Hey guys, want to hear a funny joke? (Hanon exercises)

[mosis]

Today, my teacher said, "Practice Hanon. I know what I'm talking about."

All laughs aside, I wonder, despite it's proven uselessness, why do teachers still recommend? My teacher is a guy who's like, 70, and he's been teaching for well over 40 years. His students have smoked competitions and exams, and many have gotten into universities and gone on to becoming concert pianists elsewhere.

Today we were talking, and I just about ripped his head off. He told me to do Hanon. He told me I needed Hanon and all scales and arpeggios to have the right technical foundation to place my pieces.

I went on for ten minutes about getting technique from pieces, and he kept saying "I'm not talking about technique from pieces. I'm talking about GENERAL technique. Prove me wrong. Practice Hanon and I guarantee these pieces will improve."

It's funny because he enforces parallel sets and many of the things Chang and Bernhard teach, yet he's still caught up in this old, traditional way of pedagogy, and the two completely contradict each other. Why could this be so?

Also, every week, he tells me to bring him a different piece out of all the ones I'm working on. This is getting me absolutely no where. I have been playing for about 3 months now and I can't play a single piece. I can play bits and pieces of many, and the bigger one (Pathetique) is shitty and not even close to speed. He gives me technical advice for a specific piece, and then he tells me to bring him something else. I can't exactly practice that piece he gave me advice for AND give him another one. It's a constant cycle of repetition and I'm getting absolutely no where. I tried talking to him about it but he's stubborn and doesn't listen.

This week I gave him a Bach prelude and the second movement of Pathetique. Next week he wants something different, but I'm thinking that since I'm almost done these two pieces, I'm going to boycott his advice and bring him these two once again. That will give me some proof in my favour (that playing a few pieces consistently is more efficient than playing different onces each week).

It's so frustrating. I mean, he's a great teacher, by the examples his students set, but I'm positive I'm the only one of his students who's actually ever bothered doing some research past what he just teaches them, and this isn't going so well. There's two much contradiction and not enough communication going on, and this is affecting me as a pianist.

Anybody else have any similar teacher troubles?

[Mycroft]

Yep.  I had to let him go at the beginning of this month.  He pushed Hanon and also the John Thompson version of Hanon, so received I two time wasters for the price of one. 

While he would let me present anything I wanted, he would make me play through the piece I was working on (even Fur Elise) even though I wasn't  close to being prepared to play it   This might have helped my sight reading a bit, but it didn't do anything to help me prepare that particular piece since I was hitting wrong notes everywhere.

I'm thinking that I'll look for a new teacher after the holidays.  I'm currently learning the four pieces I've selected without a teacher and it seems to be going fairly well.

[Spatula]

Even my teacher, though very respected and revered and was once an examiner himself, also preaches the "goodness" of Hanon.  For the longest time I thought it'd give me virtuositic skills, but no.  And phoning him 2 years later after I quit piano for the time being, I asked him about Hanon, but still he stood fast by it. 

He's the best teacher I've had, but I want him to prove to me why Hanon's are useful.  It's not that I don't want to do Hanon because I'm lazy, but because I'm confused as to what is the "truth".  Bernhard seems very knowledgable, and so does my teacher.  Perhaps I should ask several concert pianists. 

If Hanon did infact improve technique through some way, then of course I'd be all game for it.

Till then, I'll just show my teacher what Bernie and CC have said before re Hanon, and let him take it from there.

[faulty_damper]

Well, to play on the side that Hanon is useful:

If you are able to play Hanon evenly and smoothly, then it does show something about you and your technique.  If you can't play it evenly (some notes are louder than others) or smoothly (some notes are detached) then if does show your pitfalls.

Of course, there are other ways to demonstrate this for yourself.  One could be how you play your scales and arpeggios.  Another could be how you play a relatively simple piece like one from Mozart.

But why use Hanon if you can use other things to test it?  It's a mindless activity, it's highly repetitive, and because it can be played spanning most of the octaves it must be played well over all of them (if you play it over more than the written range.) 

Another great thing about Hanon is that because it uses the same fingering over and over in each exercise, you can use it as a gauge to see how much you are relaxing or tensioning so if your fingers are burning when you are playing at the 108 tempo, then it means that you are tensioning your finger muscles way too much or are relying on them too much.  This last part assumes you are not playing it the way Hanon has prescribed.  So if you start out on the lower range and your fingers start feeling tired at the higher range, then you are probably using a less effective technique to get the job done.

And perhaps another "good" thing about Hanon is that because you can turn your brain off, you can sit there for hours and hours thereby increasing your stamina to put up with lousy people in general.  Someone is annoying you?  Imagine practicing Hanon and you can turn your brain off!  Incredible, all this that you wouldn't expect with Hanon.

Seriously, how much would we spend time practicing certain tasks if it weren't for Hanon?  The fact that in Hanon it is primarily a finger pushing activity and the more you use your fingers, the better you get at moving them.  So you will become very good at moving your fingers within the small range that Hanon has prescribed.  However, you won't have the practice over larger hand range like octaves or chords or any other aspect of piano technique like skips, tremolos, etc.

And you get to turn your brain off and watch TV and at your next lesson, you can tell your teacher than you spend 20 hours practicing the entire week!  (And you didn't even miss an episode of The Simpson's.  )

[DarkWind]

Awesome, my teacher doesn't do Hanon, Czerny, Pischna, you name it! On top of that, he really puts emphasis on creative, imaginative, and expressive playing, and his teacher studied with Claudio Arrau! Anyways, he's a good teacher so far. Let's see how this evolves.

[Spatula]

But my teacher also does the Dohnanyi exercies, those are good. 

[Neus]

Mosis & Mtcroft,

I’ve just changed teachers and one of the reasons for it was my old teacher’s blind faith on Herz. I was happy to play the scales and arpeggios of the book (for which you don’t really need any book) but couldn’t bear the boring pointless notes of the other excercices. After a few months she wanted me to play some Beyer as well. I refused on the grounds that I had such a short time to practice every day that I could not afford to waste time on things I didn’t like. In spite of it, she gave me assignments of the Beyer book, which I played only once for her. But my conscience hurts because my daughter is still getting lessons from her. 

There were other more reasons that made me leave her, but it would perhaps need another thread.

Neus

[mound]

Today, my teacher said, "Practice Hanon. I know what I'm talking about."
...

It's so frustrating. I mean, he's a great teacher, by the examples his students set, but I'm positive I'm the only one of his students who's actually ever bothered doing some research past what he just teaches them, and this isn't going so well. There's two much contradiction and not enough communication going on, and this is affecting me as a pianist.

Well, I'm not sure where the funny joke is in all of this! Sounds like he's the wrong teacher for you.  Or perhaps, because you are deriving so much knowledge from this forum and comparing it to what he is telling you, unbeknownst to him, you owe it to him and yourself to communicate with him what you are learning, how is he to know otherwise? Then you can have an open line for meaningful communication and discussion about these things. Who knows, maybe you'll open his eyes, maybe he'll open yours. For somebody like him, and elderly gentleman who was brought up on Hanon, and has used it for many years with many students whom have done well, the notion that some punk-ass kid is going to tell him he's wrong, is probably laughable to him!  (Mosis, I'm not  saying your some punk-ass kid but he's probably thinking that hehe)

It's funny because he enforces parallel sets and many of the things Chang and Bernhard teach, yet he's still caught up in this old, traditional way of pedagogy, and the two completely contradict each other. Why could this be so?

Because Chang and Bernhard are forward thinkers and refuse to accept the worth of something blindly. Bernhard and Chang didn't invent this stuff, and  neither did your teacher. You'll find anywhere in life that there are generally two kinds of people (and I see this in the corporate environment all the time, and it really irritates me) - you see the  "but that's how we've always done it" kind, and the "lets try to figure out how to do it better" kind.  Your teacher sounds like the first kind, Bernhard and Chang are the second.

-Paul

[super_ardua]

I think he wants to improve everything equally by giving you a different set of pieces each week. 

Just trust him.  He seems to know what he is doing.

[Daniel_piano]

I wonder, despite it's proven uselessness, why do teachers still recommend?

I think that, despite our dislike, we should be fair with the old standard method that every teacher use
I do think that what Bernhard and Chang teach is superior but I don't think the other method is useless

I've come to this conclusion by observing my schoolmates
We've just 10 years to get a Diploma, no more and no less, and if you miss an exam you're out of the school!
So, if the method is useless how all students at my school that use it have learned how to play the piano and how to play it well?
They're not genius, believe me
They're normal people using standard methods like hands together,  increasing the metronome notch by notch, repeating the whole piece endlessly, no practicing with different rythm and so on
Yet, they eventually learned how to play piano and beautifully I add

My conclusion is that both method works (Hanon included) just that one is way faster than the other
If you use the standard method, making a lot of mistakes and always having to relearn a lot of thing and waste a lot of time you eventually learn how to play the piano but it requires you 10 years
On the other hand by using a different more practical method, without Hanon, with more awareness and more pieces than studies you can learn the same thing in half the time

So, this is the difference
I don't think we can really say that the standard method doesn't work as  this is clearly not true
But clearly the standar method is slow, slow and slow
They designed 10 years to learn how to play the piano because of the standard method, probably 5 years are enough to get a diploma with Bernhard method

So that's why teacher keep using Hanon
Because they see results !! Just it takes them a lot to see them !!
On the other hand they don't see it that way because the whole school system is designed to justify their taking a lot to learn basilar things

Down with the school system !!!

Daniel

[timothy42b]

When I read Chang and Bernhard, they make a lot of sense to me.

But put yourself in the place of the teacher.  Teachers, like scientists, tend to be conservative about new theories.  This is a good thing, because experience shows 99% of new ideas are crackpot ideas.  The few good ones will hold up over time and be accepted, but they have to fight their way through, and some will end up rejected.  Too bad, but really it is an efficient system. 

If I were a teacher who'd been turning out successful students for a few decades, and I suddenly had a youngster tell me I'm all wrong because of something he'd read on the Internet, I'd be similarly slow to abandon the tried and true for the new. 

I had a martial arts teacher many decades ago say, "yuh can't tell 'em.  Yuh gotta show 'em." 

[Stolzing]

His students have smoked competitions and exams, and many have gotten into universities and gone on to becoming concert pianists elsewhere.

So how bad could he be?  How do you know he hasnt tried or researched not using Hanon and found it not to be successful?  And did you ever consider Bernhard and Chang could be wrong?  I think with piano playing, there are so many variables there's no way to be 100% certain which method is better.  You can't compare 10 students who use Hanon and 10 who don't and decide which group is better off since there are too many outside factors that would affect the results.

In my opinion you have 3 options:
1. Find a new teacher
2. Convince the teacher to stop using Hanon
3. Go along with teacher but do your own thing on the side.

I think the wrong thing to do is go against the teacher and not do what he says, since youre just going to come off as a snot nose, and he's going to get frustrated with you, and it's somewhat disrespectful.

[Mycroft]

"I think the wrong thing to do is go against the teacher and not do what he says"

I agree 100%.  Worse is doing the passive aggressive thing.  i.e. pretend that you're going to do what he asks and then "accidentally" forget to practice the things you don't agree with.  You're wasting both yours and the teacher's instruction time.

If you don't agree with what the teacher is requiring, then first explain why you don't agree with it and they'll either agree to modify the structure or they'll insist on their way.  If they insist, then your decision is to either do it wholeheartedly the teacher's way or find another teacher. IMHO

Best of course is to discuss all this before hiring the teacher in the first place.

[Sketchee]

I think people covered most of what I would say.  Hanon can be useful and it works for some people; even crazier some people like it.

My teacher actually said I should try Hanon and Czerny.  When I started with him I already had learned on my own some Chopin and Liszt and by this time I had already performed a piece he assigned me (the Maiden's Wish transcription I learned to love).  I did try them and I didn't like Hanon, Czerny was a bit better but didn't like it.  I told him so kindly.  Then he suggested I try scales instead we discussed it and scales didn't really encourage me to practice much.  He gave me a Beethoven Sonata and similar technique  to the excercises with a lot of scales in it (Op 14 No 1).  That was much better for me.  Since then I can't recall ever having a problem and I trust my teacher a lot more than I used to. Over time he's learned to know what I like and what works for both of us.  He suggested Un Sospiro long before I actually ended up learning it, because I was skeptical that I'd ever like the piece or had the technique.  Now I wished I learned it sooner.    It takes time for a teacher to adapt their methods for each student and a good teacher will be able to do this.

While most of us here like musicality as number one, some people do learn piano on a technical level better and so Hanon can work for them.  No, you're not going to read the somewhat archaic Preface written by Hanon and go through all the excercises amazingly and then be a virtuoso, but a good teacher can hear things in Hanon that they can listen for in your pieces.  We know that technique learned in one piece can improve things in other pieces.  It's true of excercises as well.  Bernard and C.C.'s method in a way just turns the music into the excercise piece by piece.

Also, I think it's good that your teacher would listen through your whole piece so that they can tell how far you are in it.  If you tell your teacher "I haven't practiced much with it", that doesn't tell them much.  They can listen to where you are now and then compare that with later so that they can see your progress.  In art (I'm an art major) we're taught to work the whole composition; it applies somewhat to music. While you definitely should working on little pieces in practice, you should keep in mind the full scope of the piece.  I did have lessons with my teacher working on small sections with the instruction 'This is how your should practice', still there are other days when we go through the whole piece without those kind of stops.  Sometimes I think I'm going to be playing it right through the end, he stops me and we do the practice routine.  That kind of variety in lesson suits me and it's the kind of variety mimiced in my practice.

That's basically redundant of what others said but applied to my experiences.  Hope it helps some.

[Sketchee]

Another thing (how could I possibly have more to say!),  at the time I mentioned above I went online and asked people what I should do; people told me if I didn't like my teacher to just get a new one.  Now I'm glad I didn't since I've progressed so much.  I knew his other students were good which is why I stuck with him.

It might help if possible if you can meet your teachers other students and see what they think.

[piano_learner]

Because Chang and Bernhard are forward thinkers and refuse to accept the worth of something blindly. Bernhard and Chang didn't invent this stuff, and  neither did your teacher. You'll find anywhere in life that there are generally two kinds of people (and I see this in the corporate environment all the time, and it really irritates me) - you see the  "but that's how we've always done it" kind, and the "lets try to figure out how to do it better" kind.  Your teacher sounds like the first kind, Bernhard and Chang are the second.

-Paul

You might like this. (You may have seen it before but I think it suits this thread)

Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a
 banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long,
 a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana.

 As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with
 cold water. After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the
 same result, all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water.

 Pretty soon, when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other
 monkeys will try to prevent it. Now, put away the cold water. Remove
 one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey
 sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror,
 all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack,
 he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.
 
 Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a
 new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous
 newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm!
 
 Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth,
 then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is
 attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they
 were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in
 the beating of the newest monkey.
 
 After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys
 have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again
 approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as
 they know that's the way it's always been done around here.

 And that's how company  policy begins...

Or Piano teaching methods?

[rohansahai]

i think we should make our own exercises depending on the particular piece or passage we are having trouble at. for instance, if its a long stretch or something, make an arpeggio out of it and practice it ! just an exercise in the context of the piece u are working on usually turns out to be very effective and doesen't take any time!

[BoliverAllmon]

Hanon doesn't take forever to get results. I have been doing Hanon for just a  couple of weeks now, and i have seen tons of improvement in speed, clarity, precision of striking, strength, and stamina in playing.

boliver

[super_ardua]

Just listen to your teacher.  It is evident he knows what is doing.

[gyzzzmo]

And perhaps another "good" thing about Hanon is that because you can turn your brain off, you can sit there for hours and hours thereby increasing your stamina to put up with lousy people in general. 

To my opinion the Hanon excersies shouldn't be brainless.
It increases stamina yes, but its also important you do concentrate on what you're playing, so that you train your brains to control every kind of vinger movement.

Gyzzzmo

[johnnypiano]

Hanon IS a funny joke!

[Piazzo22]

Hanon IS a funny joke!

Yes!! scales and arpeggios too!!! And pushing with our fingers those keys!!! it´s so stupid, why don´t we play the piano in our minds?!   

[johnnypiano]

Hey!  I like you - such harmony between two people in the middle of the night! 

If we used our brains and our imaginations fully to develop our technique and our artistic flair, people wouldn't be harping on about Hanon all the time.  They would be seeking more interesting, more fun ways of learning, and more profitable ways too.