Progression 14 months, adult beginner

[ranniks]

How am I sounding?

[hfmadopter]

Tempo and rhythm issues persist. You have a more finished sound to the notes than a year ago but these issues are ever present. You must get a handle on that and your music will start to sound nice ( I mean that, nice when it's in meter and rhythm). You obviously have passion for the pieces you are working on, I can hear that part but it gets lost with the other issues.

I'm not a fan of the metronome but you may need to work with one for a while till you get this nailed down ( I sometimes use one in the rough spots now that I have it included in my digital piano. Lost the other one someplace through the years !). I think I said it before but I think you should put Fur Elise aside for a while. Bring it back after you work out some ground base issues in your playing. If you add a metronome, don't use it so much for playing a piece but working on the rhythmic patterns. You can probably read up on this as a kind of study in itself.

One day this is all going to come together and you will know how to work with tempo smoothness/evenness and rhythm so that you can work it out at least. At this point you have to do more than hear your music because you don't seem to be hearing whats happening. And if you are counting then you aren't doing so evenly. Thus add the mechanical device in this case and when you are out of time it's not the device but your playing that is incorrect.

It sounds like you may get along with Mozart, have you tried any Clemente ?

[ranniks]

Tempo and rhythm issues persist. You have a more finished sound to the notes than a year ago but these issues are ever present. You must get a handle on that and your music will start to sound nice ( I mean that, nice when it's in meter and rhythm). You obviously have passion for the pieces you are working on, I can hear that part but it gets lost with the other issues.

I'm not a fan of the metronome but you may need to work with one for a while till you get this nailed down ( I sometimes use one in the rough spots now that I have it included in my digital piano. Lost the other one someplace through the years !). I think I said it before but I think you should put Fur Elise aside for a while. Bring it back after you work out some ground base issues in your playing. If you add a metronome, don't use it so much for playing a piece but working on the rhythmic patterns. You can probably read up on this as a kind of study in itself.

One day this is all going to come together and you will know how to work with tempo smoothness/evenness and rhythm so that you can work it out at least. At this point you have to do more than hear your music because you don't seem to be hearing whats happening. And if you are counting then you aren't doing so evenly. Thus add the mechanical device in this case and when you are out of time it's not the device but your playing that is incorrect.

It sounds like you may get along with Mozart, have you tried any Clemente ?

Thanks David!

The tempo/rhytm thing. Can't I just accept that tempo/rhytm isn't for me? I'm not a fan of the metronome either. The Mozart piece is something that I love. I have tried clemente in the past, but not finished one.

Currently I'm working on bwv 935 and maybe that's a good exercise for tempo and rhytm considering the points at which the left and right hand lock with each other?

It's frustrating because I love playing the piano, but the tempo is the down factor. The thing is, when I play it doesn't sound horrible to me, but it could sound that much better with a correct tempo.

Isn't it useless to try to apply new tempo rules to the pieces that I can already play? I'm saying that because these pieces I've already memorised in my hands and it would be that more difficult to unlearn them. Or should I just do it?

The way I play the schumann is rubatto according to my current piano teacher.

Hmmm, what to do what to do.

[hfmadopter]

Didn't know you had a new teacher. Had I known that I'd simply say to listen to that persons opinion! Meanwhile, you can't seriously be considering not correcting your current music if to go on playing it. You're not getting the message, its wrong. The problems are core problems to your music that you need to correct for old and new pieces alike. Maybe someone will pop in here and drive this home better than I am. But just don't give up you can fix this.

[outin]

The tempo/rhytm thing. Can't I just accept that tempo/rhytm isn't for me?  

NO!  

These issues will keep ruining your otherwise nice performances unless you really tackle them. If you want to play classical you need to learn to follow the score and rhythm and tempo is an important part of the score.

It's frustrating because I love playing the piano, but the tempo is the down factor. The thing is, when I play it doesn't sound horrible to me, but it could sound that much better with a correct tempo.

Isn't it useless to try to apply new tempo rules to the pieces that I can already play? I'm saying that because these pieces I've already memorised in my hands and it would be that more difficult to unlearn them. Or should I just do it?

The way I play the schumann is rubatto according to my current piano teacher.

Maybe your teacher did not want to discourage you, but rubato does not mean you can just mess up the rhythm. You must learn to play correctly first.

I agree that it is difficult to correct something learned wrong from the beginning. So I would drop these pieces now and only come back after you have fixed the issues in the way you learn your pieces and forgotten them a bit. I know it's frustrating, but that happens. I worked with a piece for 4 months almost daily trying to get it good enough before I just had to accept that I need to put it aside for now.

But if you still want to keep on playing these pieces you MUST correct them. You have worked hard and learned a lot and it would be a real waste if you don't learn to play with correct rhythm and consistent tempo.

You CAN fix the issues, but I think you need to accept that these pieces are too difficult for that. Why not pick up a selection of proggressive etudes like Burgmüller op 100 or Lemoine op 37 and start working through them correctly from the start with your teacher. They are short pieces and the notes are easy to learn so you could really concentrate on the issues that need fixing. They will also present you with so many technical and musical challenges that you will learn a lot. If you can work through either book satisfactory, you'll be much more accomplished than if you can sort of play through harder pieces.

I think it would also be good for you to learn some easy pieces from the score now without listening to other playing them, because then it might be a bit easier not to rush the learning process. You really need to analyze every measure, both the notes and the rhythm, figure out yourself how it should sound.

Most of us have something that is really hard for us, but since we are serious about the piano we just keep on battling them. You must do that too, because I know you can. You have just been too impatient which has lead to a certain amount of sloppyness  

[hfmadopter]

The tempo/rhytm thing. Can't I just accept that tempo/rhytm isn't for me?

Look, these are fundamental elements in every piece of music. Everyone has to bone up on it. To some it comes more naturally than to others but it must be done if you want to play well. It's not an optional fix. You've been somehow getting a pass on this for 14 months now by your teachers I guess.

These are root elements in your music, in all music, playing any instrument. And the thing is, it's fixable. I don't understand your attitude on this, it's like I'm going to go for a run now, get some exercise but today I'll wear one hard shoe and one sneaker, tomorrow a sock and no shoe on one foot and a rubber boot on the other. Well heck, I might as well go on and run a road race ! No we don't do that, if we go for a run we wear the proper footwear and if you don't have that you get it, certainly before the road race happens.. Well, when you play music you play it in rhythm and at reasonable tempo, if that isn't working out you fix it.

Rubato is not even in the picture I'm painting here.

[ranniks]

The naruto and fur elise I can understand that it sounds non-rhytmic/tempo, but the mozart and especially the schumann piece should be okay. I honestly didn't even bother to watch my tempo while playing this particular recording because I was having fun.

My previous teacher gave me a nod saying the schumann piece was done, he had no further comments about the rhytme. To let my current teacher know my level with the piano I showed him the schumann piece and he said 'it sounds rubato but tempo and rhytm are okay'.

I'm going to record the schumann piece again this time minding the tempo/rhytm.

Maybe it's my piano? The action is heavier, but still......

Surely if my tempo was that horrible my teachers would have warned me? I'm not even working on the elise pieces with my teacher, it's just my own product of practise. Same goes with the Naruto piece (my new teacher did have something to say about the tempo on this one though).

The Mozart piece was given an okay by my previous teacher as well, but he did say I couldn't play it perfectly with the tempo, so we stopped practising it. Maybe at that point I didn't have the skills, maybe I don't have it now.

Well, I know, to drive my point home I'll upload the current piece my new teacher and I are working on. I hope it will be enough to show that I have progressed these 14 months tempo/rhytm wise.

[outin]

Well, I know, to drive my point home I'll upload the current piece my new teacher and I are working on. I hope it will be enough to show that I have progressed these 14 months tempo/rhytm wise.

Don't get me wrong, of course you have progressed compared to what it was before! You just need to work on it a bit more before you can present these pieces so that a listener can really enjoy them. Mistakes happen and don't bother me much, but reoccuring inconsistencies in rhythm can be quite intolerable to listen to. The Mozart and Schumann sound really nice and correct for a while and then suddenly comes a weird acceleration or other rhythmic change that ruins the phrase and the flow of the whole piece.

Classical piano playing is about aiming for perfection, although never quite reaching it (at least for people on our level). That's why it is not acceptable to give up on something just because it requires some extra work. I think we both reacted strongly to you idea of "tempo/rhythm not being something for you". It's just as unaccpetable as you saying that playing the right notes is not for you...

Another thing is that recordings require a lot more precision than playing live on a lesson. I hate the way I play on my recordings, even though my teacher says something sounds fine (and usually does sound a lot better on her grand). But I also understand that what she actually means is that it is fine enough for now and she does not think it's worth for her to try to make it better at this time but would rather work on something else. I have not prepared any piece for performance with her, our goal is for me to learn to play well in general.

My guess is that you have not yet learned the most efficient way to work on new pieces and that is partly because you have not worked on a large amount of pieces on appropriate level for a beginner. To compare, during the past 2 years me and my teacher have worked on about 60 different pieces of many levels, not finished (playing in full tempo or memorized) them all, but at least I got the idea of how I must work on them if I choose to do that later. So now when I approach new pieces on my own I am able to do it better, taking into account more things from the score right from the start instead of just trying to learn the notes and imitate the way I've heard it played by someone else.

I'd be really happy to hear whatever you are working now with your new teacher!  

[hfmadopter]

Maybe it's my piano? The action is heavier, but still......

It's not your piano ( also as I have mentioned before I like the tone of that piano), you don't hear the problem is the issue.

I don't know if anyone else has listened to the recordings but both outin and I hear the problems. It doesn't mean you have not improved in 14 months, you have but there are some issues in these pieces, that's all ( In Schumann I hear two slow downs, I hear you diving into two spots that obviously you have a little trouble articulating and I hear you going out of rhythm all together at the end).. If we were all together at a workshop we could help you work them out. The main theme sounds fine and you obviously have a feel for the piece as that comes through. You asked and you got answers, what can I say. I don't know what you hear, I don't know what your teacher hears or what the motivation is to move you on, so reserve any further comment, except to say that sometimes teachers have a method to their madness .


It's all ok though, relax enjoy yourself and keep learning ! You will get there, you are getting there.

[ranniks]

Thanks Outin and David. You know, I'm really hard on myself. I'm sorry if I've offended either of you with my outburst, I didn't mean it like that at all if it sounded that way. I'm just a perfectionist and knowing how much time I've spent on the pieces, it's frustrating to hear it's still not good:(. But that's classical music I guess.

Outin, I'm gratefull that you are willing to listen to what I'm working with my new teacher. David, could you listen as well? I hold both your opinions in high regard.

I have 4 pieces: little prelude 3, grieg op 12 no 2, river flows in you by yiruma(works with new teacher) and an old prelude that I finished a year ago with my old teacher. There may be some note mistakes, but I've tried to be as rhytmic as possible.

The grieg piece needs some polishing in regards to the switch to pedalling, but that I will fix with hard work and practise.

I've literary re-recorded the little prelude 3 15 times before I was satisfied....I started out slow but couldn't keep that slow tempo throughout the piece, so I went up a notch to even it out, but I still don't seem to be able to keep the tempo of the first bar the same as the next 2.

Bach1406 = little prelude 3
Bach 1411 = other prelude (in c major I think)

[outin]

I have 4 pieces: little prelude 3, grieg op 12 no 2, river flows in you by yiruma(works with new teacher) and an old prelude that I finished a year ago with my old teacher. There may be some note mistakes, but I've tried to be as rhytmic as possible.

The grieg piece needs some polishing in regards to the switch to pedalling, but that I will fix with hard work and practise.

I've literary re-recorded the little prelude 3 15 times before I was satisfied....I started out slow but couldn't keep that slow tempo throughout the piece, so I went up a notch to even it out, but I still don't seem to be able to keep the tempo of the first bar the same as the next 2.

I did not listen to the river thing because I just cannot stand that type of music, sorry

The other pieces all need some work, but you've got many things right. The C-major prelude is very nice for the most parts, but there are still some problems. To actually polish the piece you should just analyze the spots that give you trouble and work on those measures. If you hear those parts yourself, you can just do it alone, but if not, then your teacher should help.

From the beginning of the other pieces it is clear now that you do understand the basic pulse and the rhythm of the pieces. From what you write I think there's now the problem of not knowing every part of the piece piece well enough, which you react to with tempo fluctuations. That is quite common, but it's not the right way. You need to adress that. Practice in small sections and practice the harder parts more. It is quite telling that you say you could not keep the tempo down. What you must do when you have trouble is slow down the whole piece and only speed up after you know every part well enough. But as you noticed it is sometimes difficult to slow down. That just means you don't know what you are doing and only go with finger memory. You need to force yourself to play in a slower tempo. One way to do this is with a metronome and the other one is by counting slower in your head while you play.

I know I am repeating myself, but I still think you should start working with some easier pieces with your new teacher. You are spending a lot of time polishing these pieces, which might be better spend in learning different basic skills. These pieces are usually not ones you would play after a year and there's a reason: They are not as easy as it would seem and it's better to get the basics together by playing something from earlier grades. It is fine to supplement with harder pieces you really like, but most of your material should be more simple after only 14 months IMO. There may be people on this forum that can do miracles with very short experience, but the fact is that most good pianists have spent their early years with simple and sometimes boring material. Most of us need that to learn how to learn and learn how to practice before advancing in our repertoire. The etudes I referred to in my earlier posts would be good for that. If you insist on Bach, why not work through the pieces from AMB notebook and other easier works. I have several editions of the First lesson in Bach book, I'll send you one if you want

Have you discussed your choice of pieces seriously with your new teacher and asked what he/she thinks would be suitable for you now? Does the teacher understand that you really want to learn to be a good pianist, not just play around with a few pieces?

[ranniks]

I did not listen to the river thing because I just cannot stand that type of music, sorry

The other pieces all need some work, but you've got many things right. The C-major prelude is very nice for the most parts, but there are still some problems. To actually polish the piece you should just analyze the spots that give you trouble and work on those measures. If you hear those parts yourself, you can just do it alone, but if not, then your teacher should help.

From the beginning of the other pieces it is clear now that you do understand the basic pulse and the rhythm of the pieces. From what you write I think there's now the problem of not knowing every part of the piece piece well enough, which you react to with tempo fluctuations. That is quite common, but it's not the right way. You need to adress that. Practice in small sections and practice the harder parts more. It is quite telling that you say you could not keep the tempo down. What you must do when you have trouble is slow down the whole piece and only speed up after you know every part well enough. But as you noticed it is sometimes difficult to slow down. That just means you don't know what you are doing and only go with finger memory. You need to force yourself to play in a slower tempo. One way to do this is with a metronome and the other one is by counting slower in your head while you play.

I know I am repeating myself, but I still think you should start working with some easier pieces with your new teacher. You are spending a lot of time polishing these pieces, which might be better spend in learning different basic skills. These pieces are usually not ones you would play after a year and there's a reason: They are not as easy as it would seem and it's better to get the basics together by playing something from earlier grades. It is fine to supplement with harder pieces you really like, but most of your material should be more simple after only 14 months IMO. There may be people on this forum that can do miracles with very short experience, but the fact is that most good pianists have spent their early years with simple and sometimes boring material. Most of us need that to learn how to learn and learn how to practice before advancing in our repertoire. The etudes I referred to in my earlier posts would be good for that. If you insist on Bach, why not work through the AMB notebook. I have several editions of the book, I'll send you one if you want

Have you discussed your choice of pieces seriously with your new teacher and asked what he/she thinks would be suitable for you now? Does the teacher understand that you really want to learn to be a good pianist, not just play around with a few pieces?

To each his own in regard to the river song. Thanks for the advice and comment. Yes, absolutely! I can absolutely find myself in what you're saying about not knowing certain parts of the pieces I'm working on which are medling with the tempo.

The grieg and little prelude were chosen by my teacher. He showed me pieces that I should be able to play in regards to what I can already do. Maybe the way teaching is different in different kinds of countries? The river piece he actually wanted me to wait on because of not having the skill yet.

The thing about some of the pieces is, is that I don't really want to have them in my repertoire, just for practise's sake and knowing a wide variety of pieces. For example, I would love to have the little prelude 3 and rivers in my repertoire, but not the rest.

I'll e-mail my teacher about going with easier pieces and see what he thinks. I'll also inform him about going with the anna magdalena pieces.

In regards to hand exercises we've moved on to Hanon. He's going to show me how to play them during the next lesson.

But I have to be honest here too; I havn't been playing my usual hour a day for the past 10 days. Just enjoying myself and doing hand exercises. I have exams coming up and some personal issues which I think I've messaged you about Outin. Truthfully I only want to have 1 piece to work on while doing hand exercises, is that okay to do?

[outin]

To each his own in regard to the river song. Thanks for the advice and comment. Yes, absolutely! I can absolutely find myself in what you're saying about not knowing certain parts of the pieces I'm working on which are medling with the tempo.

The grieg and little prelude were chosen by my teacher. He showed me pieces that I should be able to play in regards to what I can already do. Maybe the way teaching is different in different kinds of countries? The river piece he actually wanted me to wait on because of not having the skill yet.

The way of teaching is different from teacher to teacher even in one country. Does your present teacher know how much time and work went into those pieces you already can play? Because your overall skill is not only what you can play but also how long it takes you to learn them. I agree with your teacher that you can learn these pieces, I just worry that advancing too fast will at some point bring you to the same kind of frustration I had at some point, when the repertoire I was studying and the overall skill level were really not in sync. I don't want you to loose your motivation to the piano if this happens.

The thing about some of the pieces is, is that I don't really want to have them in my repertoire, just for practise's sake and knowing a wide variety of pieces. For example, I would love to have the little prelude 3 and rivers in my repertoire, but not the rest.

Building a repertoire is not quite the same as learning to play the piano. You should also practice pieces you will never perform IMO. That's what etudes are for (exceptions noted) and they have been around for a couple of hundred years. There is a reason for that

I'll e-mail my teacher about going with easier pieces and see what he thinks. I'll also inform him about going with the anna magdalena pieces.

In regards to hand exercises we've moved on to Hanon. He's going to show me how to play them during the next lesson.

Hmm...I don't think your have much problems with finger dexterity or note accuracy, so I'm a little surprised he would want you to do those at this point...It's your brain that needs practice, and there are much better musical etudes for that.

Anyway, if you want the Bach book, just PM me your address.

But I have to be honest here too; I havn't been playing my usual hour a day for the past 10 days. Just enjoying myself and doing hand exercises. I have exams coming up and some personal issues which I think I've messaged you about Outin. Truthfully I only want to have 1 piece to work on while doing hand exercises, is that okay to do?

If your have time constraints (which I know so well myself) the more reason not to waste your time on Hanon...but just my opinion...maybe you can do them while reading your study books? 

What me and my teacher are doing now:
I have a few pieces that require a longer time to learn and those I have chosen because of the music. In addition to that we pick one short etude at the time to supplement the "real pieces" and it may take me one or two weeks to get it done and then we take a next one. The fact that they are short allowes me to learn them with only 5 to 10 minutes a day spent on them. I can still practice the other pieces.

[hfmadopter]

 David, could you listen as well? I hold both your opinions in high regard.

I did listen . I have nothing to say at this point that hasn't been said already. You have a new teacher, I don't know the teachers plans for you and would rather not interfere with his/her process. I am, however, glad to hear that you have a new teacher.

Just keep at it, you will be fine !

[chechig]

Hello. I'm a selfstudent and something that helps me a lot is to listen to the pieces I'm learning. I know that usually people thiks that this is a mistake, but it will give you a clue about timing and rhythm, once you have them in your head it will be much easier.