise a lot (3 hours on a good day; up to 8 hours a day on a bad day, as I read in another thread).

P.S.: Do you have medical problems with your ears? Sounds funny, but motoric problems may have their source there. In that case, you should talk to a specialist. Solving the ear problems may help solve the motorics.

EDIT: Pain killers may also cause certain problems you describe. Are you taking any of those regularly?

[outin]

Hello! and yes, I am stopping by to say "Howdy!" .

Soooo...I've never had such pain before, but recently my (hyper) index finger joints really hurt after any practice. Now, my wrists hurt every time I try to keep playing as before (in a way that focuses on avoiding excessive weight on the index finger).

I have not found anything on curing the annoying weakness. I have it in all my fingers, and possibly my back.

I am working on strengthening the index finger, but I just do not see much help. I actually found that I literally cannot do anything but play piano and type.

I can't hold a pen, I can't easily carry things, I can't hold things without needing a break...

Could y'all throw some tips on avoiding injury and maybe strengthening exercises?

I actually found that every day, I have to start all over. I mean sitting, scales, arpeggios, chords, hand position, very slowly and building up tempo, just like the day before. Then, I can play pieces but have to have many different ones, and focus very hard with my brain. I found my fingers are very unreliable and need constant attention. It takes a very long time, and every day I have to do this. Or they will hurt.

Any thoughts, feelings? Experiences?

Sorry to hear that 
Knowing how much you have to work with it must be really difficult to cope with. I experience similar things, but for me the investment on the playing has been much less...

It is extremely frustrating to have fingers and other joints that cannot naturally hold stability or carry any weight. I think Dima is right, one has to learn to do everything in just the right way to avoid the need to rely on the missing strength. It's a constant struggle to balance between weak playing and extensive tension building. And the progress is so slow...one day you find a way and the playing feels like it should and the next day you're back the way you were. It's like constantly retraining although I never had much to retrain from. It's not just the fingers, it's the whole back/neck/arm/wrist/knuckles/fingers combination that requires constant attention. And I can never tell if the pains I have are from playing or not, since I have suffered such pains all my life.

I have found some help in returning to much lower level material that is easy to memorize and doesn't require much attention from the musical point of view. I think my teacher still doesn't understand how difficult certain simple physical movements can be for me to learn and keep. I may spend an hour on the piano just trying to play a few single notes in a certain way. Doesn't leave much time to learn pieces.

I hope you can find the strength to stick with it and possibly find someone who knows how to help.

[nyiregyhazi]

Hello! and yes, I am stopping by to say "Howdy!" .

Soooo...I've never had such pain before, but recently my (hyper) index finger joints really hurt after any practice. Now, my wrists hurt every time I try to keep playing as before (in a way that focuses on avoiding excessive weight on the index finger).

I have not found anything on curing the annoying weakness. I have it in all my fingers, and possibly my back.

I am working on strengthening the index finger, but I just do not see much help. I actually found that I literally cannot do anything but play piano and type.

I can't hold a pen, I can't easily carry things, I can't hold things without needing a break...

Could y'all throw some tips on avoiding injury and maybe strengthening exercises?

I actually found that every day, I have to start all over. I mean sitting, scales, arpeggios, chords, hand position, very slowly and building up tempo, just like the day before. Then, I can play pieces but have to have many different ones, and focus very hard with my brain. I found my fingers are very unreliable and need constant attention. It takes a very long time, and every day I have to do this. Or they will hurt.

Any thoughts, feelings? Experiences?

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/collapsing-fingers-simple-illustration.html

This post covered the basic means of fixing collapse. Start with your nails down flat and expand back and away from that point. Also, the post before that would probably help with the issue of how much weight you really need. When you connect the arm in the right way it's not much. But you must find length in the wrist first or you'll just be stiff.

[chopin2015]

I forgot to add that all my joints in my hand are hyper mobile, but the only one that has an issue with extreme weakness is my right hand index finger. the other one seems to be fine and doesn't hurt. But the right one feels extra weak.

Dima, I do have ear problems...I am having to have a 4th ear surgery on my left ear because of a cholesteatoma. However, I have no problems with balance, and trust me, I have noooo problem playing fast. In fact, that is the reason I play slow. So that I can visually keep up with my playing and see if my fingers are collapsing. I know that I should feel the difference, and I do...it's called muscle strain in the forearm...haha

The problem is that keeping the joint in the right position requires muscle to hold the entire finger in such a way that keeps the joint fixed...

I really do need to take using all of my body and arm to the next level; I stretch and do yoga, but now I need to start working out.

A lot of my practice is focusing on position of the hand and movement.


Outin, thank you. It is important to meditate at the piano. It is also important to stretch and exercise and keep your blood pumping.

I just can't seem to avoid injury lately. I used to practice 4 hours a day, solid. Not any problems. Now, I sometimes only practice 3 and it can result in pain...I may be working too hard but honestly, it is how much I would like to be working.

Someone, please help me to where I can work as much as I want to!

[nyiregyhazi]

The problem is that keeping the joint in the right position requires muscle to hold the entire finger in such a way that keeps the joint fixed...

Please don't think of fixing joints! This completely explains why you're over working. Did you read the post I linked? You don't need to lock anything. You need to learn how to move in a manner that does not cause destabilisation. Anything that pulls that joint backwards or down will collapse it. Anything which is sending it forwards over the top of the fingertip will keep it from abruptly giving way. The distinction between these two styles of movement is everything. Trying to lock the joint is both more work and actually far less stable than when you move it in a productive path. When you start with the nail touching and down flat and push yourself back you will never collapse. Over time you can adapt this same lengthening action into a completely normal pianistic movement, that starts on the pad rather than on the flat fingernail.

[outin]

I forgot to add that all my joints in my hand are hyper mobile, but the only one that has an issue with extreme weakness is my right hand index finger. the other one seems to be fine and doesn't hurt. But the right one feels extra weak.

Do you use the computer a lot these days? Do you use the mouse with your RH index finger?

I never had any problems with my computer habits before I started playing the piano. I could work 12 hours with the mouse. And I had a rather bad way of typing... Now I have to be careful not to overdue it, otherwise I start getting wrist problems.