fast stretched chords technique

[andrewkoay]

For me my weakness is in the fast, loud chords with my hands in a stretched position, for e.g. those in Rach concerti and his Etudes. (For e.g. measure 52 in Rach's prelude op.23 no.2 in B flat major) . I need to find a way to switch finger positions fast but yet be able to play fast consecutive chords strongly without straining my hand too much through the stretches (is that even possible?!). In Rachmaninov's 2nd concerto I actually had to cheat (by removing some notes in the middle) in order to play some of the chords better.

I don't think I have many problem with octaves as I don't need to stretch much to reach them. For e.g. I can play the Heroic Polonaise's octave section in the middle pretty easily.

I think my hand isn't too small, I can stretch from C to E (next octave).

What I tend to do is to close my hand as soon as possible after I play the chord, and to use more arm/body weight to press down on the keys, along with a high wrist to facilitate that with fingers remaining close to the keys.

Anyone has any suggestions that I can use to improve this area of my technique?

[awesom_o]

I don't think that fast, loud, widely-spread chords require any specific physical technique. Passages containing this type of material certainly require lots of deliberate, slow practice. But you shouldn't have to think about what movements you are using in that slow practice. The movements should come naturally.

Your overall technique should be able to accommodate a wide range of musical material.

Be careful with allowing your wrist to come up too high. We want to maintain a straight(ish) flexible line between the elbow and the knuckles for optimal energy transfer. If the wrist comes up too high, this line buckles in on itself, and our tone can collapse.

 

[andrewkoay]

I don't think that fast, loud, widely-spread chords require any specific physical technique. Passages containing this type of material certainly require lots of deliberate, slow practice. But you shouldn't have to think about what movements you are using in that slow practice. The movements should come naturally.

Your overall technique should be able to accommodate a wide range of musical material.

Be careful with allowing your wrist to come up too high. We want to maintain a straight(ish) flexible line between the elbow and the knuckles for optimal energy transfer. If the wrist comes up too high, this line buckles in on itself, and our tone can collapse.

 

I thought there was any secret technique that I was missing... looks like it's going to be the hard way, slow practice until it is right!

[awesom_o]

There are some things you could do to improve your aptitude in this area.

Work on arpeggios and scales in octaves, both hands together and hands separately. No pedal! Get used to producing a sound that is detache, forte, and very rhythmic in a steady, not-too-fast type of way. As you develop strength and suppleness, your control over the velocity should increase.

Also work on four-note chords in this manner. You should be able to play all of the chord patterns, including tonic, V7 and dim7, in all keys with equal ease.

Try playing root position V7 chords in both hands, again forte and detache, starting in C major, and going through all keys chromatically. Go at the pace at which you can control the tone coming from all fingers, making sure the chords are struck cleanly and solidly, without having to slow down the rhythm of the exercise to find any particular key.

Once you have developed a professional-level technique, you will be able to complete this exercise with terrifying efficiency and power. I can easily go all the way up and down the octave in under five seconds, chords fff, both hands having equal control.

Have you played any Etudes by Chopin?

[andrewkoay]

Hey awesom_o,

I can and have played most of the Chopin Etudes, except for the sixths and the jumps (both in op.25), might try them out one day.

Wow, i tried out your exercises, the arpeggios in octaves are quite hard... and the root position v7 chords are quite hard at fff. Good exercises! The fingers must all be "stiff" enough so that they don't buckle, and this takes quite some strength from the hand. Do you think it's just a issue with hand strength?

[faulty_damper]

What I tend to do is to close my hand as soon as possible after I play the chord, and to use more arm/body weight to press down on the keys, along with a high wrist to facilitate that with fingers remaining close to the keys.

You shouldn't press down.  Ever.  This forces your hands to tense up to brace against your own weight, thus creating tension.  You should be shooting your hands down at an angle.  This directs your momentum back to you, like bouncing a ball on the ground to a wall.

[awesom_o]

Hey awesom_o,

I can and have played most of the Chopin Etudes, except for the sixths and the jumps (both in op.25), might try them out one day.

 The fingers must all be "stiff" enough so that they don't buckle, and this takes quite some strength from the hand. Do you think it's just a issue with hand strength?

I am glad to hear that you have studied 22/24! That's a pretty good count by anyone's standards.

The fingers must never, ever, ever be stiff! They must always remain supple, no matter what you are playing!

Playing the piano at a high level takes a huge amount of hand strength.

Plenty of folks on here will disagree with that last point, and claim that hand strength is irrelevant to piano-playing. Trust me, it is anything but irrelevant. Listen to my recording of op.10 and 25 and you'll understand where I'm coming from.

faulty_damper makes an excellent point here. Pressing down causes a terrible interruption in the flow of musical energy, as the hand is forced to stiffen in order to absorb the force of the blow you have just delivered.

The way I see it: the hammer delivers the only blow you need. The more you 'strike' or 'push' the keys, the less actual control over the hammer you will have.

Do you improvise?

[andrewkoay]

faulty_damper:

I know that pressing down is a bad idea in general as it tenses up the forearm muscles. I always believe that piano playing is more about the speed of attack rather than using brute force. What I meant by "pressing down" using bodyweight/arm (probably a pretty poor way of expressing it haha) is to come up from high and attack downwards using the weight of the arms and bodyweight for energy.

awesome_o:

I still think that the fingers cannot be "too relaxed" that they become a little floppy when playing chords (which causes more strain), it must be "stiff" enough to prevent that from happening. Of course one cannot stiffen it up to the point where you introduce strain into the picture.

I improvise plenty, and also like to dabble in compositions (for both piano and Chinese pop LOL). But I have a lot of half-baked compositions which I never had the time to complete...

[awesom_o]

faulty_damper:

I know that pressing down is a bad idea in general as it tenses up the forearm muscles. I always believe that piano playing is more about the speed of attack rather than using brute force. What I meant by "pressing down" using bodyweight/arm (probably a pretty poor way of expressing it haha) is to come up from high and attack downwards using the weight of the arms and bodyweight for energy.

awesome_o:

I still think that the fingers cannot be "too relaxed" that they become a little floppy when playing chords (which causes more strain), it must be "stiff" enough to prevent that from happening. Of course one cannot stiffen it up to the point where you introduce strain into the picture.

I improvise plenty, and also like to dabble in compositions (for both piano and Chinese pop LOL). But I have a lot of half-baked compositions which I never had the time to complete...

I am thrilled to hear that you improvise regularly and also compose!

Having a ton of half-baked compositions (and being quite poor) is the unfortunate reality of being a composer! Over time, our ability to see a project through from beginning to end increases.

You are absolutely correct when you say that piano-playing is more about the speed of attack than using brute force!

You are also absolutely correct that 'too relaxed'=floppy

With sufficient training and experience, the fingers can acquire the qualities of spring-steel: highly flexible and elastic, but also extremely strong. In a word, supple. Chopin loved the word supple and used it in his teaching very frequently!

It is the strength of a gymnast that we must cultivate, rather than the strength of a weight-lifter or bodybuilder.

TOO relaxed=the qualities of a wet noodle!

[faulty_damper]

... What I meant by "pressing down" using bodyweight/arm (probably a pretty poor way of expressing it haha) is to come up from high and attack downwards using the weight of the arms and bodyweight for energy.

That's the same thing as pressing down which wastes energy doing nothing.  Try it the way I suggested and I guarantee you'll notice a significant improvement AND it's faster and easier.

[andrewkoay]

That's the same thing as pressing down which wastes energy doing nothing.  Try it the way I suggested and I guarantee you'll notice a significant improvement AND it's faster and easier.

I understand what you mean, I also go 45 degrees into the piano and bounce upwards if I am playing relatively slow big chords, but if it's fast, I think this would require too much "recovery time" to even be viable. I'm talking about fast chords like my example of the section in the Rachmaninov Prelude in B flat major.

Bouncing from key to key is a great idea though!

[andrewkoay]

I am thrilled to hear that you improvise regularly and also compose!

Having a ton of half-baked compositions (and being quite poor) is the unfortunate reality of being a composer! Over time, our ability to see a project through from beginning to end increases.

You are absolutely correct when you say that piano-playing is more about the speed of attack than using brute force!

You are also absolutely correct that 'too relaxed'=floppy

With sufficient training and experience, the fingers can acquire the qualities of spring-steel: highly flexible and elastic, but also extremely strong. In a word, supple. Chopin loved the word supple and used it in his teaching very frequently!

It is the strength of a gymnast that we must cultivate, rather than the strength of a weight-lifter or bodybuilder.

TOO relaxed=the qualities of a wet noodle!

I tried your exercises, man they are really quite a workout to go through! I played scales and arppegios in octaves and octave-chords at fff. After about half an hour I was drenched in sweat and my hands were quite tired haha. It seems that there is a certain arch (a gentle downwards curve) of the fingers which allows me to play fast and strongly, the flatter the fingers the harder it is to sustain the fast chords/octaves without tiring (the keys will stretch my hand out slightly as I impact the keys which strains my hand) . Strangely, my left hand seems to be a lot stronger than my right hand in octaves/chords (normally my right hand is a lot stronger and nimbler than my left).

[faulty_damper]

I understand what you mean, I also go 45 degrees into the piano and bounce upwards if I am playing relatively slow big chords, but if it's fast, I think this would require too much "recovery time" to even be viable. I'm talking about fast chords like my example of the section in the Rachmaninov Prelude in B flat major.

Bouncing from key to key is a great idea though!

You aren't supposed to bounce.  That's just the image you should use to get the idea into your arms, but physically, you aren't actually doing that.  You are actually punching.  Also, what you think is of little importance to what you actually do.