Technical Exercises & Etudes

[pianistaw]

I just was thinking about technical exercises the other day...And the way in which they are frowned upon. I, myself, have been very firmly grounded in the anti-exercises group. But lately I have been wondering, can they be so useless when so many people use them, even professionals(or have, e.g. in their younger years). I was very much affected by a post by dima_ogorodnikov, where he/she (sry, I don't know what this person is... ) said that the masterworks, or any other piece for that matter, should not be abused in the way of studying them for months and months and in the end not even be very satisfied. On the other hand, musicians are the probably the worst perfectionists   Back to the topic, this is mostly the way I study works, when they are very much above my technical level. So I came to think about this when I read a post by thalbergmad, where he said that he would not want to "wash his dirty linen" on Brahms music, and instead use Dohnanyi.

So...I am basically asking this: Which technical exercises do you recommend? Or even etudes. Just to focus on the technical part. I am strongly inclined to work with the Liszt Technical Exercises(not etudes   ). But then how do you organize the work? Liszt's exercises consist of 12 books, 86 exercises. Sure, one could do it as Liszt did, play it all through every day for 4 hours. But I only practice for 3 - 3 1/2 hours, so I need something bit less. Could you suggest to me some way of organizing the technical work, in like which exercises, how many etc. Feel free to suggest other exercises and etudes...though I will not take your advice if you recommend Czerny or Hanon...too mainstream  

thanks in advance  

[dima_76557]

@ pianistaw

Assuming that you already know how to play the piano and how not to hurt yourself, do the "two-finger preparation for scales" from Book II, starting from no. 41. This will teach you a lot about finding balance in finger technique.

[pianistaw]

@ pianistaw

Assuming that you already know how to play the piano and how not to hurt yourself, do the "two-finger preparation for scales" from Book II, starting from no. 41. This will teach you a lot about finding balance in finger technique.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear, I am not a beginner. I am around grade 8, so I don't think I will get too much out of focusing on that particular one
I somewhere read that you did the Liszt TE's yourself? How did you structure the practice?

[dima_76557]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear, I am not a beginner. I am around grade 8, so I don't think I will get too much out of focusing on that particular one

Think again, because you may be underestimating its value. This is actually the only technical exercise anyone would ever need. All other techniques (and I mean that) are based on how well you can do this one.

How did you structure the practice?

Of course, you should try them all at least once and determine where the weak spots are. You then work on the weak spots. Every exercise is based on the previous one, so if you can't do it, you should go back instead of struggle on the one you have trouble with. No advice on this one, because what works for one does not necessarily work for somebody else.

[pianistaw]

Think again, because you may be underestimating its value. This is actually the only technical exercise anyone would ever need. All other techniques (and I mean that) are based on how well you can do this one.

Of course, you should try them all at least once and determine where the weak spots are. You then work on the weak spots. Every exercise is based on the previous one, so if you can't do it, you should go back instead of struggle on the one you have trouble with. No advice on this one, because what works for one does not necessarily work for somebody else.

So does one try them all first and the ones that are mastered are left alone, and then just focus on the difficult ones? I'm kind of confused...  What is then left when you have all mastered? 

[dima_76557]

So does one try them all first and the ones that are mastered are left alone, and then just focus on the difficult ones? I'm kind of confused...  :- What is then left when you have all mastered?  

From your questions I understand that these exercises may not be what you need. The only correct way to practise them is to try and find out in the process what exactly Liszt is trying to teach you. This is only between you and Liszt. If you can't figure out for yourself how they are structured and what you should do with them, then your are simply not ready for them. That's nothing to be ashamed of. Pick something else, but determine for yourself first what exactly it is you want to accomplish.

[pianistaw]

From your questions I understand that these exercises may not be what you need. The only correct way to practise them is to try and find out in the process what exactly Liszt is trying to teach you. This is only between you and Liszt. If you can't figure out for yourself how they are structured and what you should do with them, then your are simply not ready for them. That's nothing to be ashamed of. Pick something else, but determine for yourself first what exactly it is you want to accomplish.

You see to know what you're talking about...the reason for which I chose to start some kind of regimen is because I feel that my technique is lacking. It always takes me really long time to learn new pieces because I often have to learn new techniques...so I kind of want the technical problems condensed into exercises or études, so it gets easier for me to solve them. So maybe I don't want to do Liszt's technical exercises....do you have anything else to recommend? Exercises or etudes...I just want to better my technique

[dima_76557]

do you have anything else to recommend? Exercises or etudes...I just want to better my technique

You need to find yourself a mentor ("teacher" could be the wrong word here). He/she can observe in context what you do, how you do it and what you might need. I don't think anybody here can really answer that question. Don't believe in the magic of this or that book as such; it will be a waste of time. Good luck!

[pianistaw]

You need to find yourself a mentor ("teacher" could be the wrong word here). He/she can observe in context what you do, how you do it and what you might need. I don't think anybody here can really answer that question. Don't believe in the magic of this or that book as such; it will be a waste of time. Good luck!

I have only a teacher, who I think is pretty good! We have a very good teacher-student relationship and I am always love going to lesson. She is kind of my mentor...but if I had to have a REAL mentor, he would have to be a lot more skilled for me to idolize him and internalize everything he says without question.

I know it was naive to think a book with exercises would be the answer to my problems...I need a more pragmatical approach.
Thanks for your help!

 

[ajspiano]

at your level you obviously have some skills, but you probably also lack an understanding of just how skilled you can get or perhaps aspects of what you actually need to develop in order to gain the skill you can recognise in top pianists.

for me surpassing that level meant dropping back to square one and totally reconsidering everything about how to use my body at the piano.

no exercise or repertoire was too easy, I relearnt how to play things so simple that they would be boring for a total beginner. It becomes about connecting yourself to the sensations you receive from your body when playing and refining your motions and response to sound quality in absolute detail.

the skill dima mentioned - "balance" - is absolutely critical and is developed at a super slow pace observing connecting one single note to another at an ultra slow speed.. the ability to play the 2 notes is not the challenge, its to play them with absolute precision from a full range of ppp-fff with perfect consistency and total freedom of motion.

....

and while I'm not a huge advocate of hanon, you should consider what rachmaninoff said on it (and whether you would be up to that standard) before dismissing it for liszt.

[pianistaw]

at your level you obviously have some skills, but you probably also lack an understanding of just how skilled you can get or perhaps aspects of what you actually need to develop in order to gain the skill you can recognise in top pianists.

for me surpassing that level meant dropping back to square one and totally reconsidering everything about how to use my body at the piano.

no exercise or repertoire was too easy, I relearnt how to play things so simple that they would be boring for a total beginner. It becomes about connecting yourself to the sensations you receive from your body when playing and refining your motions and response to sound quality in absolute detail.

the skill dima mentioned - "balance" - is absolutely critical and is developed at a super slow pace observing connecting one single note to another at an ultra slow speed.. the ability to play the 2 notes is not the challenge, its to play them with absolute precision from a full range of ppp-fff with perfect consistency and total freedom of motion.

....

and while I'm not a huge advocate of hanon, you should consider what rachmaninoff said on it (and whether you would be up to that standard) before dismissing it for liszt.

That's something I think about a lot. Refining technique from the basics, and kind of "rebuilding" my technique for the better. What kind of exercises did you do? Or perhaps what is not as important as how. Did you drop all the other advanced repertoire just to focus getting everything right?

I've read that about Rachmaninoff...he was an amazing pianist and composer, and this opinion of his kind of slaps every anti-hanonist in the face. But I am still not so sure...Liszt seems to be a lot more thorough. It's like Liszt took every possible situation at the piano and wrote exercises for it.

Then there's the other article where it says that Rach practiced super-slow. I kind of like that, since I always practice extremely slow in the early learning stages. That usually takes care of things, but if there are fast passages, I always have to learn the "feel" of playing fast. Otherwise I am stuck.

What's your opinion on Dohnanyi?

[awesom_o]

That's something I think about a lot. Refining technique from the basics, and kind of "rebuilding" my technique for the better. What kind of exercises did you do? Or perhaps what is not as important as how. Did you drop all the other advanced repertoire just to focus getting everything right?

If you wish to play at a truly world-class level (but don't, currently), this is the path which you must follow. When I rebuilt my technique, virtually 100% from scratch, under a new teacher about 7 years ago, he wanted me to drop ALL of the big pieces I was currently working on. The technical program which he had me follow lasted about two years. Every single day, I prioritized the technical work for the first 30-60 minutes of my practicing.

I would be happy to share with you the initial exercises, which take about a month to complete.  Once these exercises have been studied sufficiently, the body will be ready to handle the more challenging technical work which comes later on in the program. PM me.

ajspiano's experience of 'dropping back to square one and totally reconsidering everything about how to use my body at the piano' sounds very similar to the experience I had in developing my technique.

[pianistaw]

If you wish to play at a truly world-class level (but don't, currently), this is the path which you must follow. When I rebuilt my technique, virtually 100% from scratch, under a new teacher about 7 years ago, he wanted me to drop ALL of the big pieces I was currently working on. The technical program which he had me follow lasted about two years. Every single day, I prioritized the technical work for the first 30-60 minutes of my practicing.

I would be happy to share with you the initial exercises, which take about a month to complete.  Once these exercises have been studied sufficiently, the body will be ready to handle the more challenging technical work which comes later on in the program. PM me.

ajspiano's experience of 'dropping back to square one and totally reconsidering everything about how to use my body at the piano' sounds very similar to the experience I had in developing my technique.

PM'ed you!

[apollon1717]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear, I am not a beginner. I am around grade 8, so I don't think I will get too much out of focusing on that particular one
I somewhere read that you did the Liszt TE's yourself? How did you structure the practice?

The advice given to practise the 2 finger one is the best advice one could give.
Liszt himself use this ex.to regain his technique after periods of inactivity.
Practise them with all possible fingering ..even one's like 2-4 or 3-5..
Slure to the second note..
On Diatonic and chromatic scales...
IMO this one of the most formidable "little" exc.ever ...
Regardless the level ...

P>S ..I 've heard Michelangeli doing this before a rehearsal.He took great care at excecuting correctly.

Sincerely...

[pianistaw]

The advice given to practise the 2 finger one is the best advice one could give.
Liszt himself use this ex.to regain his technique after periods of inactivity.
Practise them with all possible fingering ..even one's like 2-4 or 3-5..
Slure to the second note..
On Diatonic and chromatic scales...
IMO this one of the most formidable "little" exc.ever ...
Regardless the level ...

P>S ..I 've heard Michelangeli doing this before a rehearsal.He took great care at excecuting correctly.

Sincerely...

Alright, I'll test that one...you use it? Then it must be of use! At least for him...

[andrewkoay]

@ pianistaw

Assuming that you already know how to play the piano and how not to hurt yourself, do the "two-finger preparation for scales" from Book II, starting from no. 41. This will teach you a lot about finding balance in finger technique.

What is that? I'm really interested to know more about this exercise too!

[timothy42b]

What is that? I'm really interested to know more about this exercise too!

I downloaded it, the Liszt is public domain.

Any tips on how to do it?  I've noticed there are many more wrong ways to do an exercise than right ways. 

[dima_76557]

Any tips on how to do it?  I've noticed there are many more wrong ways to do an exercise than right ways.

Use your default touch (could be finger-pressing, finger-lifting, arm drop, rotation or whatever) and don't speed up too soon. Concentrate on balance and convenience.
EDIT: Here is Richard Beauchamp's ("Music & Health") take on it:
https://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/articles/slurs.html

[andrewkoay]

Use your default touch (could be finger-pressing, finger-lifting, arm drop, rotation or whatever) and don't speed up too soon. Concentrate on balance and convenience.
EDIT: Here is Richard Beauchamp's ("Music & Health") take on it:
https://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/articles/slurs.html

I'm starting to study this particular TE that you recommended. It really looks deceptively simple, but after just a short period of time, I found that my fingers started to automatically bounce and jump from key to key smoothly (instead of physically moving to the next key itself). Then I tried playing some of my more advanced repertoire (Rach concerto no.2 and his preludes, Chopin Etudes and the Chaconne) and it felt so effortless! It's really quite a magical feeling. Will continue to see how it works out.

Thanks dima_76557for recommending this gem of a little exercise!

[ajspiano]

That's something I think about a lot. Refining technique from the basics, and kind of "rebuilding" my technique for the better. What kind of exercises did you do? Or perhaps what is not as important as how. Did you drop all the other advanced repertoire just to focus getting everything right?

Well, I did it with out a teacher (don't do that, takes way longer and you screw up everything repeatedly) so I didn't quite have the discipline to drop big repertoire.

I did however re-evaluate my approach to repertoire in general regarding what I considered to be my level.

So for starters, as well as looking at new pieces at the level I began playing every single piece of music I could get my hands on at what you might consider an easy level (like grade 1-3 standard to begin with) and gradually progressing through levels but covering hundreds of works in each, not just 5-10. I didn't really learn them perfectly, or play them over and over but I was applying lots of new ideas about how to play in these easier contexts. As the grades got a bit higher I put more time into the "standard" works at the level - so where during my exam years I learnt a prelude and fugue by bach, now I went back and thoroughly covered inventions and sinfonias completely for example.

I also raised the bar on performance standard significantly, not just in terms of what I might gain from listening to a recording from myself but in terms of how I felt and thought during the performance as well.

I formulated VERY detailed "sound images" about how I wanted to play and always pushed to get closer to these.

....

Aside from piece work, I didn't really hit exercises as written by anyone, though I have played through lots of them to see what the authors thought in regard to what was important to develop. "Exercise" in itself is the wrong approach, its not practice these notes and see an improvement after however many weeks. The notes are designed (if they are well authored) to force physical problems that can't be overcome without using the correct physical approach so its much more about taking a set of notes and thinking about and testing how to do it so that it becomes easy. Once you find the easy (physical) you're at a point where easy is not easy, because mentally its VERY hard. So you are tasked with making the physically easy, mentally easy too.

To do this you need to get well versed in how your brain learns, and become very sensitive to the signals your body provides. So you start out by play one note, and focusing intently on what it feels like to do that - and you need to explore gradually play a signal note hundreds if not thousands of times observing first what your fingers feel like. If you change what your finger does (level of curvature, force applied, which parts move etc.) how does that impact what it feels like..  then how do all these changes impact what it feels like in your wrist, upper arms, shoulders etc..  all these body parts are explored mentally, and in great depth.

Once you are acquainted with a single note, on each different finger, you start on note transitions between fingers - and you're going to be here for a long time because there is a great deal of combinations. Be a bit systematic. 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 2-3, 2-4, 2-5, 3-4 etc. and in reverse, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1, 3-2 etc.  But remember there's now different keyboard configurations, like semitones (of which there are quite a few variants - white-white, white-black, black-white OR (in more depth), white-black, white-black, [black, white]black-white, [white-white]black-white)..  plus this stuff in-front of you or at the extremities of the instrument.

If you explore physical sensations in all these different configurations you will learn a great deal about what can be sensed at the piano and the difference between your fingers and the general topography of the keyboard.

But the critical is not so much doing as your told by a me or a teacher, but to honestly think about what there is to deal with in fine detail and experiment with it.

Learn a bit about your anatomy, and what different functions are open to you in a physical sense (how can i move differently?) and test the possibilities in a musical context.

.........

Above all, everything I discovered during my 'experiments' was applied to real music with conscious thought. And I observed and emulated a lot of different pianists physically, to get a sense of different movements they used, and I read HEAPS of literature on piano technique.

[pianistaw]

Well, I did it with out a teacher (don't do that, takes way longer and you screw up everything repeatedly) so I didn't quite have the discipline to drop big repertoire.

I did however re-evaluate my approach to repertoire in general regarding what I considered to be my level.

So for starters, as well as looking at new pieces at the level I began playing every single piece of music I could get my hands on at what you might consider an easy level (like grade 1-3 standard to begin with) and gradually progressing through levels but covering hundreds of works in each, not just 5-10. I didn't really learn them perfectly, or play them over and over but I was applying lots of new ideas about how to play in these easier contexts. As the grades got a bit higher I put more time into the "standard" works at the level - so where during my exam years I learnt a prelude and fugue by bach, now I went back and thoroughly covered inventions and sinfonias completely for example.

I also raised the bar on performance standard significantly, not just in terms of what I might gain from listening to a recording from myself but in terms of how I felt and thought during the performance as well.

I formulated VERY detailed "sound images" about how I wanted to play and always pushed to get closer to these.

....

Aside from piece work, I didn't really hit exercises as written by anyone, though I have played through lots of them to see what the authors thought in regard to what was important to develop. "Exercise" in itself is the wrong approach, its not practice these notes and see an improvement after however many weeks. The notes are designed (if they are well authored) to force physical problems that can't be overcome without using the correct physical approach so its much more about taking a set of notes and thinking about and testing how to do it so that it becomes easy. Once you find the easy (physical) you're at a point where easy is not easy, because mentally its VERY hard. So you are tasked with making the physically easy, mentally easy too.

To do this you need to get well versed in how your brain learns, and become very sensitive to the signals your body provides. So you start out by play one note, and focusing intently on what it feels like to do that - and you need to explore gradually play a signal note hundreds if not thousands of times observing first what your fingers feel like. If you change what your finger does (level of curvature, force applied, which parts move etc.) how does that impact what it feels like..  then how do all these changes impact what it feels like in your wrist, upper arms, shoulders etc..  all these body parts are explored mentally, and in great depth.

Once you are acquainted with a single note, on each different finger, you start on note transitions between fingers - and you're going to be here for a long time because there is a great deal of combinations. Be a bit systematic. 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 2-3, 2-4, 2-5, 3-4 etc. and in reverse, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1, 3-2 etc.  But remember there's now different keyboard configurations, like semitones (of which there are quite a few variants - white-white, white-black, black-white OR (in more depth), white-black, white-black, [black, white]black-white, [white-white]black-white)..  plus this stuff in-front of you or at the extremities of the instrument.

If you explore physical sensations in all these different configurations you will learn a great deal about what can be sensed at the piano and the difference between your fingers and the general topography of the keyboard.

But the critical is not so much doing as your told by a me or a teacher, but to honestly think about what there is to deal with in fine detail and experiment with it.

Learn a bit about your anatomy, and what different functions are open to you in a physical sense (how can i move differently?) and test the possibilities in a musical context.

.........

Above all, everything I discovered during my 'experiments' was applied to real music with conscious thought. And I observed and emulated a lot of different pianists physically, to get a sense of different movements they used, and I read HEAPS of literature on piano technique.

Excellent post! It is probably hard to measure, but how do you feel that it has helped your technique? I. e. repertoire you had played before, does it feel better etc. Basically, the results. 

[ajspiano]

big repertoire that I learnt before is the hardest to deal with because there are far too many errors learnt in. I can feel them and know how to fix them but haven't spent a lot of time on sorting that out. Fixing this is slow disciplined work.

new material is far easier to learn because I can find the correct movements much quicker now that I know exactly the sensations to find and practice.

...

feelings aside, watching my own playing (or someone elses) I can usually identify movement errors on a single note within a generally well played passage. In weaker players I can frequently identify the general pit falls of their technique by ear and make an accurate assessment of what their hands will look like and what their body will be feeling just based on the sound they produce.

so you could say the improvements are significant... and I've hardly finished learning, my playing has a great many flaws (as video evidence on this forum will show).

[pianistaw]

big repertoire that I learnt before is the hardest to deal with because there are far too many errors learnt in. I can feel them and know how to fix them but haven't spent a lot of time on sorting that out. Fixing this is slow disciplined work.

new material is far easier to learn because I can find the correct movements much quicker now that I know exactly the sensations to find and practice.

...

feelings aside, watching my own playing (or someone elses) I can usually identify movement errors on a single note within a generally well played passage. In weaker players I can frequently identify the general pit falls of their technique by ear and make an accurate assessment of what their hands will look like and what their body will be feeling just based on the sound they produce.

so you could say the improvements are significant... and I've hardly finished learning, my playing has a great many flaws (as video evidence on this forum will show).

Your playing has many flaws? What do the rest of us have then, quadrillion flaws? Your playing is beautiful and interesting to listen to. Wherever you came from, you're highly skilled!

[ajspiano]

Your playing has many flaws? What do the rest of us have then, quadrillion flaws? Your playing is beautiful and interesting to listen to. Wherever you came from, you're highly skilled!

your present idea of what constitutes a flaw is probably a little different to mine.

the more you know the more you are aware of what you don't know. Sometimes I produce what most listeners may consider a musically good performance of a tough piece but physically it feels like a mess to me, or I'm hyper aware of inconsistencies of tone and general dynamic control.

I used to have my digital set up and watch the velocity readings while I played to work on high precision control over tone and dynamics. A digital can tell you your exact dynamic level with a reading between 0 and 127.. you need a decent action in it though in order for it to help much I think.

...

and flaws in my playing nothing to do with flaws in anyone else's really. Just figure out bit by bit how to improve and work on it. Even the best pianist will keep working on their playing their entire lives.

[pianistaw]

your present idea of what constitutes a flaw is probably a little different to mine.

the more you know the more you are aware of what you don't know. Sometimes I produce what most listeners may consider a musically good performance of a tough piece but physically it feels like a mess to me, or I'm hyper aware of inconsistencies of tone and general dynamic control.

I used to have my digital set up and watch the velocity readings while I played to work on high precision control over tone and dynamics. A digital can tell you your exact dynamic level with a reading between 0 and 127.. you need a decent action in it though in order for it to help much I think.

...

and flaws in my playing nothing to do with flaws in anyone else's really. Just figure out bit by bit how to improve and work on it. Even the best pianist will keep working on their playing their entire lives.

Well yes, I didn't know you meant those kind of flaws.

And of course, everyone works on what does not work. I think one of the most crucial things for a musician is to be a perfectionist. Striving for the utmost perfection, but in the end you will not get there anyway. You can just get as close as humanly possible. Note that I am talking about technique and musicality.

[apollon1717]

Still waiting for you to come up with the more efficient movements....

[pianistaw]

Still waiting for you to come up with the more efficient movements....

Who're you talking to? Kind of confusing.