Sostenuto pedal in Beethoven an anachronism - thoughts?

[kalirren]

So I've found that using the sostenuto pedal in some stretches of Beethoven is really, really helpful.  There's just one little problem I have about this, and it's that the sostenuto pedal wasn't invented until after Beethoven had died.  It use couldn't possibly have been intended by LVB himself.  In this respect it's just like using the sustain pedal for Bach.

What are the forum's thoughts?  In which situations would use be overuse?

[iansinclair]

Well, it is an anachronism.  Of sorts.  It is not, however, in my view at least in the same category as using the sustain pedal in Bach.  The difference is that if the thing is working right, it holds the damper off on only those specific notes (or that note), just as though you were holding the key or keys down, while the sustain pedal holds all the dampers off for the whole instrument -- and changes the tone quality as well as giving ample opportunity to muddy things up.  The sostenuto pedal, however, is rather tricky to use correctly, or at least I find it so -- and I use it only when I simply can't hold the note or notes in question with a stray finger or two (a rather nice example being a bit of fluff I'm working on at the moment -- the Sibelius Impromptu #4, in e minor).

It is rather important to remember, however, that if you do become accustomed to using it for something, and you then want to play that something on some other piano, that not all pianos have the sostenuto pedal -- nor does it work reliably on all the pianos that do have it.  Which is something to check on...

[kalirren]

Well, it is an anachronism.  Of sorts.  It is not, however, in my view at least in the same category as using the sustain pedal in Bach.  The difference is that if the thing is working right, it holds the damper off on only those specific notes (or that note), just as though you were holding the key or keys down, while the sustain pedal holds all the dampers off for the whole instrument -- and changes the tone quality as well as giving ample opportunity to muddy things up.  The sostenuto pedal, however, is rather tricky to use correctly, or at least I find it so -- and I use it only when I simply can't hold the note or notes in question with a stray finger or two (a rather nice example being a bit of fluff I'm working on at the moment -- the Sibelius Impromptu #4, in e minor).

It is rather important to remember, however, that if you do become accustomed to using it for something, and you then want to play that something on some other piano, that not all pianos have the sostenuto pedal -- nor does it work reliably on all the pianos that do have it.  Which is something to check on...

Agreed on basically all points above.  The particular use case that prompted this inquiry was a pretty borderline thing, from the Rondo of Op. 2 # 2... You see those quarter notes in the bass that I've parenthesized?  Those extra quarter-note stems aren't in the score, only the 16ths.  But I think the sostenuto would bring out a new bass line legato that would support the right hand legato.  And yes, it would involve catching the dampers on exactly that 16th note in each case.

[thesixthsensemusic]

In the end all that matters is how you make it sound. If the middle pedal works in helping you execute the music as Beethoven or anyone else prior its invention described it in the score, go for it!

[j_menz]

Beethoven himself was a bit of a gadget freak, and kept a keen eye on developments of the pianos of his time. I think he would be shocked to learn someone didn't use (appropriately) all the tools available to them.

[chrisbutch]

The moment you start playing Beethoven on a modern grand you're involved in an anachronism anyway. Without thinking about it we do things which no piano in Beethoven's time could do, just as Beethoven's pianos could do things (for instance a true una corda) impossible on a modern grand. The sostenuto pedal is no different - just more obvious visually. So everything depends on the musical sense.

[kalirren]

True, all true...thanks for your insights.

...you know, I don't really understand why I felt the need to create this thread and ask this question, yet I did.  Maybe I'm still struggling with myself about the value of period authenticity.  I used to think that the idea had little merit, and that we should always take advantage of what we have, that's just our duty as instrumentalists.  But after listening to performances on period instruments, and performances inspired by period instruments, I also acknowledge that the instruments pose unwritten constraints upon performance, constraints that can often be illuminating.

Thanks again.

[pianoplunker]

True, all true...thanks for your insights.

...you know, I don't really understand why I felt the need to create this thread and ask this question, yet I did.  Maybe I'm still struggling with myself about the value of period authenticity.  I used to think that the idea had little merit, and that we should always take advantage of what we have, that's just our duty as instrumentalists.  But after listening to performances on period instruments, and performances inspired by period instruments, I also acknowledge that the instruments pose unwritten constraints upon performance, constraints that can often be illuminating.

Thanks again.

It is an interesting thread I think. We have to realize that the instruments of any period can have  different qualities and different constraints within that period. It is not just about modern pianos vs Beethoven's pianos. It is also about the different pianos Beethoven had to chose from and the way they sounded comparitively. Our modern pianos have vastly different levels of quality and character as well. This thread brings up another question to me. How come Moonlight Sonata shows pedal markings ? 

[kalirren]

This thread brings up another question to me. How come Moonlight Sonata shows pedal markings?

I assume you mean the first movement?  Those are editorial, methinks.  Beethoven's autograph copy doesn't show any pedal markings in the 1st movement.  Unfortunately the first page, and the last page of the last movement, are both lost, so we'll have to take the first edition's word that the pedal is to be held down throughout.

[j_menz]

But after listening to performances on period instruments, and performances inspired by period instruments, I also acknowledge that the instruments pose unwritten constraints upon performance, constraints that can often be illuminating.

True, but we can't listen to period instruments the same way they originally came across. We have heard modern instruments, and we can't unhear them. We come from a different set of aural experiences. We cannot hear from the place of the original hearers.

We have also heard other musics, and music developed from Beethoven's (say) ideas.