Rubato

[johannesbrahms]

Does anyone else here dislike rubato?  I really do not like playing with rubato, unless it is notated in the score.  I don't mind it if it is notated in the score, but otherwise, I don't like it and I don't use it.  Does anyone else feel the same way?

[iansinclair]

Since it is a matter of interpretation and style, my own opinion would be that it would be unwise -- at best -- to come out firmly either for or against it.  Neither it -- nor, for that matter, reliable tempo markings -- are present explicitly in most of the romantic works I play (mostly Chopin and Schubert, some later) but they would be dry as dust if played in strict time.  In my other life, as an organist, I was known to use some variation in tempo -- sometimes quite considerable variation -- in Baroque works, where it seemed to me to be appropriate.

One can surely argue with my artistic decisions on the grounds that you don't care for them!

[awesom_o]

Rubato is never notated in the score. It is much easier to understand what rubato ISN'T than to understand what it actually is.

Proper understanding of what it is takes many years to develop.

It's impossible not to like good rubato.

[faulty_damper]

Rubata is NOT some kind of musical theoretical technique.  Rubato is the word that describes a certain musical feeling brought about by the change in tempo.  In other words, rubato has musical meaning.

Not everyone has a good sense of musical meaning, thus, they don't know how to use rubato.  Think of the 19th century excessive use of rubato... WAY too much for decent taste.

[mikeowski]

It only annoys me when overused. But it can be an extremly powerful tool when done right.
Exhibit A:

Starting at around 4:48, he's using a lot of rubato. But, in my opinion, it works fantastically in this section and really makes it shine. Without that, it can sound completely boring, like in
Exhibit B:

Section starts at about 4:49. Yawn!

[faulty_damper]

I think Gould is over-doing it.  He captures the emotional character, but exaggerates it too much, especially with the ritardandi when he should be speeding up a bit.  The other guy, just doesn't hear it so he rushes through like it's not there.  Coupled with poor articulation and it completely conveys a different tone of the music.

[mikeowski]

Well, it's certainly a question of taste. I wouldn't use quite as much rubato myself, but I think it shows what a difference it can make, between an intense climax of a whole movement and just another string of notes.

[johannesbrahms]

Since it is a matter of interpretation and style, my own opinion would be that it would be unwise -- at best -- to come out firmly either for or against it.  Neither it -- nor, for that matter, reliable tempo markings -- are present explicitly in most of the romantic works I play (mostly Chopin and Schubert, some later) but they would be dry as dust if played in strict time.  In my other life, as an organist, I was known to use some variation in tempo -- sometimes quite considerable variation -- in Baroque works, where it seemed to me to be appropriate.

One can surely argue with my artistic decisions on the grounds that you don't care for them!

Why would Chopin sound as dry as dust in strict time?  Personally, I think his works benefit from a steady pulse.  It is really just my opinion, but I respond to music better when there is a steady rhythm.  When rubato is used, I have trouble getting a sense of the rhythm, and the music consequently sounds disorganized.

[iansinclair]

Why would Chopin sound as dry as dust in strict time?  Personally, I think his works benefit from a steady pulse.  It is really just my opinion, but I respond to music better when there is a steady rhythm.  When rubato is used, I have trouble getting a sense of the rhythm, and the music consequently sounds disorganized.

One can always try it, and I've heard some people try.  It is not to my taste; too mechanical.  That said, rubato -- that slight bend in the pulse -- can be overdone, and I've heard that, too (sadly).  If one truly feels the music, however, I would contend that it will be there and feel right.  Rather hard to explain...

[j_menz]

I respond to music better when there is a steady rhythm.  When rubato is used, I have trouble getting a sense of the rhythm, and the music consequently sounds disorganized.

Then might I suggest your sense of rhythm needs developing? Try some jazz arrangements, you may be surprised how useful they are and then you may start to see the uses to which rubato can be put.

[awesom_o]

Why would Chopin sound as dry as dust in strict time?  Personally, I think his works benefit from a steady pulse.  It is really just my opinion, but I respond to music better when there is a steady rhythm.  When rubato is used, I have trouble getting a sense of the rhythm, and the music consequently sounds disorganized.

Good rubato means that the rhythm is good, and the pulse is stable. If your 'rubato' is disturbing the pulse or the rhythm, then you aren't really doing rubato at all.

[johannesbrahms]

Actually, my sense of rhythm is quite good.  I just like music better when the tempo stays the same.  I am changing my view, however slowly, and just today I have started to see the good side of rubato.  I listened to Alfred Cortot playing Chopin, and I feel motivated to try playing with rubato now.  I think the whole problem may have been that up to now, the only rubato I heard was bad.  So, thanks everybody for responding!

By the way, about the jazz arrangements, I am actually a stride pianist who absolutely loves jazz.

[j_menz]

By the way, about the jazz arrangements, I am actually a stride pianist who absolutely loves jazz.

Then try thinking about rubato as playing the melody with the beat rather than on the beat. Still in rhythm, but with that more flexible approach. Strictly, it means "borrowed time", so it needs to be paid back to keep it on track - maybe the rubato you don't like is one that just keeps borrowing.

[timothy42b]

Good rubato means that the rhythm is good, and the pulse is stable. If your 'rubato' is disturbing the pulse or the rhythm, then you aren't really doing rubato at all.

When I listen to rubato, if I've noticed it, then probably the person playing is disturbing the pulse.  They think they are doing rubato but they aren't.

For most people rubato means slow down for the hard parts, speed up for the easy parts, slow down again when it gets soft, speed up when it gets loud.  If they have a sense of pulse at all - sometimes it's absent.

I believe you must develop the ability to play in strict time before adding rubato, or it isn't really under your control. 

[iansinclair]

When I listen to rubato, if I've noticed it, then probably the person playing is disturbing the pulse.  They think they are doing rubato but they aren't.

For most people rubato means slow down for the hard parts, speed up for the easy parts, slow down again when it gets soft, speed up when it gets loud.  If they have a sense of pulse at all - sometimes it's absent.

I believe you must develop the ability to play in strict time before adding rubato, or it isn't really under your control. 

Oh how true.  And sadly true.  I think that it is particularly true that some performers have no sense of the underlying pulse -- and as was noted, the pulse -- the flow of the piece -- has to keep going (otherwise it's an accelerando or ritardando, which are completely different things!).  j_menz refers to playing with the beat, a good description; I referred to bending the beat -- and I really meant the same thing.  But I quite agree you must be able to play the piece in strict time first.  Then you can start to bend it, as your interpretation inspires you.

[awesom_o]

When I listen to rubato, if I've noticed it, then probably the person playing is disturbing the pulse.  They think they are doing rubato but they aren't.

For most people rubato means slow down for the hard parts, speed up for the easy parts, slow down again when it gets soft, speed up when it gets loud.  If they have a sense of pulse at all - sometimes it's absent.

I believe you must develop the ability to play in strict time before adding rubato, or it isn't really under your control. 

Absolutely correct. I've noticed this even in big-name recordings of standard repertoire. Lang Lang has a particular tendency toward this type of 'rubato'.  Chopin had quite a big thing against it, however. So did Liszt.

[pianoplunker]

Does anyone else here dislike rubato?  I really do not like playing with rubato, unless it is notated in the score.  I don't mind it if it is notated in the score, but otherwise, I don't like it and I don't use it.  Does anyone else feel the same way?

No, I think Rubato is one opportunity to make an interpretation original. It is not everything, and it certainly should not be overdone but it can really add something when done well. I dont think I have ever listened to someone and thought "wow what a great Rubato". But it might be the part of an overall great performance or interpretation of which I said "wow".

[pochofiev]

I think that its okay to add rubato that's not written, but one must always take into account a sense of balance so as to not overdo it.

The safest option of course, is to just play absolutely what's written, with nothing more and nothing less. However, that would make less room for fresh interpretation.

[myhandssing]

My feelings on the topic of rubato, which means to steal time and as awsom mentioned, you must give back that time, it is the yin and yang of rhythm, give and take, allargando and rubato...
I have found that when I play with no rubato people will say, you play too metronomically!
If I play with too much rubato people say, your rhythm is all over the place!
So my answer to this problem is to use rubato, but use it very subtly, and only lavishly when needed occasionally, if the rubato is there, but so subtle that most of the audience cannot detect it, then I feel that is ideal.
Maybe I am wrong there but I find it works for me.

In order to execute a quality rubato, one must really understand the phrasing.
You need to know where the cadential point is towards the end of the phrase, and you need to know on which exact note the cadence culminates and achieve's it's new home point. You may call that point the climax of the phrase.
You need to understand where the phrase is starting to move away from it's original home, where it is starting to develop, now that is not so much a precise point usually, but there is a main area that is obvious.

The idea is, no matter what you do, I would start the phrase strictly in time and would not start bending the pulse until the phrase starts to develop (that being said, sometimes the start of the phrase indicated in the score is truly the ending of the previous phrase), and I would make sure that I return to my original pulse by that definate point in the phrase I call the climax of the phrase, it is because of your ability to return to this original pulse at this definate moment, that you may be able to bend the time prior to that point. (it is like throwing and catching a ball)

There are two basic ways in which one may bend the pulse:
1. one may use "giving time" followed by "stealing time" until you reach the climax of the phrase in which you must return to the original pulse.
2. on may use "stealing time" followed by "giving time" until you reach the climax and return to strict pulse.

There are situations where I will use the following two ideas:
3. "giving time" followed by "stealing time" followed by "stealing time" followed by "giving time" and then a return to the pulse.
4. "stealing time" followed by "giving time" followed by "giving time" followed by " stealing time" and then a strict return to the original pulse.

I don't have time to describe exactly where to use these above four ideas, but generally they are tools to try and show the truly beautiful parts of the phrase try and to give time to emphasize something imporant and take time from those parts of the phrase that are of less importance, the main thing is you can give time to longer notes, to special harmonies, to grace notes, rests, silence, arpegiated notes, anything new or special in the score such as a special shift in harmony, long notes. Sometimes people just go with: make the longer notes longer and the shorter notes shorter and that works too so long as you understand that you need to swing the phrase back to the original pulse at the climax of the phrase, which is the most important note in any phrase, and can be emphasized even if it is marked ppp, emphasized by coming out of the rubato into strict pulse.

That being said one cannot calculate a rubato, it must be natural, what I am offering here is just a map, showing you what type of rubato you can use and when to use it, but the rubato itself must be completely natural and not calculated or it will not work.

If you want more information I suggest you go directly to Cortot and Rachmaninoff and listen to their recordings and analyze the way they do things.

[myhandssing]

Also one must know when not to use rubato, such as if the music is that of a march, or if the music is to flow and is generally fast and light...

[joon]

OP I challenge you to learn First Arabesque, Debussy.  It is impossible to play well without a great sense of rubato.  Playing this song mechanical (exactly on tempo) is the worst thing ever.

[rmbarbosa]

According Newhaus, when we take something to someone then we must restore...
This is the "soul" of rubatto. We take... we restore. Allways keeping the pulse.

[anima55]

According Newhaus, when we take something to someone then we must restore...
This is the "soul" of rubatto. We take... we restore. Allways keeping the pulse.

I agree.  For me, rubato is the subtle movement in the phrasing of musical sentences, and I liken this movement to the occasional gust of wind blowing through the trees, or the movement of waves in the sea, or the waves coming into the seashore and drawing back out.  I also think of the way gravity works, such as the way an object would slowly ascend, to then topple over a hilltop and gain momentum as it descends.  The laws of nature are the perfect way to describe the movement in a musical phrase.

[chicoscalco]

I agree.  For me, rubato is the subtle movement in the phrasing of musical sentences, and I liken this movement to the occasional gust of wind blowing through the trees, or the movement of waves in the sea, or the waves coming into the seashore and drawing back out.  I also think of the way gravity works, such as the way an object would slowly ascend, to then topple over a hilltop and gain momentum as it descends.  The laws of nature are the perfect way to describe the movement in a musical phrase.

Lovely description of rubato!