How much should I pay for a brand new U3 or a U5

[trucdan]

Hi there,
I owned a U1 Yamaha and i need to give it to my sister.  I am thinking about getting a new U3 for myself, but I don't know how much should I pay for a brand new one.
I am living in San Jose, California.  Normally, I've seen advertise asking around $3000-$4500 for a used U3 and those pianos are around 20 years old or so.

So How much should I pay for a BRAND NEW U3 and Where I can get it in San Jose?

Thank YOu all and hope to hear from someone here soon.

Truc

[cysoto]

That's a very difficult question to answer.  There are many variable to consider (does the price include delivery and setup, does it include a service contract, will they include the taxes on the price of the unit, are you paying cash or credit, etc.)

This is what I found out in my home town of Denver, Colorado...  A new Yamaha U3 (bought at the only Yamaha dealer in Denver) retails for $9,500 + 3.9% tax + aprox. $180.00 for delivery.  This price includes set up and two tuning within the first year (very much standard).  The U5 retails for $11,500.00 (plus the same for the other stuff).  As I am sure you are well aware of, the U5 and U3 are basically the same piano with the exception of (1) The Sostenutto Pedal (U5) vs the Practice Pedal (U3) and (2) the front panel of the U5 lifts up to allow more sound to project through the front of the unit.  Personally I was not convinced that these small details were worth the extra money but, ultimately this is for each buyer to decide for themselves.

Just FYI...  I recently ended up buying a 1977 refurbished U3 (gray market) for $2,750.00  The unit is in perfect shape and practically undistinguishable from a new one.  After reading quite a bit on the theme of Gray Market vs "Seasoned for Destination" I concluded that this is nothing more than a selling point that local dealers need to make in order to sell their pianos at a higher price.  As long as you maintain the piano at an appropriate temperature and humidity level you should be fine.  It is also important to service all pianos periodically to make sure that they are fully functional.  Then again, this is only my opinion so: who cares what I think anyway??   

[trucdan]

Thanks for the information.  I bought a 1992 U1 last year for $2600 including shipping + Bench + one tunning.  The piano was imported from Japan and in the original condition.  According to this importer/saler, reconditioned piano is not good (it's what he said).  I am not an expert so I have no idea about it.

There is one importer in my area and he's selling reconditioned U3 for around $3500 (including shipping + bench +tunning).  May be I should check this saler's U3.

I called a local dealer today asking about the U3 and they give me a quote for $11,500.  I don't know how much I can lower  .

In my opinion, brand new is the best, then a used one but in the original condition, then the last would be a reconditioned one.  Any thought?

Thanks.

Truc

[Axtremus]

trucdan wrote: "In my opinion, brand new is the best, then a used one but in the original condition, then the last would be a reconditioned one."

Won't argue about "brand new" except to note that some pianos will "develop" and sound better after it has been played-in a bit and get more expert care from competent technicians. But between the "used, original condition" and the "used, reconditioned," the "original condition" could be very bad to begin with, or the work of the "reconditioning" could be extremely sloppy to make it worse. It really boils down to the individual piano's "condition" right then and there, "original" or otherwise.

[nipon gaki]

ok referring to the "grey market " pianos.
in my experience, the dealers told me about grey market, as did yamaha.com website.
Yamaha tells you the piano is not made for this country and will not handle any warranty issues or parts for the grey market pianos.

if you can not tell any difference between a new piano an one 20+ years old, I wouldn't put much stock in your opinion.

[cysoto]

ok referring to the "grey market " pianos.
in my experience, the dealers told me about grey market, as did yamaha.com website.
Yamaha tells you the piano is not made for this country and will not handle any warranty issues or parts for the grey market pianos.

if you can not tell any difference between a new piano an one 20+ years old, I wouldn't put much stock in your opinion.

Boy Nipon, you sure don’t sound too smart so I guess I’ll try to explain my post again.      This time S-L-O-O-O-O-W-L-Y so you understand… 

I said in my post that the piano was built in 1977 (approximately 27 years ago).  Yamaha will no longer repair this unit under warranty so it doesn’t matter if they won’t cover any warranty issues.  I received a one-year warranty on parts and labor from the seller (which BTW is a Piano Retailer and not a private individual).  Parts are also not covered under warranty but Yamaha will sell parts to third-party suppliers which will sell products to individuals or retailers regardless of whether the piano is Gray Market or not.  Since you wouldn't put “much stock” in my opinion, you may ask any technician and they will tell you that this information is correct.  Better yet, you may want to read what Larry Fine has to say in his book about this subject; you may find it fascinating.  (You said you could read, right??)

As I mentioned earlier the unit I bought has been refurbished.  In this particular case the piano was re-strung, the hammers where reshaped, the piano was voiced and the coating was buffed and polished.  I had it checked by technician (a member of the Piano Technicians Guild) and he said that everything seems to be working just fine.  Hopefully, as long as I do my part and keep the temperature and humidity at an optimal level and, as long as I have the piano maintained regularly, I shouldn’t be seeing any major problems.  Like I said before: this piano is practically undistinguishable from a new one.  “PRACTICALLY” being the operative word.  Yes I know it’s not new but most people would have a hard time distinguishing this piano from a new one on the retailer’s selling floor. 
 

[nipon gaki]

hey costco,

go to yamaha.com and read the staement page on grey market pianos.
If you need to order a part from yamaha you need to give them the serial
# of the piano. From that point they see that the piano was not made fo US destination and will refuse your order.

"rebuilt" is a term that is loose at best. normaly these brokers get the pianos from asia, shave the hammers to make look new(not replace) restring the piano...doubt it. they just use steel wool to clean off oxidation.  take a look at your soundboard..I bet there are shims filling old cracks.....plus the life has been drained from the board. Dead unresonate sound is the result.

buying a 25+ year old piano is not the wisest of choices, especially when yamaha is so inexpensive. And the edaler for whom came you a warranty is probably no where near you. Do you think your warranty issues after sale are important for him?? What about tuning pins and pin block. After that age the block has no where near the strength of a new piano. Pins...I bet loose or maybe fatter pins have been inserted. Either way the pianos in Asia have way more use than normal pianos. Most come from schools. Ever seen a University practice room piano??? A piano in a normal home gets an hour or two of use at best....College pianos get up to 12 hours of playing a day. Do the math ....those used grey market pianos are U-S-E-D...so bad that Asia has no use for them. Cheap Americans however are perfect targets for these pianos.

and good luck w/ your investment costco, or cystco or whatever your name is. i'm sure your musical skills are on par w/ your savy business sense.

[cysoto]

hey costco,

go to yamaha.com and read the staement page on grey market pianos.
If you need to order a part from yamaha you need to give them the serial
# of the piano. From that point they see that the piano was not made fo US destination and will refuse your order.

"rebuilt" is a term that is loose at best. normaly these brokers get the pianos from asia, shave the hammers to make look new(not replace) restring the piano...doubt it. they just use steel wool to clean off oxidation.  take a look at your soundboard..I bet there are shims filling old cracks.....plus the life has been drained from the board. Dead unresonate sound is the result.

buying a 25+ year old piano is not the wisest of choices, especially when yamaha is so inexpensive. And the edaler for whom came you a warranty is probably no where near you. Do you think your warranty issues after sale are important for him?? What about tuning pins and pin block. After that age the block has no where near the strength of a new piano. Pins...I bet loose or maybe fatter pins have been inserted. Either way the pianos in Asia have way more use than normal pianos. Most come from schools. Ever seen a University practice room piano??? A piano in a normal home gets an hour or two of use at best....College pianos get up to 12 hours of playing a day. Do the math ....those used grey market pianos are U-S-E-D...so bad that Asia has no use for them. Cheap Americans however are perfect targets for these pianos.

and good luck w/ your investment costco, or cystco or whatever your name is. i'm sure your musical skills are on par w/ your savy business sense.

My-Oh-My nipon…  You’re reading problem is worse than I thought!!  You are probably going to have to ask your Mommy for some help reading this post to see if she can explain the meaning of some of those symbols that are so alien to you (us grown-ups call these symbols: words!)

First of all, my user name is not costco or cystco.  I know that this is a hard name to remember but, if you try really, really hard I’m sure that you’ll be able to spell it right. 

Unlike you, I have read the statement found at Yamaha.com in reference to Gray Market pianos.  They do say that they make different models, some of which are not sold in the US, for which it they won’t keep parts in stock.  The part that you refuse to understand is that the U3 is not one of these pianos.  In terms of parts the Gray Market U3 and the US Market U3 are built using the same components.  Any piano (not only those labeled “Seasoned for Destination”) should be kept at optimal temperature and humidity to prevent any serious problems with warping of the wood and other related issues.  This is where a humidifier comes in handy.  Neither you nor I can purchase directly from Yamaha.  You have to obtain replacement parts through a third party distributor (be it your local Yamaha retailer or a qualified technician).

Now, lets address some other of your very colorful but idiotic comments…  You talk about all these faults that every Grey Market Piano has: loose pins, cracked soundboards, etc.  I also said that the hammers had been reshaped not replaced.  This was part of the voicing process - and the piano is sporting new strings.  This I know for a fact because I saw them doing this a couple of days before delivery.  Mainly because I asked them to do this and because it was part of the pre-purchase agreement.  Older strings tend to sound somewhat muted and I like to have a nice bright sound for the type of music I play mostly (Jazz).  This way I can be certain that the new strings will last a long time. 

If you take time to re-read my post I clearly stated that I had this piano looked over by a certified piano technician.  A gentleman that not only is very well respected in his field but also a good friend of mine.  This person did a very thorough check of the unit and said that he couldn’t find any problems with it. 

You state that these pianos are pounded on for twelve hours every day because you know that it used to belong to some type of music school.  I’m sure that a little gnome told you this precious bit of information but keep in mind that you can’t believe everything that the gnomes tell you.

This next comment was particularly interesting.  You say that buying an old Yamaha piano is not a wise choice because [new] Yamaha pianos are “so inexpensive”.  Well, I must say that it must sure be nice to have a rich Daddy that can buy you all the new Yamaha pianos that you would like but some of us grown-ups have to work hard to earn a salary.  In the case of this cheap non-American, $10,000 for a new Yamaha upright is a lot of money so I had to look for one in the used market. 

i'm sure your musical skills are on par w/ your savy business sense

Although it is obvious that you meant for this remark to be offensive, because of very personal reasons (which I will not bother to explain - and even if I did you probably wouldn’t understand) I will actually take this one as a compliment.

Nipon, I honestly believe that you should read my posts more carefully before posting your responses.  I do believe that you have a serious reading deficiency and I will advice you that you should probably stop spending so much time surfing the Web (looking at those websites that your Mommy has told you not to) and you should spend more time studying.  You do need to improve your reading ability if you expect to graduate from Elementary School and become a policeman or a firefighter one day.  Study hard and stay away from drugs; they are bad for you (even if the little gnomes tells you otherwise).   

[trucdan]

Sorry guys if my post created some problem here  .

I am not a professional piano player but I've play classical guitar for many years so my ears can tell a difference in sound.  Since I didn't know much about piano so I did bought "the piano book" and have spent some time to read it.

I've also checked many used yamaha piano, U1, U3 and UX and I can conclude that the best thing is ...to buy a new one.  However, it's not easy to come up with $10,000 to get a new one.  So the solution is try to find a GOOD used one.

The problem in buying a used Yamaha is that you don't know if that piano is a a used one or a Gray market one.  Normally, when you locate a private seller who wants to sell a used Yamaha, he/she just told you that they bought it used from another person, etc.  I only came accross a few private sellers who told me that the piano they are selling is a Gray market one.  Some importers do tell me that they are selling Reconditioned Yamaha.

I happened to know an importer who imports used Yamaha and sell them "as is".  His price is a little bit higher than other importers but the piano are youngers, from 84 to 90' or so.  What he did is to buy used piano but in good condition then import to USA and resale them here.  Last year I bought a 1992 U1 for $2600, including shipping and one tunning.  The piano look very good and sound good.  I would buy from him again but at this time he doesn't have any U3 or Ux.   I have to wait for him, may be next year.

Yesterday I checked some reconditioned U3 and I really don't like them at all.  The piano was made in 1980 and they got a new pain.  But the pain doesn't look good at all, it's not smooth.  I don't like the sound from those U3.  I can't explain how but they just sound "not right" to me. 

I will check a used piano next week.  It was bought brand new in 1998 and it is a U3.  The seller is asking for $4800 and I have to pay for the shipping.  Is it a reasonable price?  The seller told me that his piano is still under guarantee.  But I don't know if the guarantee is transferable?  ANy one knows about it?

Truc

[cysoto]

Sorry guys if my post created some problem here.

There is no problem here; we are just having a little fun (at least on my part).  This is no more than just a friendly "verbal tug-of-war".  I believe that nipon is entitled to his opinion and I am not here to try to change it.  It's possible that he has had some very valid reasons to think the way he does.  I'm just giving him a hard time. 

The seller told me that his piano is still under guarantee.  But I don't know if the guarantee is transferable?  Any one knows about it?

The Yamaha warranty is not transferable.  Larry Fine wrote the following statement in his book: "Yamaha has a limited ten-year warranty on all its pianos...  It covers parts and labor and its not transferable to future owners."  He also states that there is an exclusion to problems due to defects in design or manufacturing.  [The Piano Book 4th ed p156].

I am not a professional piano player but I've play classical guitar for many years so my ears can tell a difference in sound.

Well said!!  That's what it all boils down to. 

[nipon gaki]

costco....
didnt mean to upset you.....you still are an *** w/ alot pent up rage. probably from mastubatory abuse driving you to bitter insanity.

i sure you are a LONLY individual.

ps...in case you had a hard time understanding my post.
"*** YOU"...hopefully that should be clear enough for you.

[Daniel_piano]

In my opinion, brand new is the best, then a used one but in the original condition, then the last would be a reconditioned one.  Any thought?

Believe, it's not true
I went to see some used/new pianos today
I brought with me the Conservatory Tuner (this guy has a wonderful ear)
We hear the sound of a new U3 and a reconditioned U3
The tuner (who also has a diploma in organ, piano, composition and orchestra conducting) said me that the there were almost no difference between the new and the reconditioned
Not only this, but he also told me (having years of experience behind) that for a student a used piano is far more better than a new one as it make takes years before the piano tune to the human usage, before that the keys are tight and hard and the wood is still to fresh to expand the sound in the good way

Reconditioned pianos are like new as the keys, the hammers, the strings are completely substituted with new ones and the wood is restoned
They are 20 years old but they look like they're brand new
The price is 50% lower and the sound and touch is even better

Daniel

[nipon gaki]

daniel,
your tech doesn't know his ass from a tuning fork. He may also have some sort of mentel retardation you are not aware .....what is a "conservatory tuner"? never heard that.....you sir are so stupid you dont deserve a yamaha...try accordian, you putz.

[trucdan]

Recondition a piano is just like...Rebuild engines in cars.  It's depend on Who do it.  Some cars with rebuild engines run very well, but others might be not that well.  Same thing goes with rebuild or reconditioned pianos.  The reconditioned I've seen around here are not good.  Sound is not good and the paint job looks terrible.  But I believe that you can come accross some good reconditoned one. 

One thing you should know that Yamaha doesn't sell parts to support gray market piano.  I really don't know Where the shops get the parts to rebuild the piano.  I once asked the seller where he got the parts and he didn't have the answers.  He just told me that it is "after market" parts which they used to rebuild the piano.  The question is how good those "after market" parts could be? 

Truc

[Daniel_piano]

One thing you should know that Yamaha doesn't sell parts to support gray market piano.  I really don't know Where the shops get the parts to rebuild the piano.  I once asked the seller where he got the parts and he didn't have the answers.  He just told me that it is "after market" parts which they used to rebuild the piano.  The question is how good those "after market" parts could be? 

Truc

I don't know
These piano have been reconditioned by Yamaha itself and the shop where I went was a Yamaha autorized branch retailer
Maybe the situation is different here in Europe than it is in the USA
They have the stick "original yamaha reconditioning" on all of them

Daniel

[Daniel_piano]

what is a "conservatory tuner"?

The person that tune every month all the 100 pianos at my music accademy


Daniel

[Daniel_piano]

I asked more information right now
The shop where I go doesn't recondition the piano by itself they get them from a big piano supplier agency
I phoned the piano supplier and they told me they're a branch of Yamaha
They don't recondition the piano, Yamaha did this in their other branches in Taiwan
So, Yamaha itself got all used pianos from Japan after they've been used 20 or 30 years and they're reconditioned at Taiwan with Yamaha pieces for the European market
They sold at the supplier and the supplier sold them to my shop that just retail them
I've Yamaha Assistance Center number on my P120 instruction
I phoned them to confirm this, and they confirmed that the pianos I saw with the stick "Original Yamaha" on them, was real Yamaha pianos recondition funded and made by Yamaha branches

Daniel


Daniel

[Daniel_piano]

The reconditioned I've seen around here are not good.  Sound is not good and the paint job looks terrible.  But I believe that you can come accross some good reconditoned one.

You're right, it depends on the recondition
All the reconditioned piano I've seen, played and heard and have examined by experts seems like new
The point is that if the action is only renewed then the piano sund and touch is worse than a used one
But a true recondition means that the action is completely substitued not just renewed
I always bring with me a piano expert when I go and see piano and I was assured that the action of all the reconditioned piano I've seen has been completely substituted with a new one, not merely renewed

Since the piano I was had completely substitued board, keyboard, strings, action, hammers and blocks I didn't recognize the difference of sound between the reconditioned and the new one, the piano expert I brought with me too said there were very few unpreceptible differences between the fully reconditioned and the new one

If the one you was were not fully reconditioned but merely partially renewed, that would explain why they did not sound good

Daniel
 

One thing you should know that Yamaha doesn't sell parts to support gray market piano.  I really don't know Where the shops get the parts to rebuild the piano.  I once asked the seller where he got the parts and he didn't have the answers.  He just told me that it is "after market" parts which they used to rebuild the piano.  The question is how good those "after market" parts could be? 

Truc

[cysoto]

costco....
didnt mean to upset you.....you still are an not a very nice person w/ alot pent up rage. probably from mastubatory abuse driving you to bitter insanity.

i sure you are a LONLY individual.

ps...in case you had a hard time understanding my post.
"*** YOU"...hopefully that should be clear enough for you

My dear child nipon, that’s not a vocabulary that a child of your age should be using; your Mommy is going to be very mad at you. 

I do feel obligated to tell you that the word: “masturbatory” has an “R” in it; and the word: “lonely” has an “E”. 

Sadly I do have a hard time understanding you because you simply can’t write worth a dime.  Like I have told you many times before: you need to study more (or at least use a spell checker). 

I don’t want to hear excuses like telling me that English is not your first language because it isn’t my first language either and at least I can write better than you.

"*** YOU"...hopefully that should be clear enough for you

The first word that came to mind when I read this was a profanity but I am sure that was not what you meant to write because you only wrote 3 stars - and the word I was thinking about has four.  Could you please be more specific?

daniel,
your tech doesn't know his ass from a tuning fork. He may also have some sort of mentel retardation you are not aware .....what is a "conservatory tuner"? never heard that.....you sir are so stupid you dont deserve a yamaha...try accordian, you putz.

Nipon; boy-oh-boy…  Talk about having pinned aggression!!  If you keep up with this attitude you’ll soon find yourself all alone.  Nobody will want to play with you and your only consolation will be to “spank your itsy-bitsy monkey”.  This will drive you to the edge of insanity and then, you’ll have to spend your time antagonizing poor little boys on the Internet. 

[trucdan]

I wouldn't mind to buy an used piano which was reconditioned by Yamaha.  You are lucky to have that kind of deal in your country.  From what I've known, there is no such a thing in USA.  I've heard that Yamaha will certify used piano in the near future but there is nothing now.  I did come accross some used U1, U3 from the stores and those used piano come with one year part and labor from the store itself, not from Yamaha.

Truc

[Axtremus]

trucdan,

If you want to be more careful about buying a good used piano, one option is, after you found a used piano that you like, to hire an independent piano technician to inspect the piano for you before you buy. (Just like you'd hire an independent mechanic to inspect a used car for you before you buy.)

Good luck.

[nipon gaki]

you people dont understand that the humidity levels yamaha is talking about  regaurding "grey market pianos"  are not referring to outside but indoors. In japan, people rarley have or use air conditioning, and more rare is any sort of heating. The enviroment in aisian homes is more humid than american homes. that is where the problem is. Yes if you are in new orleans the humidity is as high as it is in japan, but INDOORS the humidity level is that of the rest of the civilized world that uses AC.

So there are different moisture contents in the soundboard pin blocks and rims on yamaha pianos

hope that clears up the confusion on grey market pianos

[Daniel_piano]

I was not talking about grey market pianos
They're lecit and legal and Yamaha authorized dealers
The pianos I'm talking about have been completely reconditionated, not merely renewed or sprayed

Daniel

[trucdan]

I finally bought a U3 last weekend.  It is a polished Mahogany U3 manufactoried in 1996 (have Yamaha verified it).  And it is in a "like new" condition.  The owner didn't have much time to play it, and she only had it tunned one after they bought it.  When I tested the piano, the sound is not that pleasant,  But I think it is because it hasn't played that often.  But inside the cabinet every thing is shinny.

I paid $5000 for it.  It is the asking price and no discount at all.  But I am happy that I got this one.

After the piano arrived and settle down for a day, the sound is much better (I played a few hours with it).  I think I would need to wait about 4 more weeks or so to have it tunned.

I noticed that some keys are not "stable".  They're kinda move "side way".  WHen I play a note, instead of going down straight, the key moves to the right a bit then going down.  Am not sure what causes the problem but I hope the technician might be able to get it fixed.  Any idea?

TrucDan

[nipon gaki]

probably just needs some regulation
congrads on your new piano

[Sydney]

In japan, people rarley have or use air conditioning, and more rare is any sort of heating. Yes if you are in new orleans the humidity is as high as it is in japan, but INDOORS the humidity level is that of the rest of the civilized world that uses AC.

Phew...I am now very happy that I may consider nipon gaki non-Japanese. Excuse me, but do you really believe that they don't use A/C in Japan? Are you talking about the Japan where Panasonic, Sony, Sharp, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Daikin etc. were born? Oh, I see! Maybe you were talking about japan, not Japan, which was spelled with all small letters in your message....

Without A/C, they cannot survive in the most part of Japan, especially from hot and humid rainy season to still very hot early autumn. Have you ever seen the statistics of the ratio of the houses in Japan with A/C installed?

As Daniel have kindly suggested you, I think you should better study hard - not only English skills, but also "Common Sense".

[cysoto]

As Daniel have kindly suggested you, I think you should better study hard - not only English skills, but also "Common Sense".

Hey Sydney,

I've given up on nipon gaki.  His stupidity is beyond my comprehension. 

As others have done before me,  I have just chosen to ignore his moronic comments.  Nipon's idiocy might be contagious so I strongly urge you to do the same.   

[Axtremus]

trucdan, congratulations on the new piano!

As for whether the Japanese uses A/C -- they do now, but a lot less 30 years ago. Same with the homes in many parts of South and South-East Asia that's even hotter and more humid than Japan. Usually, when "seasoned for destination" Yamahas are involved, people are talking about OLD pianos, and the Amreican style whole house heating and A/C systems really were very rare in Asia when those OLD pianos were made. A lot of Asian countries did not begin to industrialize until the 1970's, and the "Asian Tigers" did not come about until the later half of the 1980's. People there just don't go about installing A/C until the economies have really boomed and the standard of living substantially raised for the middle class. Not saying you should believe Yamaha's "season for destination" story because of this, but it's plausible.