What is having relative pitch really like?

[fluxit]

There are so many people out there with a billion different levels of relative pitch, some are supposedly masters, some can only recognize some intervals and arpeggios, and some struggle with the difference between major thirds and minor thirds.

Do people ever finish ear training? as students we get this power-hungry idea in our heads that if we practice every day for 4 years we will be able to recognize every chord progression possible, and every crazy arpeggio atonal melody, we will have amazing workflow because of it, and infinite inspiration as well.  Anyone who reaches it is like a god in my mind, a completely enlightened soul, i want it so bad!

however,
I've been banging my head against the wall with this stuff for 2 years, i don't think the mastery i envisioned for myself will be possible in one lifetime, i sing 45-60 minutes a day and still have yet to recognize anything from a song on the radio or something practical like that.

-Is it actually actually possible for older people to learn relative pitch in 4 years of 60 minutes a day? has anyone met one?
- Is the best way to achieve this still by singing intervals and chords? I use this thing as an outline https://www.perfectpitch.com/relativepitch.htm, but its sketchy because they also sell a "perfect pitch course" which is a complete scam because its impossible.

Thanks for any advice!

[pianoplunker]

There are so many people out there with a billion different levels of relative pitch, some are supposedly masters, some can only recognize some intervals and arpeggios, and some struggle with the difference between major thirds and minor thirds.

Do people ever finish ear training? as students we get this power-hungry idea in our heads that if we practice every day for 4 years we will be able to recognize every chord progression possible, and every crazy arpeggio atonal melody, we will have amazing workflow because of it, and infinite inspiration as well.  Anyone who reaches it is like a god in my mind, a completely enlightened soul, i want it so bad!

however,
I've been banging my head against the wall with this stuff for 2 years, i don't think the mastery i envisioned for myself will be possible in one lifetime, i sing 45-60 minutes a day and still have yet to recognize anything from a song on the radio or something practical like that.

-Is it actually actually possible for older people to learn relative pitch in 4 years of 60 minutes a day? has anyone met one?
- Is the best way to achieve this still by singing intervals and chords? I use this thing as an outline https://www.perfectpitch.com/relativepitch.htm, but its sketchy because they also sell a "perfect pitch course" which is a complete scam because its impossible.

Thanks for any advice!

I have pretty good relative pitch. That means I may not know the precise note at first most of the time, but I am pretty good at knowing what chords the notes belong to and the progression that is happening -most- of the time. That has been  from LISTENING to music, learning by EAR, and analyzing the chord progressions. Understanding the circles of 4ths/5ths goes along with it as well. I think every famous piece of music has I, IV, V  and then a section which goes around the circle partly.  But that has always just been a part of playing and enjoying music. The only time I have ever spent on ear training was to learn songs off the radio so I would not have to buy sheet music.  AS long as you keep truly listening you will never finish ear training or get worse at it. Maybe listening to some simply simple music is where you should start. For example , many Motown songs from the 1960's use only two chords - I and IV .  But I am not practicing any of it just for the sake of saying I have relative pitch. It is always for purpose of learning music, so I can play it. I can tell you it requires some practice but I have never spent 60 min a day or anything like that. Be patient and keep singing !

[Bob]

You can hear the color of each step of the scale.  Instead of the note having it's own color, you're hearing the color of that note in relation to the key it's in.

No, I wouldn't spend a lot of time on David Burge's stuff there.  He spends a lot of time on intervals.  (Do-Sol!  Perfect fifth!)  You want the key.  Establish the key (V I).  Match pitch on notes.  Get an Ear Training 101 book.  Learn some simple songs in solfege that use 123 or 12345 scale degrees.  Then 5671.   Then triads.  You'll hear the color of the pitches that way.  

Or take an ear training course or get some ear training lessons with someone.

Work on singing it, sight-singing, and dictation, writing down what you hear.

60 min/day for four years will give you awesome relative pitch skills.  That's probably more than a lot of music majors are putting in for ear training.

[alessandro]

If you interested in - I don't like the word "perfect", I prefer the also commonly used - "absolute" pitch, than I can recommend you the book "L'oreille musicienne", by Claude-Henri Chouard, editor Gallimard.  

In short, cause I'm not an expert in the matter, your two questions...

Yes.  I think one can learn absolute pitch.   The an hour a day/4 years, sounds a bit silly and probably way to little.  I frankly think that this kind of study can easily become some kind of madness.   And by the way, how old are you    Cause one of the things concerning "absolute pitch" is that you shouldn't hope for too much if your plus 60-something.  It is for a big deal a physical thing, the chemical, almost muscular structure of the hair cells in the ear.  If that would be your "ideal", your goal, the fact that also some genetic aspect is involved shouldn't scare you off, but... WHY would you absolutely want this absolute pitch that much ! Do you know that some older people with absolute pitch suffer a lot, just because of this pitch.   To the point, it's cruel but I have to mention it, that just listening to music becomes hardly bearable.   Please, keep this also in mind.

For the rest, good luck, I think if your not 'old', that it is possible.  And singing (among every other musical activity) appears to be a good way in helping you to aim for this goal.

But really, try to read the book.   It is sometimes way to scientific for me, but if your interested, and you sound like being, wonderful book.

La-di-daah      

[pianoplunker]

If you interested in - I don't like the word "perfect", I prefer the also commonly used - "absolute" pitch, than I can recommend you the book "L'oreille musicienne", by Claude-Henri Chouard, editor Gallimard.  

In short, cause I'm not an expert in the matter, your two questions...

Yes.  I think one can learn absolute pitch.   The an hour a day/4 years, sounds a bit silly and probably way to little.  I frankly think that this kind of study can easily become some kind of madness.   And by the way, how old are you    Cause one of the things concerning "absolute pitch" is that you shouldn't hope for too much if your plus 60-something.  It is for a big deal a physical thing, the chemical, almost muscular structure of the hair cells in the ear.  If that would be your "ideal", your goal, the fact that also some genetic aspect is involved shouldn't scare you off, but... WHY would you absolutely want this absolute pitch that much ! Do you know that some older people with absolute pitch suffer a lot, just because of this pitch.   To the point, it's cruel but I have to mention it, that just listening to music becomes hardly bearable.   Please, keep this also in mind.

For the rest, good luck, I think if your not 'old', that it is possible.  And singing (among every other musical activity) appears to be a good way in helping you to aim for this goal.

But really, try to read the book.   It is sometimes way to scientific for me, but if your interested, and you sound like being, wonderful book.

La-di-daah      

I know someone who has absolute pitch and he made a statement that my digital keyboard plays slightly flat . Incredibly he is right, although nobody else in the room can hear it, including me, when I put a guitar tuner and another tuner app on my iphone against the keyboard,  sure enough it actually is slightly flat. Too bad I cant hire a tuner for that one. When someone says digitals never go out of tune, not always true. Depends on how the keybed and sensors are laid out electromechanically
.

[timothy42b]

, when I put a guitar tuner and another tuner app on my iphone against the keyboard,  sure enough it actually is slightly flat. Too bad I cant hire a tuner for that one.

My Casios have an adjustment for that.  You might check the manual. 

[perfect_pitch]

I'll tell you what it's like... although I know someone doesn't like the term 'perfect' pitch.

It's like having the ability to see music... I know that sounds weird, but knowing that I can listen to any piece of music and instantaneously knowing the chord progressions, notes, & harmonies allows me to understand music in a way very few can.

To me, I can only presume that it's the difference between a short-sighted colour-blind pedestrian and someone with 20/20 vision. When other people hear music - they hear sounds and the know when it's pleasing or when it's dissonant, but they don't know the complete and total intricacies of what they are listening to. They have a vague sense of what they are hearing.

As I said, I can only presume it's like that - and I say that because I know the difference between perfect vision and having to rely on glasses.

[pianoplunker]

My Casios have an adjustment for that.  You might check the manual. 

The problem with the keyboard I was using is that the keys strike one long rubber strip that has the contacts to the notes. When it is contacted by a key, it bends enough so the contact next to the note being played actually plays ever so slightly. In other words I am also really playing the flat or sharp note next to the keys I am intending to play. My adjustment indicates A 440 so
I dont know which way to go with that. I never did like the piano sound on that one, now I know why thanks to someone with perfect pitch

[pianoplunker]

I'll tell you what it's like... although I know someone doesn't like the term 'perfect' pitch.

It's like having the ability to see music... I know that sounds weird, but knowing that I can listen to any piece of music and instantaneously knowing the chord progressions, notes, & harmonies allows me to understand music in a way very few can.

To me, I can only presume that it's the difference between a short-sighted colour-blind pedestrian and someone with 20/20 vision. When other people hear music - they hear sounds and the know when it's pleasing or when it's dissonant, but they don't know the complete and total intricacies of what they are listening to. They have a vague sense of what they are hearing.

As I said, I can only presume it's like that - and I say that because I know the difference between perfect vision and having to rely on glasses.

All the attributes you mention about hearing a song and knowing the chords etc. can all be learned without perfect pitch. surely if one  has not studied harmonies how would one actually know what they are listening to ?  I dont have perfect pitch, but you could be right about the clear vision analogy. PS: I see you are working on Russian Rag, I played that before it is fun. Rachmaninoff meets Joplin

[falala]

The OP wasn't asking about having or acquiring perfect pitch. He was asking about acquiring good relative pitch.

[falala]

It's hard to judge the efficacy of your ear training regime without knowing more about where it fits into your musical life as a whole.

I have pretty good relative pitch. I can hear a tonal tune and write it down if it's not too complicated, or play it by ear on the piano. I can tell basic information about scales and modes when I'm listening to music, and pick out and follow chord progressions. I can work out the chords to most simple pop songs in a few listenings.

This is actually one area of my musicianship that I think has got better with age and time - in that I can do all those things better now than I could when I was fresh out of music college. Thing is though it's hard to separate ear training from everything else. I've been full time between playing, composing, arranging and teaching all my life, so I suppose I've basically spent ALL DAY, EVERY DAY using my ears and working out what they're telling me. I can't really tell where the ear training stops and the knowledge of harmony, improvising, personal experimentation at the piano etc. begins. Once you finish college with its artificial subject logic, it's all just "music".

I'm not sure how sitting down to just "train one's ear" for a certain amount of time each day would work, outside of the context of what one does with that training. Can you tell us more about what instrument you play, what kinds of music you play etc?

[timothy42b]

I'm not sure how sitting down to just "train one's ear" for a certain amount of time each day would work, outside of the context of what one does with that training. Can you tell us more about what instrument you play, what kinds of music you play etc?

I am also skeptical about the value of training outside of context.  It does not work well for me, even though it's the accepted process when you're in school.

This Sunday I had a difficult interval to sing in the choir anthem.  It was an ascending major seventh, from G (bottom line of bass clef) up to F#.  It didn't fit the chord and I couldn't find it in the tonality, but it needed to be nailed because the rest of the musical line all started from that note.  I should be able to sing a M7 but yesterday I couldn't.  (wrong notes sung loudly into my ear have something to do with that.  Adults do NOT learn to read music if they've not been exposed as a child; singers who do not play an instrument also do NOT read.  However this does not affect their confidence level a bit.) 

At any rate, I was missing some of the contextual cues that would normally help.  I couldn't pick it out of the chord, I couldn't hear the interval directly, I couldn't measure off the tenor because they were wrong. 

So I sang an F# in isolation.  I pictured a trombone in my hands with the slide in 5th position, and just reached for the note.  I've played that note 100s of thousands of times, and I know what it sounds like.  This method worked fine.   

[scottedwards]

I just came across this thread and thought I'd throw my 2 cents in, even though it's a few months old, as I teach ear training for a living and I think I can be of some help!

Fluxit, it is definitely achievable to develop a very good sense of relative pitch in well under 4 years, with less than 60 minutes a day, regardless of age. I've worked with plenty of older students who have made great progress, so I think it's always achievable.

Maybe an important point to make is that, as you suggested, ear training (for most of us at least), never really ends. Your aural skills can always get better, so you can recognise and play faster/more complex music. Learning to play atonal music or very fast/complex tonal music by ear within 4 years would be a huge feat. But learning to play most tonal music is definitely doable.

It looks as though the source of your problems is related to the approach you've been using (which is the same problem that most people have with ear training). Bob has hit the nail on the head. Using a tonality based approach that focuses on using scale degrees or solfege is much more effective than focusing on intervals. The tonic is a stable reference point that you can use to recognise any note or chord you hear. Intervals on their own don't give you enough information.

If you start focusing on learning to recognise and sing scale degrees/solfege, you'll see noticeable improvement quite quickly.

Regarding some of the comments about focused ear training vs incorporating it into other practice, I think they both have their place. Once your aural skills reach a certain level, you start to train your ears naturally whenever you play or listen to music, because you can keep up. Before that point (and after it as well for certain things) it can be useful to do some focused ear training, so you can slow things down and give your ears a chance to hear and work out the individual sounds that you're learning to recognise. Having said that, putting it in context and trying to work things out by ear is absolutely essential, and probably the most important part of training your ears.

I hope that helps a couple of people! If anyone's interested in more info about ear training you can check out my site: https://www.eartraininghq.com (I hope no one minds a small plug  )