New technique: Pedal vibrato

[faulty_damper]

Here's a simple technique that I'd like to share which helps make long-held notes or chords more musically interesting, especially if the notes are in the middle or low register of the piano.  I call it pedal vibrato.  It mimics the pulsating tone of vibrato and is achieved by modulating the dampers.  

Background:
When you play a note or chord, you can change the tone after it is depressed by the use of the dampers.  Stepping on the pedal can make the tone more sonorous and warm, due to sympathetic vibrations of the other strings, as well as extend it's duration.  Releasing the pedal will stop sympathetic vibrations and thus make the tone dry.

Execution:
After you depress the key(s), gently pulse the pedal to lift the dampers off and on the strings.  The sympathetic vibrations of other strings will pulse giving the impression of a waxing and waning tone.  Thus, you'll achieve pedal vibrato.

Examples of where to apply this technique:
Beethoven -  Piano Sonata in C Minor, Op.13, 1st movement opening chord: The C Minor chord can use vibrato as after the 'crash'.
Bach-Busoni - Chaconne in D Minor: opening progression, D Major sequence, beginning of D Minor section.

NB:
1. This effect can only be achieved on an acoustic piano.
2. As with anything, learning to use it effectively requires careful listening and practice.

[j_menz]

I'm surprised you think this is new. I would only add that variations on the same are achievable by different levels of pedalling (ie, it can be more subtle than on/off/on/off).

[faulty_damper]

Why do you think that I think it's new?  I made no such mention in the initial post that would imply that.

Anyway, I'd like to share this since there has been no formal discussion of it and it would be a great tool to use in regards to dampers.  It can be used to achieve that vibrato effect that many pianists say is not possible.  I'd like to hear pianists, especially concert pianists, use this technique as it is a very subtle but musically expressive tool when used right.

Long-held chords or notes that are dry aren't musically pleasing.
That's why strings, woodwinds, and vocalists add vibrato because it creates color and character.
Pianists have been traditionally out of luck.  Until now!
Introducing the Pedal Vibrato
Just a touch in just the right places and it can transform that dry chord into a colorful chord!
Ahh... just imagine how the soft closing chord would sound with just a tad of pedal vibrato.
It will soothe your listeners' ears and make them believe you're a wonderful pianist, creating tones they never thought possible.
The Pedal Vibrato, now available at your feet!

[nyiregyhazi]

Why do you think that I think it's new?  I made no such mention in the initial post that would imply that.

"New technique"? Personally I rarely change the pedal without fluttering it at least a little. It feels plain weird to just take it straight up and back down, most of the time, without at least a touch of fluttering. There's nothing remotely unusual about what you speak of. However, I think you're imagining the "vibrato". I use it to smooth over edges and to improve clarity- not under the impression that it creates any notable vibrato effect. You'd have to upload an extremely persuasive example before you could even begin to persuade me regarding the Pathetique. It sounds plain ugly to play the loud chord into an open pedal without at least fluttering it after the notes sound but vibrato? I don't get that one bit. I simply flutter to allow the chord to emerge with clarity, but not so abruptly as when lifting the pedal entirely for a while then pressing it again. Playing into an already open pedal without some fluttering is too murky and ill-defined and that's the only reason I use this technique so widely.

[faulty_damper]

Why would anyone play such a loud chord with the dampers off the strings? That would give muddy tones, and that's not the technique I described at all.  Vibrato it just before the next soft chords, not immediately after striking it.  The gives some musical interest instead of hearing the chord slowly decay into the soft chords.

[nyiregyhazi]

Why would anyone play such a loud chord with the dampers off the strings? That would give muddy tones, and that's not the technique I described at all.  Vibrato it just before the next soft chords, not immediately after striking it.  The gives some musical interest instead of hearing the chord slowly decay into the soft chords.

You change instantly after sounding and flutter- so as to get both the resonance and the full clarity. Playing a loud chord without first raising the dampers gives a horrible sound. Too rough and no sense of growing into a big sound. It just hits hard, with less sonority and more of a percussive edge. You simply need to change the pedal instantly afterwards, to get the benefits of playing into an open pedal. Only by starting with the pedal down and changing can you truly make the effect of a sound that "grows" after beginning, rather than one that hits hard and then instantly starts to fade.

Please upload a recording with and without the vibrato (preferably without declaring which is which first) to illustrate the difference.

[faulty_damper]

I think you're talking about something else.  Pedal vibrato is far more subtle than what you describe and isn't used for "growing" sound, just a slight modulation as the sound decays.  It's not as noticeable as what you describe.

[nyiregyhazi]

I think you're talking about something else.  Pedal vibrato is far more subtle than what you describe and isn't used for "growing" sound, just a slight modulation as the sound decays.  It's not as noticeable as what you describe.

The timing of pedal depression is what grows the sound. The pedal fluttering has nothing to do with that aspect. It comes after the depression. Who detailed precisely how "noticeable" my fluttering is? All I said is that I flutter the pedal after virtually all pedal changes. I didn't say a thing about the extent.  

If you're confident that you're hearing something objectively significant, upload a recording with and without just for that single C minor chord. If you're not confident enough to do that, this thread is totally pointless. We can't know exactly what you are referring to or even whether it's an objectively significant effect that can be notably conveyed to a listener or a subjective illusion for the performer alone to experience. Post a recording and I'll listen with an open mind, but there's no scope for fruitful discussion without a result to reference. Even as someone who flutters the pedal like crazy, I'm not convinced that what I do necessarily has any significant effect much of the time- except when cleaning up a texture that began slightly murky. On one single chord that's already well into decaying, I doubt very much whether pedal fluttering makes any serious difference- unless there was a murkiness to the initial sound, that can be cleansed by the dampers. Near the start of the sound is where fluttering can make the most difference. I don't believe there's any likely difference between fluttering towards the end of a long chord and simply lifting the pedal slowly and with sensitivity (so it lingers in the "biting point" without simply coming straight up and cleaning the overtones in an instant).

[faulty_damper]

Why don't you try it and honestly try to hear the difference?  It is definitely noticeable, just like a pedaled note sounds different than an un-pedaled one.  You can't deny that the two sound different, otherwise, we wouldn't use pedal to create warmth.

[nyiregyhazi]

Why don't you try it and honestly try to hear the difference?  It is definitely noticeable, just like a pedaled note sounds different than an un-pedaled one.  You can't deny that the two sound different, otherwise, we wouldn't use pedal to create warmth.

As i said, I do as you describe left right and centre. However, even I'm not convinced it truly makes a difference- except when there's a murkiness present in the initial sound that can be progressively cleansed away, until you're left with the purer sound of the notes being held down. The reason I flutter just after virtually every pedal change (and often flutter more as the sound continues) in chordal writing is that I like to leave at least some slight lingering blurring, that often benefits from a touch of extra cleansing beyond what the primary pedal change achieved, after that change. I've experimented plenty with all kinds of pedal effects, not least fluttering as a chord decays. But the cleaner the sound you start with and the longer you leave it, the less fluttering can do. It can only subtract, not add. That requires something significant to be present in the sound (other than the notes being physically held), in order for you to go on to subtract in an audible way. If you're totally confident it's not only real but truly significant as a difference, make a recording to show the difference.

PS. If you're not playing the first chord of the pathetique into an open pedal, I can't imagine there's much to audibly subtract. I should probably stress that the change I make while playing the chord is a half-pedal- so there's more clarity than with no change but plenty of overtones still ensue. This means you have something to play around with if you do go on to flutter, in order to progressively cleanse. But start with a clean dry sound and only pedal after and all you're left with when fluttering is the very same clean sound you started out on. There's virtually no difference.

[j_menz]

Why do you think that I think it's new?  I made no such mention in the initial post that would imply that.

Sorry, the thread title "New Technique" evidently confused me. 

[faulty_damper]

But start with a clean dry sound and only pedal after and all you're left with when fluttering is the very same clean sound you started out on. There's virtually no difference.

I don't hear what you're saying but I can easily hear it on my piano.  Depress a note, apply pedal, strings sympathetically vibrate.  Maybe your piano doesn't allow for much.  Is it an upright?

[faulty_damper]

Sorry, the thread title "New Technique" evidently confused me. 

It's new if you've never heard of it before, which I'm sure many people haven't...

Until now!

[andrewkoay]

It's new if you've never heard of it before, which I'm sure many people haven't...

Until now!

Count me among the one who hasn't heard of it. I'll give it a try tomorrow! Thanks faulty_damper for your excellent contribution!

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't hear what you're saying but I can easily hear it on my piano.  Depress a note, apply pedal, strings sympathetically vibrate.  Maybe your piano doesn't allow for much.  Is it an upright?

Of course. How could I be ignorant to that, given what I said about using the pedal to grow the sound? The point is that there's a short time window in which to get the pedal down. After that, depressing it makes for less audible creation of overtones. The more resonance you start on, the more flutter pedalling can manipulate the sound by progressively subtracting overtones. But if you do conventional clean pedal changes, there's so little to subtract that there's minimal scope for difference. Fluttering works when there is something significant to take away. Pianists such as Horowitz and Nyiregyhazi who weren't afraid to blur the sounds by avoiding full pedal changes can exploit these effects as the sound continues, but traditional polite pedal changes leave minimal scope to make flutter pedalling audible. If you think what are you doing would definitely be audible to an audience and not just you, you should definitely illustrate with a recording.

[faulty_damper]

I think you and I are discussing very different things here.  I know exactly what you mean, especially in the Pathetique example and it has been discussed by Schiff or Barenboim in their masterclasses about how to execute the fp (which I think is ridiculous because it just sounds bad to my ear because I can hear that fluttering, stop-start sound.)

Pedal vibrato is something different and is beneficial early or late in the sustain.  I usually tend to start the pedal vibrato slowly and then speed up, just like a string player would, except in closing chords where I tend to slow the vibrato down.

[faulty_damper]

Count me among the one who hasn't heard of it. I'll give it a try tomorrow! Thanks faulty_damper for your excellent contribution!

You're welcome!
Tell us what you think of it when you try it!

[nyiregyhazi]

I think you and I are discussing very different things here.  I know exactly what you mean, especially in the Pathetique example and it has been discussed by Schiff or Barenboim in their masterclasses about how to execute the fp (which I think is ridiculous because it just sounds bad to my ear because I can hear that fluttering, stop-start sound.)

Pedal vibrato is something different and is beneficial early or late in the sustain.  I usually tend to start the pedal vibrato slowly and then speed up, just like a string player would, except in closing chords where I tend to slow the vibrato down.

I don't do it for fp. That requires releasing the notes first and flutttering. I flutter a little for subtle cleaning up of amassed overtones- not to artificially reduce volume faster than natural decay of an ongoing chord. It's really very subtle mostly and even I'm not convinced that every part of it can be heard by a listener. I tried the pedal flutttering late in a decaying chord (without a starting point of significant additional overtones) today and observed no difference whatsoever. You really need to upload evidence if you believe in it as you describe it. If a listener can't hear it from the first row of a concert hall, it doesn't matter - regardless of whether the pianist believes in it. If it were truly real, the great artists would have mentioned it. Fluttering doesn't make vibrato. It merely provides a means of control over any overtones that are separate from the notes being held. Volume is reduced only subtly. The flutttering allows control over clarity and projection. These subtle manipulations to how notes that were already struck are heard is vital to advanced pedalling. But vibrato? No, it's pure self - delusion. Unless you're able to demonstrate a difference via direct evidence.

[nyiregyhazi]

Just to add to that, Erwin Nyiregyhazi is one of the only pianists I've ever heard who can make a sound where he seems to be able to truly control how a sound continues after notes were already struck. Barenboim speaks of such things in masterclasses, but I've never once heard him make any truly out of the ordinary pianistic illusions. From a combination of self experimentations and observations of what Nyiregyhazi does, I've come to the conclusion that he doesn't necessarily make a pure illusion, but exercises some literal control over how notes last (by retaining so many overtones at first, that further fluttering or half pedals can substantially change what is being heard in the overtone series). In his case, he makes few traditional clean pedal changes and almost always carries overtones between pedal changes via half-pedalling. I don't think it's any coincidence that not only does he merge a lot of overtones, but that he can also seem to control sounds after they already occurred. The two are inseparable for me, if we're talking about using pedalling to manipulate sounds that are already happening. Play a chord and wait a couple of seconds and depressing the pedal scarcely changes anything at all. You can do whatever you like after a certain point and nobody will be any the wiser. Only early on after sounding a note does depressing the pedal make it seem to truly "grow" into something, via the new overtones. As soon it's clear and notably decayed, few new overtones arise when the pedal goes down- which means that the pedal can neither add nor subtract anything that will substantially affect what is already there. Play a chord into the pedal however, and any half pedalling or flutter pedalling that happens early on can make a HUGE literal difference to how the sound continues to resonate. If you accept murkiness for a while, you can subtly continue to cleanse overtones in a way that will be perfectly audible, long after the notes were sounded.

If Nyiregyhazi spoke of vibrato, I'd at least humour him (whether it were necessarily real or purely imagination on his part) for no other reason than the remarkable the way in which he seems to control sounds long after the hammer hits strings. However, sorry for being cynical, but having both tried it myself and never witnessed audible vibrato from any other pianist, I'm not going to casually accept that fluttering on a chord that has already been cleaned up (eliminating all scope for significant control over overtones) is going to make any notable difference that exists in reality. If you've found something remarkable, it's for a listener to judge whether the results are genuinely out of the ordinary, not for the pianist doing the experiment. Upload something.

[j_menz]

You can do whatever you like after a certain point and nobody will be any the wiser. Only early on after sounding a note does depressing the pedal make it seem to truly "grow" into something, via the new overtones. As soon it's clear and notably decayed, few new overtones arise when the pedal goes down- which means that the pedal can neither add nor subtract anything that will substantially affect what is already there. Play a chord into the pedal however, and any half pedalling or flutter pedalling that happens early on can make a HUGE literal difference to how the sound continues to resonate. If you accept murkiness for a while, you can subtly continue to cleanse overtones in a way that will be perfectly audible, long after the notes were sounded.

I don't disagree, but I'd note that pianos differ in their natural sustain, and in how sympathitic their strings appear to be to creating overtones. The acoustics of the room may also impact, including the impact of echoes.  On a Grand, the una corda pedal also changes the shape of the decay curve, tending to produce overtones for longer.

Personally, I think that subtlety around the point of damper contact is more effective than full up/full down - it preserves a degree of movement in the strings which appears (to my ears at least) to be more susceptible of enhancement when opened up again than a non-resonating string is to starting up.