Musicality playing Bach ?

[stefo78]

Hello,

I tried to learn Invention n°13 of J.S.Bach. I think I do not understand how we play Bach. For me it seems very mecanical, with low musicality. Is there something I need to understand ? I do not find many answers in the interpretations I come across.

Here is the way I play it : do you think I need to keep on working on it ? How ?
By the way, looking at the video I see my hands do not seem very relaxed : do you agree ? Should I also work on this ?

Thanks !
Stefo

[awesom_o]

I tried to learn Invention n°13 of J.S.Bach. I think I do not understand how we play Bach. For me it seems very mecanical, with low musicality. Is there something I need to understand ?
Thanks !
Stefo

You need to understand how to play it less mechanically and with greater musicality. My best advice would be to listen to other instruments play the music of Bach. Listen to great violinists and great cellists.
When you played, it was very flat, almost one-dimensional. A real piano, instead of a digital, would be helpful.

But for me, the biggest problem was that it sounded like you were playing both voices.... but that you weren't really listening to how the two voices relate to each other.

[gyzzzmo]

take a good teacher. The dynamics in Bach are in general more subtle than for example romantic composers. Listening to recordings usually wont work that well.

[faulty_damper]

Feels like this should be in the audition room.

Like awesom O said, it lacked expression.  It may help to think that the phrases say something unique, but the way it was played was like a run-on sentence from beginning to end.  A lot of the musical meaning was completely ignored and that made it sound flat, which is gyzzzmo referred to.

Expression comes about from:
1. dynamics
2. tempo
3. articulation
4. relation to other voices

There were some parts that were played well, like the opening couple of seconds and 18"-25".

[nanabush]

One of my teachers was all about assigning 'characters' to different elements in a piece (this was while I was working on a Mozart Sonata).

-a huge thing in Bach is the voicing.  The two/three part inventions are awesome for working on this!  Try playing small sections, bringing out one hand at a time.  Try it with different articulations, just to see how malleable these phrases actually are.

-another thing you can work on is following the line, or the harmony (depending how comfortable you are with harmonic analysis).  Maybe write out the underlying chords; Bach often uses a circle of fifths, and I'm pretty sure he uses one early on in this piece.  New chords are exciting!  This piece is in a minor, and hearing a C major chord is nearly like a breath of fresh air.  Try to become aware of these elements, and see how you react to them when they come up.  You might find that you react now to the music you are playing lol.

Sometimes I'll work on a section of a piece for 10-15 minutes, then finally go "OHHHH!!!!!!" and then it kind of clicks, and I can work on the sound I want to get.  If I was used to just bashing through that section over and over again, I probably would have never discovered whatever subtle thing I came across while practicing it.

It's a little trickier with Bach because it does have a mechanical appearance on the page.  You don't get expressive markings like in Chopin or Debussy, and there aren't nearly as many articulations marked.  They are there though!  You just need to dig into it.

[stefo78]

Thanks a lot. Beginning to understand a bit of all of you said... Need some time more to practice. I wasn't aware of all which can be done with this kind of piece.

I hope I will not be bored with this one too soon... ! And that I will be able to post a significant progress next time !

[alpacinator1]

When playing the C Major fugue, I tend to vary my speed and loudness slightly based on the complexity of the phrase, so I'm going louder as faster in the densest parts with all 4 voices, and in the simple parts with 1-2 voices I am playing very softly and lyrically. I can tell where the crescendos should be by looking at the density of the notes. It should be subtle, though. It's not a romantic piece so it can't be too dramatic. Just enough to keep it from sounding monotonous.

[pianoisthebest23]

If you want some new perspective in Bach you could look up the Swingle Singers. I don't know how much they have available online but they are a group of people who sing different pieces of Bach almost a cappella but usually with some sort of bass accompaniment. They do it in a jazz style and I find it very interesting to listen to (just make sure not to start swinging Bach at the piano!) 

[stefo78]

Hi,

OK, I tried to play it differently. Thinking about voicing, I tried to bring the melody jumping from one hand to another. In fact, it appears that my thought during play “jumps” also from one hand to another.

My girlfriend told me that was much more interesting to hear this, than before. So I put the link to ask for your comments. I realize listening to other performances on youtube that there is much more to be done... But will I be bored before getting to something really good ?

Working on the jumps of my thoughts, I also realized that I was completely unable, for all that I play, to think about my two hands at the same time. The other hand (this one I do not think about when playing) seems to play automatically. Do you know what I mean and do you have the same problem ? I say this is a problem since a thought of my two hands at the same time should be better for musicality (I suppose so). Maybe I will do a specific topic for that if needed.

 

[indianajo]

I play a piece enough times where it is all automatic, as far as what note comes next.  then I am free to think about volume, speed, articulation.  If you don't have the Busoni transcriptions, look at them, he works out exactly which notes "should" be separated and which ones should be legato together.  It comes out very standardized since he lived in 1860, but I love the sound of his markings. I never hear anybody on the radio doing Busoni markings, either. 
The piano gives one the ability to mess with volume on individual notes.  I like to accent odd ones, which is a jazz type of practice, but which probably would drive a baroque purist that played harsichord to a frenzy of criticism.  I do inventions 2,4,8,11,13, 14, and occassionally when I feel sad,  9. 

[jjjessee]

Probably my very favorite Invention.
You've put some good work into it and just about have it together.
Now what I would do is take it back apart.  I think you're performance would benefit most from some articulation changes and that's probably going to mean hands alone phrase by phrase experimenting with subtle accents and staccato to give it some air. Think about singing the parts. Where does the singer need a breathe? Once you get  your hands sounding good alone, slowly reassemble them. I've finally started learning the articulation, dynamics as close to the very beginning of learning each phrase in a new work as possible. Playing with good musicality from the earliest stages of learning seems to actually speed up the learning and memorization almost magically.

You might consider giving this piece a rest for a week or few to freshen your ears and  re-learning on something closer to a clean slate. Maybe try working on another Invention in the mean time.
B-flat major is not too hard and fun to play.

Good work, good luck

[swagmaster420x]

i think it would improve way more if you just made the notes sound more even. in your second one you're using too much rubato in my opinion and it sounded jerky because some of the accents and crescendos were so sudden. you can be expressive without exaggerated dynamics. but first i would say work on technique.

[lorcar]

i printed it out two days ago, and -in a clear impetus of hubris- I started reading it.
No biggest troubles HS.
But HT.... fingering is killing me. I downloaded different edition, the first one had a mistake in the first bar, so i trashed it immediately.
How did you choose your fingering? there are a couple of vids showing it

[cometear]

Now what I would do is take it back apart. 

I disagree. There is no need to dissect a piece every time something needs to be added, especially hands separately.

[stefo78]

Lorcar, I didn't have the fingerings, I found mines by myself. However, as suggested by Indianajo, I found a Busoni transcription with fingerings and lots of other interesting stuff to play the piece.

OK, I do not use the fingerings of Busoni - I suppose this will be better to get them. When I go back to this piece, I'll have a check. But let's have a rest on this for now...